cow carcasses as bait??

[Jimmie in Ky]

While I do things similar to Allscalls by locating them as well, you have read the story, we haven't. The story is the sign they have left you along the roads and fencerows.This story tells you how often they travel the area and give you an aproximate time if you can age the sign you see.

Sit down and draw a crude map of the place indicating which way the sign goes and where. This will teach you how to read the stories they tell no matter where you hunt.

While you are doing this a number of questions will come to mind such as the how often and where they go. Now is the time to think about the where. What does the lay of the ground tell you ? How do the hills and hollows come together? What cover is on that ground ? What are the predominant winds ? Do this and you will see the patterns Possum Al has been talking about. Then you can make better guesses as to where and how you should set up.

Went back to your first post and looked at the tracks in the pics. First two pics are two to three days old. The third pic is somewhere around six to eight hours old give or take one or two from the time you were there. I don't know what your soil type is or what th drying conditions are there, but I woud say that is close . Jimmie

[Frogman]

Jimmie, possumal and others,
         Thanks so much for your input and suggestions. 
         The ground on this farm is not good for finding tracks and scat.  The haul roads in the woods are grown up and covered with grass and leaves.  Very little soft soil to hold tracks.  The only place we found tracks was in the recently dozed haul road that goes up the ridge to a new well site.  Wv-yoter's photo shows this road.  You can still see the dozer tracks in it.  Once you get off this long ridge and down in the woods there are more older haul roads with very little bare soil to hold tracks. 
         Since we only spent about 3 hours scouting the area maybe we should go back and scout some more before trying to hunt this farm?  We have had lots of rain.  We get maybe one nice day surrounded by two or three days of overcast rainy drizzley days.  When Jason and I were there scouting it was on one of those nice days.  It rained the day before and the day after we were there.  We are scheduled for three or maybe even four days coming up with no rain!  I'm hoping to get back out there one of those days for another scout or hunt.

Jim

[Jimmie in Ky]

Now that I know more about weather conditions there, I have a better idea of soil type. It is more of a sandy clay type soil. More sand means quicker drying time. First two pics are right after the rain and the third pic is within six hours of the time you were there.

As tracks age they show signs of it. In the first ytwo pics you can see the ground around them is cracking. Means it has been quite some time since they passed. Yet the tracks are still fairly clear, not a lot of soil crumbled into them and not much weather wear on th ridges in the track.

Third pic shows that they barely sank into the ground. Ground has dried considerably in that short time yet still soft enough to take and hold a clear track. No wear or crumbling to speak of in them.

To age the sign you see , remember weather conditions, they play a role. Learn how to read soil types, this helps to age sign by drying conditions. As tracks age things happen to them. Soil dries and crumbles. Wind wears the edges as does dew and rain. With experience and attention you can get the guess work down to within an hour or two of when they were made. Jimmie

[Frogman]

Jimmie,
       Thanks for the info on ageing tracks.  You guys are great!

        Here is some more info, I am going to try to post an aerial photo of the Southern part of this farm.  A lot of the area to the left of center is not on this property.  Everything to the right of center is.  There is a property line just North of the old trailer at the top of the photo.  I hope this comes out OK and that it will help you guys see what we are dealing with.  Remember everything looks flat in these photos.  Take my word for it, it is far from being flat.  The aerial photo:



      We have not been back to this farm to hunt it yet.  Wind was wrong today 4/8/08.  It was from the SE.  We have to park at the farm house and walk back past the outbuildings and up the brown road to access the area.  We are supposed to get lots of rain the next few days here so it may be a while before we can get back out there. 

       I don't want to screw this up.  If we are careful and set up correctly I feel we have a real good chance to score here.  I know it is hard for you guys to help because you have not seen the farm and the lay of the land.  I hope this aerial photo helps!  Thanks again for any further suggestions from the F&F brain trust!

Jim

[Frogman]

Ohhh, that didn't come out very well.    

Jim

[Jimmie in Ky]

Let me guess, Tracks turn off north east from where you found them ?

Check out the pine thicket due east of where you found the scat. I think I can see a saddle in the ridgeline at the northeast corner of the thicket. Jimmie

[possumal]

MuddyFrogman:  I agree with Jimmie.  Those hollows, ridges, and saddled just above the place you found the scat, and off to the right of the old trailer, appear to be one of those "Spaghetti Junction" deals, lots of ways for them to come.  If the prevailing wind is like you have it marked, that ought to tell you how to go about slipping into the area where you really want to set up.  I'd figure out a way to approach the setup so that the wind would not be carrying my sound or smell to the most likely response direction.  You are not going to screw up anything if you think it out a little.  Think like a coyote, which should be easy for a frog, since they get eaten by coyotes!    Seriously, I really like the way there is a sharp bend in the open area adjacent to those areas too. That is a likely route for them to take if they come in from the edge of the open field beyond the old trailer.  If it is too muddy to drive where you want to, it is a sure bet nobody else will drive up in there either.  Get your hiking boots or atv to work and get in there while you can be sneaky.

