Trying to learn or understand.

[pitw]

  Okay guys I have read on this forum and others where you have "leases and or clubs".  What are these and how do they make any sense?  I know I live in an alien land but I kinda/sorta thought it was hunting was handled the same everywhere.  I sent a message to Huntncrve this morning and it got me thinking about this subject more and I'm copying it to here so you get an idea of how permission is handled by me.

   I was sitting in the house this morning when the wife started being a wife and then Mandy showed up and started acting like her mother so I left.  Went to Czar to the serve to get smokes and a coke.  I am talking [as usual] with a couple fellows when a cantakerous old fart shows up.  He asks if I'm going to be there long and takes off again.  He comes back and hands me a bag with three Antelope steaks which floors the 4 guys I'm BSing with.  Then a fellow is driving by and spys me and pulls in with an old chev 4x4 that looks bad but runs great.  He climbs out saying "Barry I had a 2 ton Bull die night before last and the coyotes got him over half cleaned up.  Get the "L" down to my place and get them bastards".  "okay" , I say "and can I take my icelanders down to hunt there too".  Sure is the answer upon which one of the guys standing there asks "Can I come and hunt on your place too"? "No" was the answer and I thought the old rancher beside me was going to piss himself laughing.  Another old truck pulls up and out gets Murray who says he has some pigs for sale so I bought three on the spot with cash for $140 each and he's going to bring them up for me to finish here[they already weigh 275lbs so that is good.  The old rancher who owns some 20,000 acres says Barry you best be getting some coyotes and deer off my place too and turns to the other poor bugger and says "No not you".  I went in the serve after 2 hours to pay for my coke and bag of chips only to find that someone else had already paid for it.

[Bills Custom Calls]

Well thats kinda how I used to get permission and some places I still get that way

A lease is where I would pay a landowner a determined amount of money to hunt his land and he can't give anyone else permission to hunt it till the lease expires
But I could bring whoevere I wanted to on his property

[pitw]

A lease is where I would pay a landowner a determined amount of money to hunt his land and he can't give anyone else permission to hunt it till the lease expires
But I could bring whoevere I wanted to on his property

That would be "Paid hunting" up here and illegal .  How did that get started?

[Bopeye]

A lease is where I would pay a landowner a determined amount of money to hunt his land and he can't give anyone else permission to hunt it till the lease expires
But I could bring whoevere I wanted to on his property

That would be "Paid hunting" up here and illegal .  How did that get started?

That's just how it works now Barry. It's a dang far site from the hunting of my youth. Cheapest lease I can get on around here and not be full of maggots is $600/year, plus I got to help the farmer due some chores. HE CAN BITE ME!!
He use to let me hunt for nothing, but very few do it like that anymore. They all want paid for you to come on their property. 

I know several guys that gave up hunting due to lack of places to hunt anymore and they didn't have the money for lease dues. It is one of the key ingredients to the demise of hunting here. Just like England. 

[Frogman]

Barry,

Years ago when I was young we never heard of hunting leases.  We pretty much hunted on private property where we had permission to hunt.  It still works that way on private property.  Here in WV pulp and paper companies like Mead/Westvaco have bought up huge tracts of land.  Much of this property is old abandoned farm land that the paper companies have purchased.  They make this property available for hunting by leasing out tracts of the property to groups of hunters.  They lease this property for about $4.50/acre/per year.  I have one of these tracts leased with 1732 acres in a very remote area of WV.  This area has nearly 3 miles of riverfront, the Little Kanawha River is our northern boundary, quite a bit of pines that the paper company has planted for later harvesting, quite a bit of hardwoods, and several areas that have been recently timbered.  This area holds lots of game.  Especially rabbits, squirrels, grouse, turkeys, whitetail deer, coyotes, and a few bobcats, and even a few black bear.  Since it is beyond my means to pay the full amount for the lease ($7,794.00) we formed a club of other hunters who also wanted hunting access to this property.  We call our group "Lonesome Pine Hunt Club".  There are 40 members in the club who each pay $200.00 per year to hunt on the lease.  This gives us the right to post the property, hunt, camp, fish, and otherewise do as we wish on the property with a few restrictions.  We can not build permanent residences on the property, we can not build permanent tree stands using nails in the trees, we can not use ATVs on the property.  It is basically ours except that Mead/Westvaco can harvest the timber as they please, they also lease the mineral rights as there is some gas and oil on the property.  We can put up gates to restrict access to the property, we can plant food plots to attract more game, we have built a small shelter where some of the members camp during deer season, etc.

