Seen Lighterknot post this on another forum and found it very interesting. Of course coyote hunters already new this!!! :huh:
The long-awaited ruling regarding allegations of false advertising by ALS, the manufacturer of Scent Lok clothing, has been issued in U.S. Federal Court. The law firm of Heins, Mills & Olson issued this release on their website:
On May 13, 2010, United States Federal District Judge Kyle found that ALS, the manufacturer and seller of Scent Lok clothing, and Cabela's and Gander Mountain, both of which sell Scent Lok and their own private-label clothing using Scent Lok technology, falsely advertised the ability of their Scent Lok clothing to eliminate odor. The Court found that “Defendants have published countless advertisements†almost all of which “utilize the slogans ‘odor-eliminating technology’ or ‘odor-eliminating clothing.’†The Court further found that the experts agreed that the Scent Lok clothing “cannot eliminate odor, even when new.†The Court held that all advertisements that used the words “odor-eliminating technology,†“odor-eliminating clothing,†“eliminates all types of odor,†“odor elimination,†“remove all odor,†“complete scent elimination,†“scent-free,†“works on 100% of your scent 100% of the time,†“all human scent,†“odor is eradicated,†and graphics demonstrating that human odor cannot escape the carbon-embedded fabric are all false statements as a matter of law. In addition, the Court found claims that the Scent Lok clothing could be “reactivated†to “like new†or “pristine†condition to be false as a matter of law.
The Court will issue an injunction to prevent Defendants from further false advertising.
The Minnesota case is now ready for trial. The remaining issues in the Minnesota case are the amount of damages to be paid to each plaintiff and the award of attorneys' fees and costs to plaintiffs' attorneys.
Because the Court earlier denied Plaintiffs' motion for class certification, Plaintiffs in the Minnesota case are only able to recover damages for their own purchases. However, the injunction against false advertising will benefit all future consumers of Scent Lok products in Minnesota.
Source Scent Lok (http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/big-buck-zone/2010/05/scent-lok-showdown)
It probably really does eliminate all human odor, and they are publicizing the alleged false advertising scheme to eliminate this stuff from being used in large prison breaks, or by convicts in man hunts. :alscalls:
It's about time this started happening. A little truth in advertising would ruin some of these hunting product companies. It might even make some of the e-caller folks quit exaggerating their calls abililties. Wonder what Faux pravada would do? :laf:
I never did really believe some of those claims but have met some people who swear by them, maybe now some of these Pro- Staffers can fess up? :readthis: cc
Who was it that said there is a sucker born every minute?
You can sell anything if you can convince a body it works. And what more gullable class of folks than hunters who are always looking for the magic bullet. All we have to do is look in the mirror to find such folks. We are always looking for the better call or easier method ourselves. Jimmie
:highclap: its about d_ _ N time i knew that stuff was a bunch of B S i know a bunch of deer hunters around here that are gona be heart broken :hahaha: i told them so they thoght i was to tight to buy any :biggrin: makes you wonder how much of that other crap is B S like deer lures and other highly advertised stuff :confused:
So you're telling me that's a bunch of Scent Crock! :shock2:
Anybody who's ever been to deer camp and hunted next to a guy wearing a scent loc suit who ate franks and beans the night before could of told you they dont work.
:alscalls: :alscalls: good one THO i havent thought of that :laf: :alscalls:
CCP sent this post to me and I appreciate it.
They should exact stiff penalties for false advertising.... the claim that the clothing eliminates human scent.
However the companies should continue to advertise the products as scent suppression clothing and educate their customers how to suppress their odors with combination products.
If I could afford it all of my hunting clothes would be Scent Loc.
I always said that, "fishing lures aren't designed to catch fish, they are designed to catch fishermen".
Same thing with a lot of this hunting stuff!
Jim
Jim, that is an interesting statement.
It seems to imply that you believe that fishing lures don't work... they don't catch fish.
I thought that all successful tournament fisherman used lures.
Rich,
I know lots of lures catch fish. We used to do very well with Rapalas, and licorice flavored worms. I have bought lots of others that I never had any success with. My point is that marketings first objective is to sell product. Truthfullness is usually a low priority. My comment was just a way to state that.
Jim
QuoteDr. Miller said two things in his affidavit that he put in class. He said one. I don’t even think I even have to do testing. I’m an activated carbon expert. I pulled apart their liner. Remember, they use one liner. They put all different camouflage on the outside, but they only use one liner. I pulled it apart. I looked at it. There is spaces between the carbon. Carbon has no magnetic pull. If the odor doesn’t touch the carbon , it can’t stick to the carbon.
He looked at that and he saidâ€"and then he put it under a microscope and he counted the little things and he said 27 percent of the surface area has the little carbon dots , meaning that 73 percent has a place where odor would never come in contact with carbon. He said I can tell you as a Ph.D. who works in activated carbon there is no way this can eliminate odor. This thing can’t reduce odor if it doesn’t touch it.
Scent Loc clothing is very well made that is the only draw I have ever had to the product but not well enough to justify the the prices. The two suits I had were extremely hot and made me into a walking water balloon. I think the extremely tight weave in the fabric/liner creates some scent blocking same as wearing a rubber suit would.
