Molded Tone Boards

[bigben]

I will have to post a pic of the last howler I made.  the transition is good but you can see glue.  I am unsure as to what the thread that kee uses. 

[FinsnFur]

The posts starting with and regarding the call you want made Ben, have been moved into their own topic.

Titled Bens custom order

[bigben]

thanks.

[Todd Rahm]

By the way Aaron I like the call on the left.  :shck:

[AWSparrows]

Thanks, Its super loud.
What do you like about it?
What about the open reed??

Aaron

[Todd Rahm]

Well I like the over all call, but its probably the wood  that really catches my eye on that call. 

No, nothing wrong with the second call....................the wood and grain just don't jump out at me I suppose, but the shape and style are fine, and that particular tone board isn't of the type that, initiated my post. 

[AWSparrows]

Ok thanks, just was curious on your thoughts and opinion.

That closed reed is gonna have to go on my lanyard. It sounds great but was too wet and is changing shape daily.
Its taking on a banana shape today.

Aaron

[vvarmitr]

I see a lot of things going down hill in the custom call business. Toneboards are one of them. If you think I'm going to pay damnert a half-a-days wage for one? KMA!!! 
It's almost like someone buying a new car & putting on a fancy grill & saying "Hey I got a customized car!" Well, does he or doesn't he? 

As for Ricks toneboards moulded or not they work & I know that Rick gets me the sound I want.

[Todd Rahm]

Hey "V",

Thanks for replying, and I agree with ya as you can see. Ain't nobody disputing Ricks calls but Rick at this time, as again I agree with ya on his calls. Just a little mix up thats all.

I seen a call a budy made today that had one of the tone boards in it, and I'll ask him if I can use the pic.  Not disputing the quality or sound, just the bulky plastic look it adds to a nice wooden barrel.

[vvarmitr]

After giving this a little more thought, I've come to the conclusion that I expect the custom calls I want to be artsy, ya know, a work of art or unique in some way. So I guess what I really want is a functional piece of art & guess this is were I get perturbed w/ a lot of the call making. Not that anyone is really making a bad call, but there is some going onward in this area that can be done.
Do I need to elaborate more or do I have you call makers pretty well to the point that ya don't care to hear any more?

[Todd Rahm]

I would like ya to elaborate, if ya don't mind and I won't be shy about joining.

I think call makers don't mind hearing I just think some don't care to participate in this type of conversation, for the simple fact that they might offend someone and in some case think they may effect the sale of their calls? 

[AWSparrows]

I would like you to elaborate more.

I realize different people like different things and I like to make calls that appeal to all. I would much rather make TRUE CUSTOM calls, made to order to someone elses specs, rather than make calls and hope someone will like them. Maybe some day I'll get to that point.
I was talking the other night with some people and this subject about molded guts came up. I was told my calls are not custom calls because of the molded tone boards. This came from a guy who makes his tone boards out of PVC pipe. Where do you draw the line on what makes a custom call custom? 
That got me thinking, I guess closed reed calls are not custom calls then either. I mean its the same thing as an open reed with a molded voice, a hand turned barrel with a production made reed stuck in it.
What's the difference? Is it because you can see the tone board on an open reed, or is it because we are sooo used to JC reeds being used in a closed reed?

Aaron

PS
I'm gonna start fooling around making my own tone boards out of wood.
What are the best woods for making them out of ??

Thanks

[Ladobe]

No call maker worth his salt will back away from threads like this one just because he is afraid folks won't buy his calls.   Sincere critique can be a very useful tool for a call maker, and he should welcome it.  Not bitching and moaning, but honest critique.   

Some of you know how little I care whether I ever sell another one of my custom calls or not.   So I'll take the bait and run with it as a spinner regardless of how it is accepted here.   If for nothing else, it will give all you call buyers plenty to "discuss".   

Like it or not, call buyers themselves promote substandard calls from a lot of the new spinners.   By passing out canned praise by the gallon on these predator forums, by continuing to buy those calls that are obviously broom handles, and by wanting high quality calls for cheap prices.