The photos of the "Schoolhouse Cave" I recently posted about were taken on our lease.

I hope this helps you better understand "hunting leases" you read about on the forum.  I expect it is not much different in other areas of the East.  Don't hesitate to ask questions.  Sometimes I don't explain things very well??


Jim

[HuntnCarve]

Here in PA we're fortunate that there are millions of acres of "Public Hunting grounds".  They call them "GameLands".  Granted, it not might be the "Primo" spot for hunting, but no one can chase you off of them!  The majority of them require some leg work to get into them, as the access roads are closed to motorized vehicles.  I've found that most hunters don't stray too far from their cars.  So a little hike, and you're hunting undisturbed. 
In the cities in the Southeastern part of PA, clubs are forming that obtain permission to hunt, and remove deer from the congested areas. -Where the deer population is booming!  They typically have insurance policies that cover any liabilities that might occur while hunting on the landowners property.  It makes the landowners feel more secure in this day of legal nightmares and frivilous lawsuits.  I am fortunate enough to be friends with a couple of fellows that belong to such clubs.  I hunt as a guest of theirs, using the doe tags I've purchased, to help ease the deer population on their appointed grounds.  I think all they pay is $100/year to be a club member.  And that goes towards the purchase of insurance.  The club is typically pretty small in size (a dozen members), and somewhat exclusive?  -But it is what it has come down to if you want to hunt around the cities. 
I did notice that the "leasing" of private hunting land is starting to show up in the more remote areas of the State.  I really don't blame the farmers, as they are just trying to survive, and pay the taxes.  It is sad that it's gone that route.  As a kid I can remember just asking a farmer for permission to hunt his property.  He'd ask you "where you from?"  "You're not going to shoot any of my cows or buildings?, etc.  Then he'd proceed to tell you where he saw a flock of turkeys working the sugar bush, or a bunch of rabbits sunning along a tractor path.  I always tried to offer them any game I might have harvested, or do some kind of chore to establish my welcome.  And I always respected their land!   Sadly I've seen that farmer pass away, or his land be sold and developed as the years have gone by.  Just the way things go in these parts.

Dave

[timbertoes]

Yep, I know of two landowners who will let you hunt Deer, Turkey for free. I am not one of the Deer hunters, but I will be there for the leftovers!

[alscalls]

I payed Cash for my farm and still have to pay a property tax each year in order to keep the land I paid cash for....even though I paid sales tax on it when I bought it........

Aggravating to say the least as I can not even get them to gravel the public road going into it as my property tax does not pay for that ......It comes from a Gas tax......   I buy gas, but this still gives me no leverage in getting the road fixed....
So what am I paying taxes for???      Not sure!! I dont see any of it going to work as it should.

Some landowners make up for this stupid crap by leasing out their land to pay the taxes and keep up the roads themselves and the lease covers the cost until such time he can make a profit from selling it or cutting the timber....
I had hoped to build a house on mine and just live there and hunt......But it is getting to the point that I may have to sell out just to survive before the tax man takes it from me.....even though I paid cash...taxes and all.......Clear as mud aint it....

[Huntinbull]

Here in Ohio, if a landowner charges you money to use his property, he is liable for your safety and welfare as well as your actions while on his property. Too many landowners see the money that can be made and do not look far enough into the future. You should let the landowners know that by signing a FREE permission slip, they are released from liability.

Huntinbull

[pitw]

Thanks for the answers guys  .  I think I understand now and what you are basically saying is.  There are too many people, big corporations find new ways to screw you and life as I know it is almost over . 

Al I understand the tax part far to well  .

[alscalls]

I dont mind taxes Barry.......I do mind the results of those taxes......They tried to tax me last year for 22 acres that I did not even own.......so I asked for my deed and started writing a check......   They would not fall for it....