Test have shown over and over carbon and coconut carbon can not be reactivated in the low temps of a dryer. it takes 200 plus degrees to do this. Once the carbon is exposed to the air it starts accumulating scent on the carbon particles and more than likely before we even buy it the carbon is saturated and cant absorb anymore scent. So with no way to reactivate it the carbon is useless to us as hunters and just adds another expense.
The biggest real benefit I think the carbon suits do is make one more aware of there scent and take more preventative measures on scent control before going afield.
Here is a video of a bloodhound tracking a guy wearing Scent Loc clothes, rubber boots, rubber gloves, and scent spray over a half mile and finds him 15 ft up a tree in about 6 minutes.
Scent Loc might reduce scent some but it sure doesn't eliminate it.
Scent Loc vs Bloodhound (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXp3kv8fs_0)
Richard, thank you for the tutorial.
The PHDs testimony was a shocker.
Semp thanks for the link.
I'm absolutely convinced of the effectiveness of scent suppression, as opposed to scent elimination, in a hunting/calling scenario.
In 1987 I began doing field studies, on the effectiveness, or lack of, on combinations of scent control/suppression and cover /ambience
scents and I have drawn specific conclusions based on my experiences over the years with those concepts combined with the misting concept.
In a hunting scenario we do not have to eliminate our scent to avoid detection and alarming animals downwind from us. We simply have to alter their perception of their interpretation process during the analysis portion of the olfactory process.
I know that sounds like mumbo-jumbo but it does have a scientific basis and extensive anecdotal evidence. I have written an article explaining such and I will shop it around sometime in the future.
I have never used ScentLoc but I bought into their advertising claims because the technology was developed by the military which has done considerable research on defeating guard dogs noses.(I was told by a police dog handler that the Israeli military has developed a chemical compound that completely shuts down a dogs ability to smell or process scent molecules. The Gov't will keep that one top secret.)
Does anyone know if the military surplus chem suits such as this are also ineffective? http://www.armynavydeals.com/asp/products_details.asp?SKU=BrtChmWarStOL&catid=1241&ItemName=British
If this statement is true
"Once the carbon is exposed to the air it starts accumulating scent on the carbon particles and more than likely before we even buy it the carbon is saturated and cant absorb anymore scent."
it seems the carbon in the military clothing would also be saturated before it is even used?
J.D. Priatt is convinced of the effectiveness of the ScentLoc clothing. Has the company changed anything since the lawsuit?
http://forum.finsandfur.net/index.php?topic=13988.0
QuoteIf this statement is true
"Once the carbon is exposed to the air it starts accumulating scent on the carbon particles and more than likely before we even buy it the carbon is saturated and cant absorb anymore scent."
it seems the carbon in the military clothing would also be saturated before it is even used?
QuoteAt the factory, chemical suits are vacuum-packed and heat-sealed in nylon foil. An outer plastic bag provides additional protection against exposure to harmful substances. A reusable, sealable plastic storage bag is packed with each item. The coat bag is folded in with the coat. The trouser bag is packed in the trouser cargo pocket. The chemical suit has a shelf life of five years if unopened.
The chemical suit can be worn in a contaminated environment for 24 hours. In addition, chemical suit users must keep track of how long the suit has been out of its original packaging bag. The limit for wearing the suit is 45 days total. Once the suit is taken out of its bag, it's good for a maximum of 120 days. After any of these limits have been reached, the chemical suit is good only for training. Such overlimit suits are turned in and FOR TRAINING ONLY is stenciled on the outer surface.
So even the military's state of the art suits can only last a maximum of 120 days once taken out of the bag then Scent Loc doesn't stand a chance more than one hunting season at best.
I have had and still do from time to time have a coyote come down wind with no effects but have more times than not have them bolt. The times I have had them not respond negatively from down wind I was not wearing any scent Loc or any other type scent killer or cover scent. Someone in the same stand wearing Scent Loc may claim it was the suit.
QuoteJ.D. Priatt is convinced of the effectiveness of the ScentLoc clothing. Has the company changed anything since the lawsuit?
it maybe that JD may have them as a sponsor or trying to get them as a sponsor? I dont know but it looked like all 3 were wearing a $350.00 Scent Loc suit. So either they truly believe or Scent Loc sent them a suit sponsoring them.
I dont think they have change anything except the last lawsuit in 2010 they settled out of court to 6 plaintiffs. So they have at least learned to keep the court documents out of the public's view.
We all know that a seasoned coyote hunter doesn't get busted by scent on 90 + % of his sets simply because they setup correctly. So my question would be,Is it really worth the Initial price? excess heat sweat? extra sprays? special showers? to kill those few coyotes that come from the wrong location and bust us each year?
You will never ever fool an animals nose with those gimmicks!
Look at drug dogs and how minute drug odors are, yet they smell them every time, even when they are heavily packaged in all sorts of plastic, foil and coffee.
Deer and elk have noses similar to dogs. Does anyone really think they can fool them with some expensive spray on spritzer or by wearing a charcoal suit????? All the scent crap on the market is a huge kick in the ass (not to mention wallet!) from scent manufacturers to ignorant sportsmen.
