What DOES it take to kill a coyote?

[THO Game Calls]

What's it take to kill a coyote?

I've been wondering, and thinking, maybe I am going about this all wrong.

I read a post here on FnF the other day that pretty much said if I didn't enter (and do well I suppose was the implication) a certain calling contest, that I was just a "KeyBoard Caller".

In the past, I have read that because some of us like to chat on the internet, we aren't really coyote hunters, but "Internet Hunters".

Then we have the post about the new Predator University, and now a guy has to go to SCHOOL to learn to kill coyotes?

So let me ask the experts, and see if they can take a look at some observations and maybe set me straight.

First off, I wasn't aware that if I didn't enter and place high in a calling contest that I couldn't call coyotes in the field.   I know two guys who each own a WT E callers, arguably one of the best callers on the market, yet between them, they have more callers than coyotes killed?  How can that be?  Acording to what I have read, they should be racking up numbers like crazy.

Most of the guys on these boards don't even know that the E caller craze got started with 78  RPm records – what kind of sound quality could that have been?  I suppose not many coyotes got killed back then.  Anyone  remember the old FoxPro with the 8 second sound loop playing over and over and over again.  How real could that have sounded? How could that have even worked?

Does being able to create the most life like sounds imaginable have ANYTHING to do with being able to call a coyote?  Wasn't it Murray Burnham who said you could call a coyote with a rusty pail and a nail?  So do I have to enter and win a coyote calling contest to lose the handle of "Key Board Caller" or can I just go to the woods with my hand calls and have fun making noise without being looked down on because I dont have that piece of paper that said I won this or that contest.  Did coyotes learn to read?  Do you think it matters to them if I win lose or draw or even show up at some contest?

Second, what's wrong with chatting about killing coyotes on the internet?   Hell, you ever been to a deer camp?  Not too much talk about anything other than hunting and women at camp.  What makes that so much different than this, which many of us see as an electronic hunting camp?

How come some of the folks who throw around that "Internet Hunter" comment seem to post a lot of kill pictures taken when they are hunting out west or with someone who IS recognized as a good caller, yet post after post after post will tell us how tough it is to hunt here in the east?

I may be new to Coyote hunting, only doing it for 7 or 8 years now, but does that mean someone should infer that I am a complete newbie to hunting in general?  Do I have to travel out west to kill lots of coyotes to be a coyote hunter?  And how much of a hunter is the guy who DOES travel all over and call in other peoples back yards where they guide them to spots, call for them, and let the shoot the animal?  Is that what it takes to be a coyote hunter today?

The last two guys I took hunting (mostly I hunt alone) both got shots at coyotes.  One got two chances and missed them both, and got busted because he was looking where we was told not to look and the coyote came where I said it would, the other got his first coyote on our second trip out and his first red fox on our third.  And all of these trips were in NH, and I think you might want to consider that the East.
Am I still an Internet Hunter?  Do I have to stop talking on the boards to prove I am not an "Internet Hunter"?

And finally, going to school to learn to hunt coyotes.

I don't think killing coyotes is all that hard. But am I wrong here?  Do I need to go to a school to learn how to sit still, watch the wind and make some god awful sound on a hand call, or, how to push a button on an E caller?

I don't know, maybe I HAVE been going about this all wrong. 

Nope, I don't kill 100 coyotes a year, or 100 fox or bobcats or anything else for that matter (OK Crows – I do kill a lot of crows but that doesn't count)

Because I like to chat about hunting, mostly because I don't get to hunt as much as I want, does that mean I am just an "internet hunter"?

Or because I only call a couple dozen or so in a season here in NH does that make me less of a coyote hunter than the guy who goes on guided hunts and kills a ton?  Or heads to a coyote rich environment for the "hunt of a lifetime" and then post the same pictures over and over on every boad out there for the next 5 years?

