When to set up

[KySongDog]

I posted this on another board but want y'alls opinion.  Last February at LBL I found some tracks and scat on an old dead end road that was pretty close to the lake.  The scat looked a day or two old to me.  I kicked the scat over to the side and covered it up.  Next day about 24 hours later I came back and found new scat about 3 or 4 feet from the old scat.  So I know at least one coyote is using the area. 

I set up and called the area and got nothing.  Maybe the coyote wasn't there when I called?  My question is this.  Should I call the same area morning, noon, and evening to try to catch the yote coming through?  Or is that way too much calling in the area?   For all I know the coyote is coming through at night.   How much is too much calling in an area you know has coyotes?

[weedwalker]

I don't know the answer Semp. But I have called a place in the morning with no results. Then called the same place that evening and got the coyote and bobcat that is in my avatar.

[THO Game Calls]

Have you seen this?  THE NARRAGANSETT BAY COYOTE STUDY

http://www.tivertonlandtrust.org/event_coyote.htm

Yes, it is an hour and a bit long, but it has some interesting info in it if you actually watch the entire thing.  Some of the results of study indicate the marking of core areas with scatt which you might find interesting and may apply to your case at the LBL, as well as the coyote movement within their teritories and more specifically, core areas..


AL

[KySongDog]

Thanks, Al.  That video has lots of useful info.  If the study findings are correct, then what I was looking at was the boundary of a core area. 

So back to the original question, How much is too much calling in an area you know has coyotes?

[pitw]

I won't use the same stand for at least 3 weeks up here.  I'm blessed with a lot of ground to hunt so wwhat I do will probably be different than down there.  Good luck.

[THO Game Calls]

Semp,

Since I have "never killed a coyote" take this for what it is worth.

Scat only tells you one thing for sure and two possible things.   For sure, there was a coyote there.  Possibly he (or she) was marking the boundries of their core area or possibly the coyote was just traversing it's territory and just had to take a dump?

Anyway, if a coyotes core area is somewhat less then 25% of it's total territory, and the territory size may vary from say 10 to 40 miles depending on population densities and food supply as well as the season, and you are on the fringe of that core area, the coyote could be anwhere in a one to 5 or more square miles area from where you are.  There was a pretty good article in the last Predator XTreme about cold calling, and JRBHunter was quoted in that article with a good technique that we use here also.   He moves into the core area making stands as he goes, until he finds or gets to where he thinks the main area, or heart of the core area  is, and then does a longer stand.

If you dont have the article, I can scan it and e mail it to you, but it was a good read on hunting wooded areas. 

So that might help with when and where - to set up.   As far as how often to call an area, there was a really good thread back when this board first started on how often to call an area, with a lot of different ideas.   I think, and no I can't prove it, but I think, that when you make a stand, even if you dont call anything in, the coyotes will know you were there.  Some stuff written by Rich Higgins, seems to point out that some coyotes will come in and investigate stands as much as 12 or more hours later.  True?  I dont know - never put up a trail cam in a spot where I was to see if it happened. 

I think it would take an awful lot to push a coyote completely out of it's core area.  Not out of a den site, they move pretty fast from what I have seen, but the entire core area would be tough.  They probably would just move to a different section of it?  I'm sure they dont use the same exact spots every day anyway, but they do have comfort zones within the core areas that they use more than others.  Once you find the type of cover within the core area they like to use the most, if you can find other types of cover like that in the core area, you might be able to find them if they move a bit or from day to day. 

I'm therefore not sure you can over call a core area, (probably if you hit it ever single day for a period of time)  but I am pretty sure you can make them call shy, or aware of you if you use the same calls over and over again. So I dont like to hunt the same spot more than once a month, 3 weeks at the earliest as was already said.   Now, I have hunted the core areas of coyotes from opposite sides at less intervals if he wind was right.  Sometimes the next day, sometimes a week later.  But then again, the core area may be a couple square miles or more so coming in from a different side might not be a big deal.  With the prevailing winds here from the north west in the late fall and winter, that makes it kind of hard unless we have a nor 'easter blowing in, and that makes for good calling right before the storm as the winds are coming from a different direction, so it can be done if planned right.