How do you get the human scent out of your breath, your nose, your butt crack, your boots, your scalp etc. Yeah sure, some of it works and helps us smell better to OUR weak sense of smell, but you CAN'T cover up your scent no matter what you do.
I don't care what you wear or what you spray on your clothes, person, or gear...., if you don't properly hunt the wind, you are going to get busted by game.
I think PT Barnum said it best..., that quote still works today for most hunters with a fresh Cabela's catalog and a credit Card! :alscalls:
Foteology, please do not take offense at this next question. I am sincerely interested in an honest answer.
Specifically what do you base your statement upon?
Are you passing along something that you have read repeatedly or have you ever conducted your own experiments with scent control products and coyotes', deer or hog's reactions to them and you are passing along the results of your personal research?
Rich, I'm not ignoring you I'll respond to your post later today because with my lack of typing skills it will take me awhile. :laf:
Rich,
Based on science (I've been educated beyond my intelligence :wink: ) and personal observation in the hunting fields.
Quote from: CCP on February 16, 2011, 07:10:10 PMTest have shown over and over carbon and coconut carbon can not be reactivated in the low temps of a dryer. it takes 200 plus degrees to do this. Once the carbon is exposed to the air it starts accumulating scent on the carbon particles and more than likely before we even buy it the carbon is saturated and cant absorb anymore scent. So with no way to reactivate it the carbon is useless to us as hunters and just adds another expense.
Yup! It's already absorbed all it can while in the factory before it ever gets to the store shelf.... which wasn't as much as the claims has alluded as per the good Dr.'s analysis.
Also, in order to re-activate activated-carbon, it must undergo a process called Pyrolysis. To fully re-activate saturated activated-carbon, you must heat it to approximately 800 degrees C or 1,472 degrees F (not 200 degrees), in a controlled atmosphere of low oxygen concentration to reduce the possibility of combustion.
This is scientific fact and is even stated in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers â€" Engineering and Design, Adsorption Design Guide, Design Guide No. DG1110-1-2, if you’d like to check it out for yourself. This fact is not however mentioned on any of the popular scent elimination clothing manufacturers’ websites.... :wo:
One of the most popular scent elimination clothing manufactures instructs consumers to simply place worn garments in a common household clothes dryer for 20 to 30 minutes to re-active the carbon in the garment. The average temperature generated by a clothes dryer does not even come close to being able to generate the extreme temperatures necessary to drive out contaminants absorbed in the many micro pores and channels of activated-carbon. In fact, most residential clothes dryers only heat up to a temperature that is well under 200 degrees F.
Those of you, whom use water filters or air filters in your homes, think about it. Why can’t you just boil your filters in hot water or throw them in the oven or microwave for a few minutes to re-activate the carbon filter media. You can’t..... You don’t own special multi million-dollar pyrolysis thermal regeneration equipment that produces enough heat to re-activate carbon. Therefore, you have to buy new filters every now and then.
Re-activating carbon for industrial uses is big business. Type in the words “activated-carbon†in your favorite Internet search engine and you will see what I’m talking about here. In order to fully reactivate the activated-carbon in one of the many scent elimination garments on the market, you might as well just throw the garment in your campfire, because the extreme heat necessary to re-activate the carbon would likely destroy the garment anyway. :laf:
Forgive my sarcasm, but I tend to get irritated when I see good folks getting duped. And as a class, I think hunters are a pretty good bunch. So as a product, I think all the activated-carbon scent elimination clothing products on the market are nothing more than gimmicks!
I do not believe, based on sound science, these garments are even effective the first time you use it. Think about it. Each garment would have to be manufactured and placed in a sealed, scent proof bag when shipped and remain sealed on the shelf at retail stores. And of course, we know this simply isn't so.....
From the minute the clothing is manufactured, it begins to adsorb “stink†and continues to adsorb “stink†while awaiting an ignorant, misinformed consumer to purchase it. It is likely that the activated-carbon contained in the garment is already completely saturated with “stink†upon being purchased.
Many of the scent proof garment manufacturers somewhat acknowledge this, in an attempt to bring some legitimacy to their product. They recommend that you immediately wash and re-activate garments by placing them in a clothes dryer as soon as the product is purchased. Funny, they also happen to recommend their own brand of laundry detergent that is special made for these special garments..... :wink:
As I explained above, washing and drying the garment is merely an exercise in futility. At best, the only way these garments could be manufactured and utilized effectively would be if they were designed for one time use. In other words, they would have to be disposable.
The military actually uses activated-carbon suits as a kind of chemical protection garment, but they’re a single-use, disposable garment and not intended for multiple washings.
Here is something else you should consider before purchasing one of these products: activated-carbon’s adsorption effectiveness when used in an air filter application becomes greatly reduced when it is wet. So what happens when you sweat during those humid early season bow hunts? That’s right, your clothing gets wet and becomes even less effective.
So why the craze? Why were so many hunters rushing out to purchase these garments, when the science-based fact is that they don’t work?
As I mentioned earlier, consumer ignorance is one reason. I think another reason is that many hunters so badly want to believe that they can purchase something that will render them invisible to a whitetail or elk’s nose.
