Scent Lok

[bigben]

I was wondering that if over time of using a certain method will it become less effective if you use it in the same general for years?  I have only been calling for a short time and haven't been using the same methods I once did when I first started so lacked the knowledge to know yet.  and was wondering if one of the more experienced hunters might have known the answer.   

[THO Game Calls]

I'm not ignoring you Rich, I am just swamped in the shop today.   I will get back to you this evening.

Al

[Rich Higgins]

Hey Ben, coyotes do learn to avoid sights, scents and sounds that they have had unpleasant experiences with. They can learn in several different ways.. from direct experience , from  what the biologists call observational learning, or they can be taught by a family or group member. An older coyote will intercept a younger coyote that is about to do something dangerous and chase him from the immediate vicinity while biting it's fanny. That behavior is called "nip and herd" and young coyotes learn to avoid a number of things, such as rattlesnakes, traps, predator calls, without having to actually experience snake bite , being trapped or being shot.
The more pressure that is brought to the coyote, the more fear and alarm associated with one of the 3 S's, the faster they learn.
Scott Huber believes that because so many coyotes approach electronic calls and survive the encounter and learn from the experience they can and eventually will associate the electronic "buzz" or white noise with a human ambush and e callers will become less effective than handcalls.
Rate of incidence or amount of pressure is key. Dog breeders know that it takes 3 generations to instill a genetic behavior or trait.
The Spokane Indians practiced animal husbandry and they told the explorer Frasier that it took 3 generations to domesticate their coyotes they used for pack animals, food and hair.
Three years of sustained heavy pressure on a given population will likely "set" a behavior such as avoiding any kind of distress calls.
That is precisely what has happened in several management units in Arizona.

[securpro]

Rich, I think I paid somewhere between $200 and $250 for my Dream Season suit. Well worth the money IMO, very comfortable and useful with my hunting style.

[bigben]

Thanks for the reply rich.  do you think this would also be the same for fox as well to an extent?

[Rich Higgins]

I'm sorry, Ben.
I don't much of anything about fox.

[KySongDog]

Three years of sustained heavy pressure on a given population will likely "set" a behavior such as avoiding any kind of distress calls.
That is precisely what has happened in several management units in Arizona.

Does that mean those coyotes only hunt what they can see and/or smell? 

[alscalls]

I say if it gives ya more confidence...... have at it.....
If you get to go..... go with what ya got.......  Sometimes ya win..... sometimes ya loose..... but ya went...

[THO Game Calls]

Rich,

If I understand you correctly, coyotes have adapted to accept a certain level of human scent as being non threatening.   

Surely, coyotes, at least on the east coast encounter human scent every week of the year, and in many seasons, almost every day.   They live with it and it does not send them into a negative response mode.

If that is correct, then your methods of getting into their bedrooms with scent suppression clothing, lures and attractants, will over time, condition them to accept less human scent than they do currently before deciding that the human is close enough to present a real danger.

The long term consequences of this could impact us all greatly as follows.

Coyotes will be forced to move deeper into more remote areas to remain feeling secure.   By moving into these remote areas, and not venturing out of them because of the ever present human scent they have been conditioned to believe is hazardous to their well being, they will stress their safe habitat to the point food sources decline, disease takes route, and coyote populations decline to cope with the reduced food supply.

Once this happens, fish and game departments will be put in a precarious position.  Unlike deer or elk, for which they can set harvest to include only antlered animals, or turkey where only bearded birds are allowed (a small percentage of hen turkeys do have beards) the only option for fish and game departments will be to introduce seasons to protect the coyote, and possibly bag limits.

While seasons wont make many happy, they can be lived with, but bag limits could have a disastrous effect on your club hunts and contest hunts.

You posted that the coyote will adapt in as little as 3 generations, and wrote earlier that they had adapted in Arizona (in less than 18 years) to pressured calling in WMU 10.   

It seems entirely possible that by suggesting

"Predator callers had better become as adaptable as their quarry and learn to use mist, lure/attractants and scent control/suppression with advanced tactics and techniques.

that we could bring about long term negative effects on coyote hunting withing our own lifetimes.

[Rich Higgins]

Does that mean those coyotes only hunt what they can see and/or smell? 

Semp,
Ron Day is the AZG&F predator biologist. Ron is also an avid predator caller and a member of Arizona Predator Callers.
Ron always carries a CritterCall PeeWee in his shirt pocket and uses it at any opportunity.
Ron spends a lot of time in GMU10 especially as antelope fawning nears.
Ron drives and hikes the entire unit glassing for antelope and coyotes.
When he spots coyotes mousing or moving about the unit he first blows a short series on the PeeWee. Ron says that the coyotes immediately run in the opposite direction. That is a rather extreme response and probably has something to do with exposure. Coyotes that have habituated to distress calls usually just ignore them.
I don't know if they ignore only artificially produced distress cries and respond to real cries.
Wouldn't surprise me.
Tim Lewis' video "Coyote Rage"   has a clip in which he sets up a stand overlooking a meadow that has three coyotes mousing in it.
The foxpro calls all three in. He shoots the first coyote and the other two make the mad dash to the right, under a fence and into cover.
The next day, on the way home, they set up the same place. Two coyotes are mousing in the meadow. When the FoxPro starts the furthest coyote heads for it at a lope. The nearest coyote intercepts it and nip and herds it to their right, under the fence and into cover. Interesting video.
It seems that the coyotes in both scenarios go about their normal business until they hear a predator call.