[Jimmie in Ky]

And if you back off that view a bit you can see the travel loop and all it's possibilities. It looks to me like it goes between the pine thicket to the east and as far as the pine thicket under your north direction marker. Once you figure out the timing of their movement you can figure out which one they spend their days at. That is where the aging of the tracks comes in. It tells you which way they were going when and how often.

Lets say you are in there at noon. Rains stopped around nine that morning. You find a sharp clear track with no signs of drying or soil fallen into to it.  It shows no slight dulling of the ridges . If there is any slight dulling of the ridges in the track , they came by as the rains were slowing down, just before it stopped. You know you are fairly close to bedding areas.

Now same scenario, tracks look fairly sharp but are washed badly. Ridges are dull and no marks of the toe nails. These were made during the night while it was raining. Now you know you are not near bedding areas but the line of tracks gives you the direction to look in.

Once you learn to see a travle route and read the story they leave your percentages go way up. Good luck . Jimmie

[Frogman]

OK guys,
    wv-yoter and I went back out to this farm on Monday afternoon 4/21/08 and hunted all afternoon til dark.  The landowner actually called me about 11:00 AM and told me her son had seen a large coyote Monday morning at 10:00 AM near the pond to the W of the farm house.  He ran for the gun but the coyote was gone by the time he got back out.  She also told me that he had been brush hoggin in the upper meadow and found fresh tracks in the road on his way back out on Sunday afternoon.  The weather was predicting E winds for Monday.  Unfortunatly when we got there the winds were from the ESE which wasn't so good for us.  Since it was an hour drive from home we decided to hunt anyway.  wv had the 12 gauge and I took the AR.

This aerial photo shows the property and main points.  We started our stands at about 3:30 PM and did five stands up til dark.  On the map you can see our stands in red.  W stands for wv-yoter, F stands for Frogman, FP stands for Foxpro.  The lines indicate the direction we were facing.



Ohh this aerial photo did not come out to well.  The red did not show up well??

We were hoping to hunt the meadow that extends NE from the farm house, but the wind was just not good for doing a stand here.  Our 1st stand was just up the road a ways near the dead pile.  wv set up facing back down the road toward the S and I went quite a ways up the road and set up near the new well.  W1 and F1 on the map.  We put the Foxpro between us and used only distress sounds.  I did some distress with the mouth call too.  We had crows, and hawks and buzzards come in.  No other response.



I was set up just to the L in this photo back in the briers you can see there.  The left is facing E.  I  could see on up the meadow and down in the woods to the E a little ways.  It was really thick ther though.

Here is the new well site:



I set up just to the L in this shot.  This photo is facing E.



wv-yoter was set up up the road a little ways and to the left (W) in the photo looking back down the road toward the camera.  The dead pile is about 50 yards off the right (E) in this photo.  Up the road is (N) toward the Foxpro and wher I was sitting over the top of the hill.

Here are some more tracks we found in this area in the road.  The last rain was a couple of days prior to our hunt.





Our 2nd stand was on out the ridge.  We limited our stands to the E side of the ridge due to the ESE wind.  On our 2nd stand we did get a turkey to come in but no coyotes.  We started with distress sounds then did some howls.  No response.

Our 3rd stand was on out the ridge just to the R (E) of the old trailer.  wv-yoter walked a haul road that went out a finger to the E and I set up in the head of a small holler.   I could look up behind me to my L and see the old trailer.  We started this stand with some howls and also did some distress, both on the FP and with mouth calls.  No response.  Here is a photo of what I could see:



We were getting some swirling winds by this time and decided to do a stand on the W side of the road near where we had done our first stand.  This was stand 4.  I had one deer come in and Jason saw several down below him.  Did some distress and some howls and some fawn distress.  No response.  Here is a photo of this area:



Just before dark we decided to try a stand near the cow carcass.  It is still there but has been fed on quite heavily since were here a couple of weeks ago. 





We found these tracks near the carcass:





And this scratching, don't know what did this.  There was no odor of coyote piss here???



Also found this scat near the carcass:



We set up near here just before dark.  Did some distress, and some howls.  No response. 

wv-yoter and I were both really dissapointed with this hunt.  Our expectations were high.  We didn't even hear a coyote.  The farmer had been brush hogging and spreading lime on the fields for the past couple of days, maybe that had them spooked.  The wind was not good, but it should not have affected coyotes to the E of the road which is where we did most of our stands.  We hope to get back out there and maybe do some night stands.  With turkey season starting on April 28 we will be limited in what we can do for a while.  Once again any suggestions are appreciated. 