Many of you have probably read articles by authors that claim their scent elimination clothing was pinnacle in helping them tag the biggest buck, with out it, the hunt would not have been successful. I truly believe the fact that these hunters who wore these garments while achieving success, can be chalked up to being merely a coincidence. Many of the authors who wrote these type articles failed to mention they were wearing their lucky hat and that their lucky rabbits foot was in their pocket at the time too! :alscalls:
All sarcasm aside, I think many successful hunters who wear these special garments fail to recognize that they have been consciously paying closer attention to personal hygiene techniques before every hunt.
You must understand that none of the success story articles that push these special garments are based on science studies. They are opinions.... misinformed ones at that.
It is said that a deer can smell nearly 1,000 times better than humans. You cannot legitimately observe the effectiveness of these garments or read a deer's mind. No one, to the best of my knowledge, has contracted a non-biased independent laboratory or university to demonstrate the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of this clothing.
It is my belief that the manufacturers of these specialty garments know what the results of such a study would show..... therefore it would not behoove them to undertake such an exercise. So they just claim the garments are field tested by the product-pushing pros.
This is just my opinion,.... but it’s one based on sound science, education and a realistic view of product marketing techniques....
My apologies for the long windedness.
Fosteology, I asked what you based your conclusions on because, unlike you, the majority of internet hunters simply parrot what they have read, often by someone they admire such as B.S. who has posted on PMS that if anyone were to show him a cover scent that worked he would drink it. Statements such as those are made in ignorance of the olfactory system of the coyote.
The coyote's system is comprised of two components... detection and analysis. Everything within the coyote's rostrum, from the rhinarium at the anterior to the subethmoidal shelf at the posterior and everything in between is designed to capture and detect scent molecules in parts per trillion. Detection is a done deal, there is no escaping it. So when someone says that you can not fool a coyote's nose I have to agree.
But detection is only the first half of the system's components.
When enough molecules have been deposited in the epithelial mucosa for complex analysis the neurons fire off an electrical impulse to the olfactory lobe and then on to the frontal cortex. It is estimated that a full third of the coyotes brain is dedicated to scent analysis.
Scent analysis is also comprised of two components.... interpretation and perception.
These we can dink with. These we can influence and exploit.
If you bring your science education to bear it will quickly become clear.
You have been calling all day, you are tired and sweaty, and on the last stand a coyote pops up out of a wash or hollow 30 yards straight downwind and gets a snoot full of you. Detection is immediate, including location and distance.. interpretation is.. a rank human is very, very close.. perception is one of fear and dread of an immediate and deadly situation. Your close strong odor was like a slap in the face or a loud scream in it's ears. The coyote's reaction is often as though it had been poked with a cattle prod.
You can use scent control to alter the coyotes perception.
Reduce your odor, body and clothes with Scent Away, Forget the Wind or borax, baking soda and hydrogen peroxide, or any such.
Use mist or a trapping lure or an attractant downwind.
When the coyote pops up 30 yards downwind detection is immediate but it is like a tap on the shoulder or a whisper in the ear rather than a slap or a scream and often the coyote's interpretation of the "small" or "quiet" human odor will alter it's perception of danger from panic to caution and combined with mist or lure will often trigger it's curiosity to keep it in close proximity for extended periods.
Plenty of time for a camera or a shot at your leisure.
I am amazed that the product manufacturers have never addressed this fact. Don't they research their products and their effects on their target species? Don't they understand the physiology and especially the analysis component of the olfactory system?
It seems their advertising would be more effective if they did.
Fosteology and CCP, thank you for bringing me up to speed on the true facts of carbon clothing.
I was prepared to shell out some bucks to reduce my scent signature.
I'll use some of the savings to buy you guys a beer someday.
Quote from: Rich Higgins on February 17, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
I am amazed that the product manufacturers have never addressed this fact. Don't they research their products and their effects on their target species? Don't they understand the physiology and especially the analysis component of the olfactory system?
It seems their advertising would be more effective if they did.
Rich,
It would seem that the product manufacturers have indeed studied their target species..... US!
Unfortunately, the vast majority of products being produced and marketed are geared more towards separating the cash or credit card from our wallets.
Rich I know where your coming from and agree that less scent makes a less weary coyote. Most of us do to some degree try to diminish our scent in some way. I personally the day I go hunting have coffee and a few cigarettes early in the AM before putting on my hunting gear. I don’t smoke again until I quit hunting for the day.
In my early days of coyote hunting I just hunted, and then I went through a phase of stealth mode and carried my clothing in a bag and put them on right before walking into a stand. Then I learned how to setup better and have a pretty good idea of where the coyotes were coming from. I feel teaching someone more about locating and setup will and does make a coyote hunter more successful than teaching him scent control.
If someone is constantly telling me how Scent Loc or any product like that is constantly saving there butt I have to conclude they don’t know how to hunt. If a TV personality is constantly on every episode is telling me it was the Scent Loc that helped get the animal close for the kill. Then Bubba down the street is constantly killing deer while smoking and sipping on a glass of tea, I have to conclude Bubba is a hell of a lot better hunter than mister TV personality.
If a coyote comes from a different location than I thought I don’t think Dayum I should have had some Scent Loc on but rather Dayum I need to spend a little more time with boots on the ground.