[coyote101]

A lot of the places I hunt around here are leased, many to guys from out of state. Most of them are deer hunters, some also hunt turkeys. It would be very difficult for me to get their permssion to hunt deer, but I have found it is pretty easy to get permission to hunt coyotes. They aren't around except for the time around deer season, and they want the coyotes gone. Even many places that are hunted by local guys, where I couldn't get permission to hunt anything else, I can hunt coyotes. I just stay away during the deer season, or turkey season if someone else hunts then. I have access to four to five thousand acres to hunt coyotes right now and may pick up about nine hundred more in the next week or so. I can only hunt deer on a couple hundred of those acres.

Pat

[pitw]

How did this lease hunting thing get started?  I can totally understand farmers wanting paid for access, but up here the crown[government] owns all the animals[so they think].  I find it strange that they can legislate hunting licenses and tag alotments but not have a place to hunt them.  Right now we have a movement to get into this type of thing up here and it all started because of guides/outfitters trying to get land to make money off my/our animals.

[alscalls]

Barry.......Fight it with every ounce of your being....We have lost a LOT of public hunting ground around here due to leased ground.........Our DNR gave up the right to hunt 150,000 in 5 counties to a hunt club.......and it really sucks for the local economy and the hunting community.........Fight man I aint kidding .....

[FinsnFur]

It's actually became a business also. As sad as it seems.

A guy leases a plot of wooded acreage and then releases it to numerous others, getting his lease money back and actually quadrupling it.

Or they act as a guide, and charge $250 a head and you can imagine the revenue that would generate over a 1 year lease.

I think the original land owners are leasing more down here due to property taxes, which have been on the rise for a long time.
A farmer has 10,000 acres which only has 6,000 tillable on it. Well he'd pray like heck that his crops fed his live stock and or harvested enough to pay the taxes, but the 6,000 acres of wooded acreage has no income.
No income being generated from it, but he still has to pay those rising taxes.

A pandemic.

[iahntr]

Growing up you knew everybody in a pretty large radius, and if you didn't already have permission to hunt the ground, if you wanted to, you basically went up to the door, knocked, and 9 times out of 10, they said sure go ahead. Now if you'd try that, most places would tell ya somebody is already hunting it.  When I first moved to where I live now, I found a real small area of public hunting ground that it seemed nobody else was really using. I hunted that ground for a few years and shot a decent buck off of it every year, but never really saw any big bucks. The last year I hunted there, more people were starting to use it, and when you got there in the mornings, when it was still dark, there might be one or several vehicles sitting there already, and you would never know where anybody was at. On different occasions I'd be sitting in a tree and have squirrel hunters come up on me. Not a great place to be when ya got people shootin .22's up into trees. Several times I had families going for a little nature walk through the timber, many times at dusk. I know everybody has the right to use these areas, after all, it's  public ground. But, I know I would not be taking my family for a walk in the woods during hunting season, especially towards dusk. Some guys that I got to know and become good friends with were hunting this ground, which was owned by three different farmers. Well these farmers were approached by a group of people that wanted to hunt this ground, and offered to pay to do so. The farmers gave my friends first chance at leasing this ground, and so they approached me to see if I wanted to be a part of it. If you would've asked me several years ago, I said I'd never pay to hunt in my own State. Well the way my hunting on public ground was going, I decided to join in with them. Now myself and 8 other guys lease this ground. I do have one other spot across the section (basically a mile away) that I also hunt that we don't have to pay anything for. Some farmers may still let you on there ground for coyotes when the other hunting seasons aren't going on. (we can hunt coyotes year round in Iowa.)
I don't necessarily like it either, but I see how it started, and why it happens, and I guess I can't blame the farmers for doin it. I either fight the crowds, hunt over hunted areas with less game,,,,, or pay for a good place to hunt. 

[Jimmie in Ky]

Folks down here found out about westvaco leasing ground as htey were in other states. And local farmers owning bottom ground were aproached by big wigs from westvaco about waterfowl huniting leases. This was back in the 70's. By the mid 80's it was a common thing to find yourself shut out of property you had hunted all your life.

Today there are numerous groups and individuals capitalizing on this with hunting preserves. If you watch any hunting programs you have seen hunts on many of the larger ones. Hundreds of thousands of acres here in Ky are now off limits unless you have a pocket full of cash to throw away.

But I can't blame farmers with rising tax rates and lower crop prices each year. Farmers are even going to have to change how they do things in oredr to stay afloat the way things are at present. Jimmie