Am I just a "keyboard" caller because I don't feel the need to drive 500 miles to enter a calling contest?  Or does it mean that I really have no ability to call coyotes so whenever I give some advice or voice a thought on calling I am full of shit because I don't have a piece of paper that says I won this or that calling contest? 

I don't know, but from what I have read on this board, and some others, it looks like if I don't do these things, I might as well take up gardening.    No way I am ever going to shake the "Keyboard Caller" or "internet hunter" tags living here in the east without a coyote university diploma in one hand and my winning contest certificate in the other.   

On the bright side however, with out my hands full of those pieces of paper, it sure is easier to carry a rifle when I do get to go hunting, and I probably have just as much fun doing it as the guy with the "credentials".

Thanks for listening.

Al

[pitw]

If you enjoy the hunting quit worrying about what others think.  I never join in the contest part of killing coyotes as I just enjoy hunting.  Anyone who looks down on you because you have not one a contest is probably an insecure type of person in the first place.  Some people just seem to have to put others down to feel better about themselves[I don't understand why but that's the way I see it].  Go out have fun and don't worry about what faceless messages have to say about your way of doing things.  I've never and probably never will use an E caller as I just don't think it's any fun to not use my own abilities to call in an animal [with the help of the great people on this site that make some really good hand calls.  Yes you can call in a coyote with a nail and a pail as I have done that.

[Bills Custom Calls]

Al I did get a chuckle from your post

What I was told when I started hunting coyotes and this applies to anything that you hunt
You have to be hunting where the coyotes are,if they aren't there they won't hear you calling them and they won't come to you.

I would say if you are calling in a couple dozen coyotes a year in NH [the far East] you are doing very well 

If it takes any kind of diploma,or a certifacate  to hunt anything I been doing it wrong for 25 years

[Bopeye]

I guess I'm screwed then too, but I don't care. 

I do everything to the beat of my own drum.......glad most of you can't hear it because you'd probably act like me, which would be.....   WRONG. 

I'll probably never enter a contest and I dang sure won't pay $1000 for someone to teach me.  :roflmao:

I do like to have fun though with my coyote hunting brethren. My hunting partner has around 34 years coyote hunting experience with almost all of that within a 40 mile circle of where I'm setting. I've been hunting them for over a decade myself with almost all of it within a 40 mile circle of where I'm setting. It's all been a ride.    Enjoyed it.

I like my little internet hunting camp here. Some of the best coyote hunters I know come right here. I ain't going nowhere else. 

[Red Dog]

Amen!!! I go to have fun and get on the woods.Don't worry about the body count

[George Ackley]

Al I like to address you comments ,,,

first, no one was talking about you , you aren't from my state and cant compete even if you were looking to ...

yes there are guys that talk a good game,,
coyotes in my state are some of the hardest to call and kill, I have hunted them most places and can say this , And most important I kill them ,,,here and up north out west and down south ,,not just talk about do it!

I am not going into what the hissy fit was about ,,but  predator hunting is taken off , one of the fastest growing outdoor sport out there. and with the Internet it is easy for someone to tell you they are a great caller .
you talk about chatting about things,, well it not that chatting that get me its the preaching !!!!!!
when guys start questioning me with my 30 years of killing predator and truck loads of dead predator and them with kills you can count on one hand or never hunted PA or for that matter ever attempted to call eastern critters, but will sit back and tell you how to kill them or what your doing wrong with a tone that sound like they would have no trouble killing critters in my area bugs me....sorry

no lets get something strait, I don't kill many coyote or cat anymore because I like ((the hunt)) . the hunt is what counts to me,,, and I also enjoy the smiles of the new guys standing over there first dead critter weather is a predator or deer , turkey or hog...

so Al you have no clue what the situation going on hear is with me and these guys..
Now you can take that how ever you like pal,

Yes if your going to talk the talk I would hope you have some way of backing it up.....

since I have killed 2 big cats and help in killing more i can answer your caliber question
243 will kill any cat you may come across. shoot the right bullet out of any caliber 23 and above will work ..