Do you think when a TV personality wearing Scent Loc does get winded/busted he will show it and say the Scent Loc failed him? I think not! They will lie to you to help there Sponsors sales all for as little as 2 or 3 grand and some just for a free product and a little perceived fame.
Rich you and I are alike in we aint going to lie to the public just to get a sponsor or a free product. A successful product to me comes from 20 or so successful hunts and I then look at the info gathered in each hunt and try to determine what percentage of success can be attributed to the product.
Quote from: CCP on February 18, 2011, 06:23:36 AM
Rich you and I are alike in we aint going to lie to the public just to get a sponsor or a free product.
And for that I/we respect you gentlemen! :bowingsmilie:
QuoteIn a hunting scenario we do not have to eliminate our scent to avoid detection and alarming animals downwind from us. We simply have to alter their perception of their interpretation process during the analysis portion of the olfactory process.
Talking like that at our hunting camp will get a pick up backed up against the door of the outhouse when you're in it.
And probably not moved for at least a week.
A lot of interesting comments in this tread, I have never been into Scent Loc or the Rubber boot thing. have you ever listen to someone walk in the rubber boots? I think it all boils down to good common sense, personal hygiene , and the Setup, What ever you are Hunting Coyotes or Deer. cc
In 1992 Mojave Sportsmen held the first Antelope Eaters Coyote Contest in Seligman Az. The contest mission is coyote suppression prior to antelope fawning.
52 teams from three states turned in 156 coyotes that first year..
Last year 293 hunters turned in 54 coyotes and they were taken outside GMU 10 which the contest is supposed to benefit because the coyotes in Unit 10 no longer respond to distress calls..
PVCI has 7 monthly contest hunts Sept-March. In the past as many as 60 teams participated with winners usually turning in several coyotes with an occasional bobcat and fox. Tyler and I hunted the Dec. contest.
16 teams signed up and only 2 teams turned in anything. 2nd place team had one fox. Tyler and I took 1st with 4 coyotes. Everyone else blanked.
Barry Fifer Memorial Contest was held last week. 4 coyotes and 2 bobcats won first money
White Mountain Contest was held two weeks ago. 32 teams turned in a total of 19 coyotes and 1 bobcat.
The Save a Fawn Hunt is an annual coyote calling hunt sponsored by AZG&F and APC.
The last 2 years not a single coyote has been turned in.
Coyotes have responded to intense pressure by going nocturnal and becoming very reluctant to expose themselves for any reason during daylight hours. Predator calling has literally exploded in popularity in the US and especially in Az.
We seldom bother with what are considered "traditional " stands. We move into the coyote's comfort zones , their bedrooms, where visibility is sometimes just a few feet. The coyotes can and will approach from any direction . We only know that they will wind up downwind so we try to leave that as open as possible but the wind is often variable because of swirls in close cover.
Scent control and misting are essential.
The callers that set up a stand in the traditional manner with good visibility, downwind open, knowing what direction the coyotes should approach from usually don't bother going back to check-in because they have nothing to turn in.
Gentlemen, this is the future of our sport. Predator calling is the fastest growing of the shooting/hunting sports.
Predator Xtreme surpassed Field and Stream and Outdoor Life as the largest circulation outdoor glossy a couple of years ago.
Firearm and ammo manufacturers have dedicated products for predator hunters. New predator calling TV shows are popping up constantly.
Cabella's front office drew up the curriculum for the calling seminars for their fall hunting extravaganza for the first time this year.
The International Sportsman's Exposition recognized and included predator calling for the first time last year.
There are products to be sold and dollars to be made. Aggressive advertising and product promotion in the FoxPro style is upon us and the resultant onslaught of exuberant but inexperienced neophytes making every mistake possible while exerting constant pressure on every coyote within an hours drive will be the catalysts that launch Darwinism into fast forward.
Varied, Adaptable and Complex are the three adjectives most often used by biologists to describe the nature of the coyote and we are going to witness the coyotes adapting to this pressure just as they did beginning in Missouri in 1825 and in every area that has applied concentrated and sustained pressure since..
Predator callers had better become as adaptable as their quarry and learn to use mist, lure/attractants and scent control/suppression with advanced tactics and techniques.
These are remarkably valuable, informative posts, both the science and the declining success stats in the heavily hunted areas. I have two reactions:
1. I learned some new info, some of which explains coyote behaviours I've seen,.
2. I am REALLY glad I did most of my coyote hunting from 1965 to 1985. Inside the LA city limits to the Mojave to the Interior of BC and a bunch of other places, coyotes were abundant, incredibly gullible and easy to call, and for some of those years, their hides brought serious money. I never met another caller in the field nor saw sign of any. Guess I lived at a good time for calling coyotes. Started in 1963.
Rubber boots are a must have when hunting big white tail.
Sent control clothing also are a must have when I am hunting big deer.
I don't wear the expensive stuff but I wear what I can afford.
I keep my close in a sent control bag from dryer to field.when hunting deer.
Coyotes and other predators I am calling to me, so reality is I am picking there last resting place
so I am not big on boots or clothing more so on the wind.
why do I say I still use them? because I am a big believer in CONFIDENCE and rubber boots and sent control gear on stand and to the stand makes me feel that much more confident on tricking big bucks.and on some big bucks confidence is all you have
3 or 4 years ago I was banned from PMS in part because I challenged 8 FoxPro field staff to a contest in response to a post that Steve Dillon made.