[possumal]

Frogman:  Again, it is hard to assess your situation from pictures and the farmer said this and that.  For instance, when they told you they saw a coyote the previous day at 10:00 a.m. near a pond, etc., that just tells you there is at least one there, and he was there at that particular time, but it sure doesn't tell you he'll be there again the next day or even the next.  When you conisider the size of their hunting territory, it can be like playing the old guessing game about which shell the ball is under.  The farmer's comments about the boy not being able to get his gun in time tells me they probably take a quick shot at them anytime they get a chance, but I'll venture a guess they aren't killing many, just educating them to the danger of humans being where they are.  Believe it or not, when you used howls on your first setup, any coyote within a half mile or more heard those howls.  They might not respond right then due to many factors, but they heard them and noted the fact that a couple of coyotes were howling over by hollow number ????.  As I told you in an earier post, I'd figure out several setup spots that I could get to real sneaky, and I'd want them as close to their bedding areas as I could get for afternoon stands.  Being nocturnal by nature and even more so when pressured, they are going to do most of their work starting just before dark to just an hour or two after daybreak and then bed their contented asses down for the day.  If the weather is extremely cold, and the weather real bad at night, they are apt to hunt more the next day and vice versa.  I'd rather make one or two well thought out, well located stands in an area like that than a dozen that just look good.  One big pair of coyotes can make a lot of sign in one night of roaming, and a small family group even more.  In my opinion, they are too smart to just keep hunting the same way every day, and it helps coyote hunters to remember that and copy their example.  At this time of year, when they can scratch out something to eat nearly anytime, anywhere, the game is harder to play.  It takes a lot more grub to keep them going in extreme weather conditions, and they are far more cooperative.  If you consider that farm could be the core area for a family group of 8 to 10 animals, it gets clearer why they are hard to get at there.  My suggestion would be to back off, think more, hunt it less. Good hunting at ya!

[Jimmie in Ky]

Boy you got yourself a learning tool with that last post. Your first track pic was made day of the rain. Your tracks in th trail pics show same day travel. I will leave it to you to study the diferences you see in them. Note the sharpness of the ridges and the amount of trash in the tracks. What I am seeing from your post is everyday travel.

Your cow carcass looks more to me like Opossums and buzzards feeding than coyote's. It's been eaten from the inside out. Coyotes would pull the hide off or eat it. They would be scattering it about by now.  Every creature has it's habits.

You have also learned where they are not in the afternoon. They are telling you the story. Now to figure out what htey are telling you.You don't say whether those tracks all go in one general direction or both ways along that trail. This info can mean a lot. One general direction means they are going somewhere else, Where? Which one of those hollows are they dropping into when they leave that trail? The tracks in th cow path just tell me it's a natural travle lane to somewhere. Where did they leave th cow path?

Farmers sighting only tells you they were there late in the morning. It also means they are on the way to the bedding area. It does not mean they are staying on the property. A coyote can cover a mile in just minutes at that trot they use.

The scratching is a scent post. Ever watch a dog dribble here and there as he makes his rounds? Same thing. Not likely to be enough urine to even smell. And due to lack of a post for it , I would say female. They make them too.  A male would do it on a bush or weed stem and make a bit bigger mess  Jimmie

[alscalls]

You need to do some night time locating Jim, take note of where you hear them right after dark. then study your map.
They should not be real far from thier bedding area right at dark and that tells you where they will be comming from in the late afternoon and going too in the morning, as a general direction. Then make a plan. I hope this helps, if I did not have to work so much I would be doing this more myself.

[Frogman]

Jimmie,
      I think you may be right about the coyotes not eating on the carcass.  It looks like smaller animals are doing it.  But we did find some of those tracks near the carcass.  Thanks again to all of you for your expert input.  I am learning a lot here.  We will probably let this farm alone now for a while due to turkey season.  Wouldn't want to get shot!!  All suggestions and input are appreciated!!  

Jim

[Jimmie in Ky]

Draw that map just for the heck of it. While you are doing it you will be thinking about what you saw on the ground. If that farmer saw one of them at 10 am , then your not real far off from them. I keep going back through your post and only hear you say the majority of sign is along that road. It seems like your not seeing a lot of sign elsewhere there.  I keep looking at it and I keep coming back to that drainage going to the upper right corner of the pic.  It forks near the road and gives two places to leave the road or enter it. If you have tracks going into or out of that drainage, that is the direction to look into. A call won't carry a mile in that kind of country. Just a half mile shift in stands, one direction or the other, could mean the diference. Jimmie