One last thing pal, the one thing you can count on with me is the truth,,,weather you like it or not that's what you get from me....
and if the truth troubles yea that's your problem...

George

PS
since you are aiming this shot at me i will answer this also

((How come some of the folks who throw around that "Internet Hunter" comment seem to post a lot of kill pictures taken when they are hunting out west or with someone who IS recognized as a good caller, yet post after post after post will tell us how tough it is to hunt here in the east?))

recognized as the good caller,,,,, yea Al  for 300 a day you to can get a critter and a photo with me also Al

[alscalls]

I have killed a lot of animals in my life, some would call them trophies yet I have never gotten one mounted.........ever.
Why? Well I was raised in a hunting environment where it was a way of life and not a show.
I never was that big on taking photos of my kills until the Internet came about and then at that if I do not have a camera I do not care if anyone sees it or not. I hunt for me, my way.
As far as Al and everyone else on this forum goes.......they have taught me a lot in a short time and my hat is off to all of them, and if I ever get so big headed as to not learn from others even though I have hunted since I was 8 years old and I am 42 now.....I might as well quit breathing.
I would hope to never come off to someone as knowing all about anything and if I do it is an accident. I can only speak of my own experience in my own way and if someone does not like it ........so what.....Go away and do not try and understand just do things your way no skin off of my back. I never entered a hunting contest in my life till this year and it was the turkey contest for F N F and I won WOW that was fun but I called bigger birds in for others and did not show one photo of them because that is their prize not mine. And I am confident there are better turkey hunters than I on here and they are better cause they are willing to learn from people.
I have never met AL and I can assure you of this.......if he came to my home he would be welcome to come and sit and break bread. When the learning was done for a time I would have no problem taking him hunting and there would be only the prize of time spent.
Never let mold grow on your boots because they sit in the garage AL.......Killing a coyote is just a bonus....my two cents

[THO Game Calls]

George - I am SHOCKED !!

You thoght this post was about YOU??

Ya need to check your ego at the door "pal"

Just some general observations about what I've seen on the boards for a while lately - if they hit home, well, home is where the heart is they say. 

AL

[George Ackley]

Say what you will Albert ,I see who you were talking about kid,,,,,
      you must of bump your head,

See Albert that's what separates me from you,, if you have something to say , say it!!!! don't beat around the bush buddyboy

how you doing with the Kleenex,,, you should think about investing in it ,

Pleae Albert man up will yea

[KySongDog]

Hey guys.......

There's a phrase that keeps ringing in my head from years ago...... It don't mean nothin'

Semp

[Rich]

THO,

Many moons ago, I hunted with Murry Burnham for four days. Although he was normally being paid about 1000.00 for a three day hunt, he didn't even charge me one Nickle. Since I have always known Mr. Burnham as an ICON of predator calling, I certainly was grateful for the opportunity to hunt with the man. We didn't call a truck load of coyotes, but we managed to kill four or five of the buggers. Murry called in a very nice bobcat for me, and I whacked it with my .22-.250 at maybe 35 yards or so. The caller he was using was the then new Compucaller. Although Bill Martz would tell you that the compucaller was only a toy quality unit, the bobcat seemed to like it just fine. Now comes the main reason that I tell you this story.--Murry told me that he had NEVER entered a calling contest. Now here is a man who never even entered a calling contest, but I am betting that not one man will ever accuse him of not being a hunter.

[Rich]

Big George,

Whenever I see one of your posts, I pay attention to what you are saying. Why? Because you always speak from your heart, I know you to be a hard hunter, and you certainly have paid your dues in the hunting  world. You have my utmost respect sir.