The contest was to determine if I could photograph more coyotes with their noses stuck in a Minaska speaker or decoy than the 8 staffers could with their FoxPros.
I knew from posts that BS and GG and the Pursuit boys had made that they did not believe in scent control or misting because
"You cannot fool a coyotes nose" so there is no way they could consistently photo coyotes with the caller together in the same frame.
I was absolutely confident that I could do this at will because I did practice scent control and attraction.... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/Richinaz/Canonpics038.jpg)
and this..(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/Richinaz/Minaska2001.jpg)
and this..(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/Richinaz/Minaska2005.jpg)
The producers of the predator TV shows are going to feel the effects of the pressure that they are putting to the coyotes in confined areas week after week. Predator Pursuit and Mojo Outdoors (Byron South) have exclusive calling rights on large Texas ranches.
The coyotes will go into siege mode quickly with that kind of pressure. They are going to have to diversify and tape other animals in other areas to compensate for the lack of animals on film or tape.
Les Johnson said that Mojo had sent emails to him and several other TV show producers suggesting that they stop showing repeated kills on the shows because new callers would believe that coyotes coming into every stand was the norm and it just wasn't fair to the newbies. He suggested that they show blank stands in proportion to realistic success.
A listener suggested that to him it sounds like Mojo is trying to level the playing field between Les and his number of successful stands and Byron and his level of success.
Les will continue to put impressive numbers in front of the camera. It will be interesting to see what Byron does.
Les Johnson will kill more coyotes by accident than Byron South will on purpose. The only thing BS is good at is bs. His "Callin' in the Thick Stuff" video is a perfect example. I won't go as far to say that he hunts pen raised coyotes but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.
Quote from: Rich Higgins on February 19, 2011, 04:23:57 PM
3 or 4 years ago I was banned from PMS in part because I challenged 8 FoxPro field staff to a contest in response to a post that Steve Dillon made.
The contest was to determine if I could photograph more coyotes with their noses stuck in a Minaska speaker or decoy than the 8 staffers could with their FoxPros.
That was IMO the funniest and all time greatest internet exchange, on any forum. You were putting up fabulous photos of coyotes almost touching Minaska e-callers, and the FoxPro/PMS syndicate were frantic to stop you. As Dillon chipped at you he painted himself into a corner by inviting a challenge, and then backing down when you took him up on it and gave him 8 to 1 odds! In order to rescue him the PMS lackeys banned you and deleted Dillon's embarrassing threads. He had made himself and FP look soooo bad that the sycophant PMSers had to rescue him from his own words. It was hilarious except that I feel bad that they banned you.
For any that missed it, when Dillon backed away from the challenge the
mods posted inflammatory stuff, and then used that as an excuse to shut down the thread. They deleted Dillon's posts that made him look bad and anything that made Rich look good, and then put it back up again. Then they banned Rich of course, even though his posts were courteous throughout.
:holdon: This thread hurts my eye's and I can't read anymore. I have some Scent Blocker stuff and a Dream season suit but I didn't buy it for the scent elimination BS, I bought it for the design and extremely quiet ,soft material. I have killed far more critters using little to no scent control products, IMO the more you use, the less you see.
This is the only true way to eliminate odors IMO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YFC0O393DQ
Securepro,
what was the price tag on the "Scent Blocker stuff"?
Mr. Higgins
Have you given any thought to the long term effects on coyote populations by hunters using scent suppression, lures and attractants and being able to hunt in "their bedrooms" ?
Thats sumthin I have been wondering for a while now al. If there is a new fad and everyone starts doing it what happens in lets say 15years after everyone has been hammering one thing. will that one thing still produce or will the animals evolve and stop responding to it?
Mr. THO,
I'm sorry.
I do not understand your question.
The inference is that you may believe or you think that I may believe that calling coyotes "in their bedroom" using scent products and scent control may be so effective that it would significantly reduce coyote populations over a period of time. Is that correct?
I was wondering that if over time of using a certain method will it become less effective if you use it in the same general for years? I have only been calling for a short time and haven't been using the same methods I once did when I first started so lacked the knowledge to know yet. and was wondering if one of the more experienced hunters might have known the answer.
I'm not ignoring you Rich, I am just swamped in the shop today. I will get back to you this evening.
Al
Hey Ben, coyotes do learn to avoid sights, scents and sounds that they have had unpleasant experiences with. They can learn in several different ways.. from direct experience , from what the biologists call observational learning, or they can be taught by a family or group member. An older coyote will intercept a younger coyote that is about to do something dangerous and chase him from the immediate vicinity while biting it's fanny. That behavior is called "nip and herd" and young coyotes learn to avoid a number of things, such as rattlesnakes, traps, predator calls, without having to actually experience snake bite , being trapped or being shot.
The more pressure that is brought to the coyote, the more fear and alarm associated with one of the 3 S's, the faster they learn.
Scott Huber believes that because so many coyotes approach electronic calls and survive the encounter and learn from the experience they can and eventually will associate the electronic "buzz" or white noise with a human ambush and e callers will become less effective than handcalls.