[Rich Higgins]

f I understand you correctly, coyotes have adapted to accept a certain level of human scent as being non threatening.   

Surely, coyotes, at least on the east coast encounter human scent every week of the year, and in many seasons, almost every day.   They live with it and it does not send them into a negative response mode.

Both of those statements are correct within a very narrow window.
Proximity and urgency determine the coyotes perception of threat.
The nose identifies location and distance.
Coyotes go about their normal routines surrounded by human scent that originates at a safe distance, but when the nose detects a human in close proximity then the urgency changes and they act and react differently just as they react differently to a gunshot at a quarter mile away than  to a gunshot a few feet away.

Concerning the rest of your post, Al, at least you didn't say that if I call  coyotes to a camera in city limits without shooting them then eventually the coyotes will begin eating children.
PM 2 or 3 years ago.

[THO Game Calls]

From PhD to Politician all in one thread.

Christ, just answer the question 

Don't make Oriely you - this is a no spin zone bucko   

As for coyotes eating children, I don't really have a problem with that.   They can start with my 16 year old.   I'll even tie a pork chop around his neck if you think it will help.

[KySongDog]

Concerning the rest of your post, Al, at least you didn't say that if I call  coyotes to a camera in city limits without shooting them then eventually the coyotes will begin eating children.
PM 2 or 3 years ago.

I think I remember that.   Wasn't that the "Urban Coyotes" thread in '08?  About the coyote in the playground.  That thread got a lot of comments.   

[Okanagan]

From PhD to Politician all in one thread.

Christ, just answer the question 

THO, what was the question you posted?  Maybe I missed it but I didn't see one question mark in the entire lengthy string of suppositions. 

There are at least six "if - then" suppositions, each built on the previous speculation.  I.e if we call coyotes in their cover, then they will move deeper etc.  If they move deeper then their food supply will decline, they will get disease etc.  If they deplete food supply and get disease, then coyote population will decline.   If coyote populations decline, then the game dept. will be in a precarious position.  If Game dept. is in precarious... etc. etc.

There's something going on with this post, but it isn't a question.   

[Okanagan]

Concerning the rest of your post, Al, at least you didn't say that if I call  coyotes to a camera in city limits without shooting them then eventually the coyotes will begin eating children.
PM 2 or 3 years ago.

I think I remember that.   Wasn't that the "Urban Coyotes" thread in '08?  About the coyote in the playground.  That thread got a lot of comments.   

Yes, that was part of the frantic effort to discredit the excellent photos of coyotes that Rich called to a Minaska and posted on PMS.  The whole point was to smear Higgins and the photos by saying that he was endangering children by taking pictures of called coyotes.  It was hilarious hogwash, pure propaganda masquerading as responsible concern.  The "save the children" posters contradicted themselves totally and looked like idiots to anyone familiar with coyotes and calling.

[5 SHOTS]

I could be mistaken, but, it seems to me the picture that caused the uproar was taken in a park. That was why they were jumping on him about kids being eaten.

[Okanagan]

I could be mistaken, but, it seems to me the picture that caused the uproar was taken in a park. That was why they were jumping on him about kids being eaten.

You are correct that it was the excuse they used to jump on him.  It is baloney, and those who started the accusations know it is baloney.  Their intent was to put doubt about it in the minds of casual readers who did not think it through carefully, and they succeeded.

I read their stuff at the time and there was no sustainable logic that taking a picture of a coyote in a park equates with causing coyotes to eat children.  There may be a surface fallacy of kids and coyotes in the same general area but as soon as we examine the elements of calling a coyote, the facts go strongly in favor that calling coyotes and not killing them makes them even more wary of humans.

We can't have it both ways:  that calling coyotes conditions them to be wary of humans, and that calling coyotes makes them seek out humans to eat.  If calling coyotes and not shooting them conditions them to come to humans, then contest callers would call the same spot every day till they had lots of coyotes showing up, and then shoot them on contest day.  Taking a kid along on the stand, or having a kid as a decoy doesn't change the outcome.

We might condition coyotes to eat children if we put food in sandboxes, etc. but food nor any other kind of reward is not involved in this calling.  When a coyote only gets fooled and scared by a predator calling human, he does not consider not getting shot by that human a positive experience he wants to enjoy again.

We can rehash the topic if anyone wants.   

[THO Game Calls]

You are correct, there was no question in my last post.   The question was in a previous post, which, instead of answering, was deflected and redirected to something that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.  In addition, Mr. Higgins attempts to associate me with the group of individuals who attacked him on PM for calling coyotes in a park, which of course I had nothing to do with, but it has however served his agenda in getting the subject changed.

But hey, it's cool.   I'm just a coyote hunter, not a predator professional   

[KySongDog]

After re-reading all 57 replies to this thread, it appears to me Higgins answered your question posted in your reply #37.  Was there another one? 

[Rich Higgins]

Actually I posted the photo after several heated posts that stated if I continued to call coyotes to a camera within city limits they would lose their fear of man and begin attacking children .
Scott Francom and I drove out to the desert, called in a coyote that Scott shot then drove to a small rural town and posed with the coyote outside of the playground of an elementary school. You can see that I did not actually enter the playground. The fence borders pristine desert and is outside city limits.
I thought it was funny. Some didn't.