[Carolina Coyote]

Well I have only been Predator Hunting about 4 years the first year using a Electronic caller with no success but the first time I used a hand call I called in a coyote and  one of my friends killed it, no doubt in my mine there was a lot of luck involved but the setup was perfect. At my age I do not think I can ever achieve the recognition as a world class Coyote hunter, Do I care ? HELL NO Do I enjoy Predator Hunting? HELL YES And that's all that matters to me. I have a tape by Rich Cronk that came with one of the calls I bought from him, in the tape He says if you can't make the call sound perfect " DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT" He said he has heard some Coyotes in the wild that sound just terrible. To me its not how good a caller you are or how many you kill its the getting in the outdoors and enjoying what you are doing and if you can't get out there and you can sit at your computer and talk about it thats fine also. I think in ever type Hunting you have some that will critique everyone else about what they are doing and proclaim to be the best that ever was and if you have any doubts just ask them, sometimes you don't even have to ask. The main thing is enjoy yourself and like Rich Cronk says " DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT"

[THO Game Calls]

And that George, was what this thread was all about.

Yes, your post (the one you deleted) and one you wrote to me a while back prompted it, as did some of the recent threads I have read on a few other boards lately, but it was not directed at you.  You just provided the catalyst for it.  Your attitude towards other hunters seems to be pretty common place in the "new" coyote hunting community where it's not about having fun, it's about being able to "back it up" as you say and if you can't, you're just not worthy.

I guess I am just missing the point of it all. 

But really, it doesn't have anything to do with you, unless of course you think it should?

Al

[TA17rem]

I don't do contests all it proves is you have the money and time to find good ground. And thats what it takes to win most contests. Some guys do it for the compatition or to hang out with other callers or they have something to prove or sell..
Depending on where one lives its pretty tough to  compete against others as far as total kills go for the year, i'm talking west Vs east or midwest. This is just me but i judge a caller buy how much he puts into calling and the numbers he takes in his home state, i think its more fair that way. I also judge a caller by what he knows about coyotes, cats or fox. I nread that some prefer to use just hand calls, thats fine with me. But when i judge someone i also take into acount what type of tools he uses  or tatics used to get the job done... Hey thats just me...

[Jerry Hunsley]

Al, your looking at things too seriously. Your best teacher is yourself going out in all types of weather and conditions. When I started calling coyotes many years ago, it was easy and you didn't have to sound that great. You still don't, but through years of hunting you pick up little things that you remember and that is experience. The more time you put into somthing the better you get and perfect things. You already know that I'm sure. The guy giving the lessons and promoting his school is trying to make a buck or two and you can't condemn him for that. There are a lot of people out there that will use his service because they simply don't know anything about it and will pay the money. That process has been around many many years and will simply grow with time. I have seen soo many changes in the last 20 yrs. with so many callmakes and new products out there . Nothing wrong with that. That just shows you how the sport has grown. I do get a little irritated with some people out there that call a few coyotes and all of a sudden they are experts . It used to bother me , but now I just chuckle to myself and go about doing my thing. Numbers aren't a big deal to me anymore and I feel if I get out and have have a good time , see a few coyotes and get lucky once in awhile, it is a good day. Just spending time with a good friend in the field and worth plenty. I'm always willing to help people getting started and will help them as much as possible. All my learning has come from time in the field over the years. I will have to admit , I do learn somthing usually by going with someone who has called for a few years. You can always pick up somthing  going with somebody else. Some things are good and some things you question. I will say that with soo many callers out there  you need to develop different techniques and sounds. The days of just sitting on the hillside and blowing a distress sound are changing. It will still work, things are changing. I find myself changing sounds and sequences along with time intervals  more all the time. I have a friend who spends countless hours in the field calling and trapping coyotes and He has taught me a lot. There are plenty of people on the internet forums that are worth listening to and you have to weed the others out which is easy to an educated ear. So take it with a grain of salt , bite your tongue when need too , and keep posting. Just do your thing and enjoy your call making and coyote hunting.

[THO Game Calls]

Words of wisdom Mr Hunsley 

Thanks for a great post.  I know you understand what it's all about.

Al