Rate of incidence or amount of pressure is key. Dog breeders know that it takes 3 generations to instill a genetic behavior or trait.
The Spokane Indians practiced animal husbandry and they told the explorer Frasier that it took 3 generations to domesticate their coyotes they used for pack animals, food and hair.
Three years of sustained heavy pressure on a given population will likely "set" a behavior such as avoiding any kind of distress calls.
That is precisely what has happened in several management units in Arizona.
Rich, I think I paid somewhere between $200 and $250 for my Dream Season suit. Well worth the money IMO, very comfortable and useful with my hunting style.
Thanks for the reply rich. do you think this would also be the same for fox as well to an extent?
I'm sorry, Ben.
I don't much of anything about fox.
Quote from: Rich Higgins on February 21, 2011, 04:34:53 PM
Three years of sustained heavy pressure on a given population will likely "set" a behavior such as avoiding any kind of distress calls.
That is precisely what has happened in several management units in Arizona.
Does that mean those coyotes only hunt what they can see and/or smell?
I say if it gives ya more confidence...... have at it.....
If you get to go..... go with what ya got....... Sometimes ya win..... sometimes ya loose..... but ya went...
Rich,
If I understand you correctly, coyotes have adapted to accept a certain level of human scent as being non threatening.
Surely, coyotes, at least on the east coast encounter human scent every week of the year, and in many seasons, almost every day. They live with it and it does not send them into a negative response mode.
If that is correct, then your methods of getting into their bedrooms with scent suppression clothing, lures and attractants, will over time, condition them to accept less human scent than they do currently before deciding that the human is close enough to present a real danger.
The long term consequences of this could impact us all greatly as follows.
Coyotes will be forced to move deeper into more remote areas to remain feeling secure. By moving into these remote areas, and not venturing out of them because of the ever present human scent they have been conditioned to believe is hazardous to their well being, they will stress their safe habitat to the point food sources decline, disease takes route, and coyote populations decline to cope with the reduced food supply.
Once this happens, fish and game departments will be put in a precarious position. Unlike deer or elk, for which they can set harvest to include only antlered animals, or turkey where only bearded birds are allowed (a small percentage of hen turkeys do have beards) the only option for fish and game departments will be to introduce seasons to protect the coyote, and possibly bag limits.
While seasons wont make many happy, they can be lived with, but bag limits could have a disastrous effect on your club hunts and contest hunts.
You posted that the coyote will adapt in as little as 3 generations, and wrote earlier that they had adapted in Arizona (in less than 18 years) to pressured calling in WMU 10.
It seems entirely possible that by suggesting
"Predator callers had better become as adaptable as their quarry and learn to use mist, lure/attractants and scent control/suppression with advanced tactics and techniques.
that we could bring about long term negative effects on coyote hunting withing our own lifetimes.
QuoteDoes that mean those coyotes only hunt what they can see and/or smell?
Semp,
Ron Day is the AZG&F predator biologist. Ron is also an avid predator caller and a member of Arizona Predator Callers.
Ron always carries a CritterCall PeeWee in his shirt pocket and uses it at any opportunity.
Ron spends a lot of time in GMU10 especially as antelope fawning nears.
Ron drives and hikes the entire unit glassing for antelope and coyotes.
When he spots coyotes mousing or moving about the unit he first blows a short series on the PeeWee. Ron says that the coyotes immediately run in the opposite direction. That is a rather extreme response and probably has something to do with exposure. Coyotes that have habituated to distress calls usually just ignore them.
I don't know if they ignore only artificially produced distress cries and respond to real cries.
Wouldn't surprise me.
Tim Lewis' video "Coyote Rage" has a clip in which he sets up a stand overlooking a meadow that has three coyotes mousing in it.
The foxpro calls all three in. He shoots the first coyote and the other two make the mad dash to the right, under a fence and into cover.
The next day, on the way home, they set up the same place. Two coyotes are mousing in the meadow. When the FoxPro starts the furthest coyote heads for it at a lope. The nearest coyote intercepts it and nip and herds it to their right, under the fence and into cover. Interesting video.
It seems that the coyotes in both scenarios go about their normal business until they hear a predator call.
Quotef I understand you correctly, coyotes have adapted to accept a certain level of human scent as being non threatening.
Surely, coyotes, at least on the east coast encounter human scent every week of the year, and in many seasons, almost every day. They live with it and it does not send them into a negative response mode.
Both of those statements are correct within a very narrow window.
Proximity and urgency determine the coyotes perception of threat.
The nose identifies location and distance.
Coyotes go about their normal routines surrounded by human scent that originates at a safe distance, but when the nose detects a human in close proximity then the urgency changes and they act and react differently just as they react differently to a gunshot at a quarter mile away than to a gunshot a few feet away.
Concerning the rest of your post, Al, at least you didn't say that if I call coyotes to a camera in city limits without shooting them then eventually the coyotes will begin eating children.
PM 2 or 3 years ago. :laf:
From PhD to Politician all in one thread.
Christ, just answer the question :alscalls: :alscalls: :alscalls:
Don't make Oriely you - this is a no spin zone bucko
As for coyotes eating children, I don't really have a problem with that. They can start with my 16 year old. I'll even tie a pork chop around his neck if you think it will help.