Canned praise has become almost a way of life on most of the predator calling forums.    When a new spinners first calls are offered for sale and they get no critique at all and only a bunch of back slapping, it only serves to spur them on to producing more of the same, does not promote them to learn how to do better and maybe even that it is OK for them to raise their prices to boot.   No doubt many of the new spinner's are pricing some also ran calls way too high, especially while still learning the craft and long before they have earned a name for themselves and their calls.   Don't take that wrong, anybody should try making calls that is of a mind too, whether they have any prior craft talent of not.   But they would certainly serve the craft and the sport better if they would get with a program to gain enough experience from T&E in woodcraft and field calling time to learn reed tuning so they can turn out at least average calls before they try to sell ANY of their work for ANY price. 

Call buyers get to see hundreds if not thousands of hand made calls now days to choose from, and can buy only those they feel are well enough made and finished to be worth (to them at least) what the call maker is asking for them.   If that's not a true buyers market, I don't know what is.   So you in fact voice your opinion of a spinners work even in silence by not buying calls you feel are not of the quality you prefer or are not worth the asking price.   To any spinner who can read between the lines, calls that just don't sell should tell them they either need to step up the quality of their work, or lower the price for what they are producing.

So what's a fair price?   What a spinner is willing to take and what a buyer is willing to pay I guess.   In the predator call field anyway, custom call making is mostly a break even venture at best and still with low to no wages for the time and investment involved.   Do predator call makers who in fact turn out exceptional calls and have earned their reputation deserve less than like spinners who make fine duck calls for example?   NO!   But as a newer form of hunting by mostly hard working everyday folk, the predator calls just don't bring as much as duck calls do to the so called more upper brow duck hunter crowd.   Or do predator call makers deserve to get less for their time than anyone else does doing whatever it is they do for pay?  NO!   They've made a huge investment in equipment, expensive wood and supplies, given up free time with family and friends, and the good ones spent countless unpaid hours perfecting their skills.  If they make quality calls, they certainly deserve a fair hourly wage.   I try to be more than fair when I set my prices.   But out of principle as a long time call maker who has paid his dues I'm not going to spend several hours or more over 3-4 weeks finishing a call just to sell it to what is basically a stranger for $20-$30.  If folks want one of my calls they will pay the toll I have set for it, simple as that.     

Other than having strong personal ethics, that luckily many of the new spinners have, why should they go through the extra time and expense to produce truly high end calls when the buyers won't pay a fair price for them anyway?   For some of that canned praise?

As custom predator call buyers you are in luck though, because most of the better call makers don't do it just for any money they might make.   They do it because they enjoy woodworking and building calls for other predator hunters, do the extra research and work to keep learning and understanding more to constantly improve their calls and will accept less for their time and talents to help promote the sport.   Calls made by these craftsmen are the ones you should be buying, and you should be paying them more for them IMO.

Have fun,

Larry

[keekee]

Well said Larry!


Brent

[rjl54]

I hope you guys will pardon a newcommer for jumping into this coversation.  Todd's remarks stuck a cord with me because I too share his observations.  I consider myself a hobby call maker and I've been lurking about on this site and others for the selfish purpose of gaining knowlege and tips from those with more experience.

I don't try to sell my calls.  And I don't intend to until I have gained enough skill to produce top quality open reed distress calls and howlers.   Right now, I'm struggling to consistantly machine my tone boards out of Delrin.  It's hit and miss, but I'm having fun and learning a lot.

When I fiirst started I considered buying the tone boards.  It would be easier, cheaper, and I could impress my friends quicker.  But when I slowed down from turning pretty barrels from fancy wood, I reliized that on a predator call the mouth piece or tone board WAS THE CALL.     Yeah, the barrel adds to the tone and volume, but so does your cupped hands.  I mean let's face it; without the tone board all you have is a fancy napkin holder.

I also agree about the praise.  We all like to show off our calls and have everybody oooh and aww, but between call makers and wanna-be's  we should focus on honest critique.  I want to hear what you like about a call  and even more importantly what you don't like.