Quote from: Rich Higgins on February 22, 2011, 06:57:13 PM
Concerning the rest of your post, Al, at least you didn't say that if I call coyotes to a camera in city limits without shooting them then eventually the coyotes will begin eating children.
PM 2 or 3 years ago. :laf:
I think I remember that. Wasn't that the "Urban Coyotes" thread in '08? About the coyote in the playground. That thread got a lot of comments. :eyebrownod:
Quote from: THO Game Calls on February 22, 2011, 07:24:11 PM
From PhD to Politician all in one thread.
Christ, just answer the question :alscalls: :alscalls: :alscalls:
THO, what was the question you posted? Maybe I missed it but I didn't see one question mark in the entire lengthy string of suppositions.
There are at least six "if - then" suppositions, each built on the previous speculation. I.e if we call coyotes in their cover, then they will move deeper etc. If they move deeper then their food supply will decline, they will get disease etc. If they deplete food supply and get disease, then coyote population will decline. If coyote populations decline, then the game dept. will be in a precarious position. If Game dept. is in precarious... etc. etc.
There's something going on with this post, but it isn't a question. :shrug: :wo: :innocentwhistle:
Quote from: Semp on February 22, 2011, 10:18:06 PM
Quote from: Rich Higgins on February 22, 2011, 06:57:13 PM
Concerning the rest of your post, Al, at least you didn't say that if I call coyotes to a camera in city limits without shooting them then eventually the coyotes will begin eating children.
PM 2 or 3 years ago. :laf:
I think I remember that. Wasn't that the "Urban Coyotes" thread in '08? About the coyote in the playground. That thread got a lot of comments. :eyebrownod:
Yes, that was part of the frantic effort to discredit the excellent photos of coyotes that Rich called to a Minaska and posted on PMS. The whole point was to smear Higgins and the photos by saying that he was endangering children by taking pictures of called coyotes. It was hilarious hogwash, pure propaganda masquerading as responsible concern. The "save the children" posters contradicted themselves totally and looked like idiots to anyone familiar with coyotes and calling.
I could be mistaken, but, it seems to me the picture that caused the uproar was taken in a park. That was why they were jumping on him about kids being eaten.
Quote from: 5 SHOTS on February 23, 2011, 10:28:56 PM
I could be mistaken, but, it seems to me the picture that caused the uproar was taken in a park. That was why they were jumping on him about kids being eaten.
You are correct that it was the
excuse they used to jump on him. It is baloney, and those who started the accusations know it is baloney. Their intent was to put doubt about it in the minds of casual readers who did not think it through carefully, and they succeeded.
I read their stuff at the time and there was no sustainable logic that taking a picture of a coyote in a park equates with causing coyotes to eat children. There may be a surface fallacy of kids and coyotes in the same general area but as soon as we examine the elements of calling a coyote, the facts go strongly in favor that calling coyotes and not killing them makes them even more wary of humans.
We can't have it both ways: that calling coyotes conditions them to be wary of humans, and that calling coyotes makes them seek out humans to eat. If calling coyotes and not shooting them conditions them to come to humans, then contest callers would call the same spot every day till they had lots of coyotes showing up, and then shoot them on contest day. Taking a kid along on the stand, or having a kid as a decoy doesn't change the outcome.
We might condition coyotes to eat children if we put food in sandboxes, etc. but food nor any other kind of reward is not involved in this calling. When a coyote only gets fooled and scared by a predator calling human, he does not consider not getting shot by that human a positive experience he wants to enjoy again.
We can rehash the topic if anyone wants.
You are correct, there was no question in my last post. The question was in a previous post, which, instead of answering, was deflected and redirected to something that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. In addition, Mr. Higgins attempts to associate me with the group of individuals who attacked him on PM for calling coyotes in a park, which of course I had nothing to do with, but it has however served his agenda in getting the subject changed.
But hey, it's cool. I'm just a coyote hunter, not a predator professional :alscalls: :alscalls: :alscalls: :alscalls:
After re-reading all 57 replies to this thread, it appears to me Higgins answered your question posted in your reply #37. Was there another one?
Actually I posted the photo after several heated posts that stated if I continued to call coyotes to a camera within city limits they would lose their fear of man and begin attacking children .
Scott Francom and I drove out to the desert, called in a coyote that Scott shot then drove to a small rural town and posed with the coyote outside of the playground of an elementary school. You can see that I did not actually enter the playground. The fence borders pristine desert and is outside city limits.
I thought it was funny. Some didn't.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/Richinaz/572new.jpg)
THO, sorry if you got bent. However, like Okanagan, I didn't see a single question to evade or deflect.
I just reread the post and it is comprised entirely of conclusions, suppositions, drawn from my posts.
If you rephrase your statements as questions I will happily deflect and evede them as well. :alscalls: :alscalls: :alscalls: :alscalls: :alscalls: (one upped you with five of the little fuckers)
I do remember that pic but was a bit confused. I was thinking of a video of a coyote and a dog running and playing in a park. Either way, I think the whole deal was ridiculous. I can't imagine coyotes eating children just because someone called them while inside city limits.
Some people don't have a sense of humor or a lick of common sense.