So here's a couple of mine.  Rip me up!       
                                                       Randy

[Jerry Hunsley]

Nothing wrong with those babies. Very sleek looking. 

[KySongDog]

  I mean let's face it; without the tone board all you have is a fancy napkin holder.

Good one!   :roflmao:

The only thing I am interested in is DOES IT CALL IN WHAT I'M HUNTIN.  Looks are secondary to me. 

If it calls in the critters AND looks good, well, thats a bonus.

[FinsnFur]

Welcome aboard Randy. 

[Ladobe]

... a hobby call maker ...   

... I realized that on a predator call the mouth piece or tone board WAS THE CALL.  ...

...Yeah, the barrel adds to the tone and volume, but so does your cupped hands.  I mean let's face it; without the tone board all you have is a fancy napkin holder...
 
                                                       Randy

Welcome to the group Randy.   Pull up a chair - there are some really good people here.   
Hope you don't mind, but I'm going to use your post to make some points.   Please don't take any of them as anything personal.

I can pretty much guaranty everyone that all custom predator call makers are "hobby" call makers.   Either that, or they eat dirt for nourishment.   None of them are making their sole living from it.

While the reed system, whether it be enclosed/open or commercial/custom made is a key element in the final range of sounds that can be produced with it in a given call, it is not the entire call.   Even commercial toneboards/reeds (calls) have at least a rudimentary sound chamber.   More importantly, the material it is made from and the sound chamber design itself greatly increases the range of sounds that can be produced with that same reed, both in tonal quality as well as volume.   Plastic/rubber gets you by on a commercial call, even with their simple sound chambers.   But the most versatile calls with the best range of sound qualities are the ones made out a material or species of wood that enhances tonal quality with an appropriate sound chamber designed for that material or wood used.   Don't know about you folks, but I haven't seen any Stratovarius violins made out of plastic or rubber.   Cupped hands mostly direct the sounds path making it appear to increase the volume because in funnels it into a narrower path at first (same as a calls "bell"), but your hands are not a good conductor of resonance that improves either the tone or amplifies it like other materails do.

And herein lies the main "reasons" why spinners make custom calls, and predator hunters buy them.   Sure, in the right hands and in many scenarios a $5 store bought plastic wonder will call predators nearly as well as a full blown custom call costing anywhere up to 200 times more will.   So a large part of what is being bought in a custom call is just pride of ownership – no different than when buying a new rifle, new car, new house, etc.   Pride in the sounds it will produce, pride in the craftsmanship and beauty of the call.   For some folks their pride is satisfied with the commercial calls, for some calls with commercial inserts are fine, and for others only so called 100% hand made calls will do.   It's a personal thing, and no one should fault anybody for buying what they choose.

I've mentioned the reasons before why I think many spinners use molded tone boards.   So I'll add some thoughts on the commercial reed inserts for enclosed reed calls this time.   As one who had to make his own internal reeds for many years out of literally everything except the kitchen sink because no commercial reeds were available... I can assure you only a crazy person would still do it.   Takes a lot of time and the percentage that end up working as consistently well is not 100% even on a good day.   And they don't hold up anywhere near as long as the ones available today commercially do.   So its an easy choice for a spinner to stick a 40 cent reed in his call that he knows he can tune, he knows will hold up for his customer, rather than fool around making his own.   Keep in mind as the users of these "custom" calls... when you get miles out into the calling fields those beautiful call bodies ARE JUST NAPKIN HOLDERS if you have a reed fail - if you don't have easily obtained spares on hand that you can change yourself on the spot with no tools.   So having been there and done both, I don't feel my using JC reeds takes anything away from any enclosed reed custom call I build.

Looks are secondary to me.

Yeah I said that too Semp when I was younger... that is until I woke up in bed the next day after an especially wild party in the mid 60's lying next to a female creature that literally scared the living daylights out of me (Quasimodo's twin sister).   :shck:

L.

[Todd Rahm]

Good stuff Larry. While we share some of the same thoughts, your sure more snazzing speak'n then me.