But again, the size of a the coyote family group is pretty limited, so even if you call the same area over and over, you are still just calling to the same 5 to maybe 8 coyotes.  How long would it take for them to just roll over when they hear your calls and look at each other with that "sheesh, doesn't this guy ever give up" look and go back to sleep?

Don't know if that helped or hindered but it's all I got and probably worth what you paid for it.

Al

[KySongDog]

Don't know if that helped or hindered but it's all I got and probably worth what you paid for it.

Al

Thanks again, Al, for taking the time to post that response.  And yes that does help a lot.  I was concerned about over calling the area.  So it sounds like if I vary my calls and move to different spots within the area (if the wind allows), I should be OK.  In these hills and hollows I don't think sound travels very far especially if the wind picks up at all. 

[George Ackley]

SORRY I WAS WRITING MY REPLY WHEN YOU POSTED


My opinion is I never thought you could do to much calling,
Unless you get busted doing it, and most of the time you get busted and never even know you tipped him off.
My opinion is that just because you didn't kill him at the time you where there dissent me he didn't come looking after you left,
So if you don't think you did get busted when you where there calling them, or when he investigated the area later after you left then I feel you can work that spot till you are busted.!!! but again you really don't know if he has busted you already or not. when you called him the first time my Bellevue is that he new what general area the sound was coming from so on the secant trip there call the same area but move your calling location a 100 or so yards and keep the wind in your favor.the secant time you start screaming my just make him not wont to miss this meal again.
Also if you have tried him or them on occasion move in and get aggressive, move in and sound out with your distress and get into some aggressive barks and maybe a short howl..
Give it a shot,, and if you have no luck move out of the area and return when they aren't so reluctant to come in running. return another time and get in on them on a good cold morning or evenings ,the colder the better, , I always felt the sun make then as lazy as it makes me,,,,, warn days in the fall you can always find me laying around napping. just figure out what days will be the most productive and move on them..
I think you can call them critters in that area a couple times a day and kill one at some point ,

AS LONG AS THEY NEVER BUST YEA, once you think your busted then i would lay low awhile
I don't feel unless they are heavily called areas that the coyote will put the sound of your call together with danger until you give them the reason to do so

kill them Semp

[alscalls]

I  have sprayed fox pee on my boots before going, only to return and find a coyote had been there and marked as well.
I have also sprayed my decoys in the field only to return to the property the next day or so to find a coyote had left scat where I had sprayed, or close by.
Sometimes I think they are just having fun with me and learning all they can about me........Other times I think ...MAN I wish I had been there to see that.
I have had them on several ocaisions walk right in my tracks......where I walked in! I would only know they were there by finding thier tracks on my way back to the truck.
I wish I knew what was too much or not enough of anything.......I just know I will never give up.
Only one way to find out Semp do it a bunch of times and see what happens..win or loose, you might learn something.

[Jrbhunter]

This topic is a popular one on predator calling boards- and I believe it was argued out in great length here on FNF shortly after it opened up.  Like most topics- it comes with variables that apply to each of us differently… and therefore the answer cannot be “cookie-cutter” for all.

Basically- I believe the “how hard do I call an area” question is answered by asking “how many other places do you have access too?”.   Some of us have a great amount of access locally, statewide and even nationwide in which we pursuit coyotes.  The rest of us have 2 farms- 12 miles apart- and a little piece of state ground down the road that everybody knows about.   The variable of ACCESS often defines the amount of time we can afford to spend on the same ole’ coyotes.

I have access to a lot of ground but I find myself learning more about coyotes and coyote hunting on land that I hit frequently and in areas that others hunt extensively.   In a perfect world we would simply hunt the farms that contain the most coyotes- least hunters- and highest percentages of call-ups.  While that is great for season totals, it doesn’t make use of the vast majority of our callable properties nor does it account for the increasing pressure on our coyotes and shrinking areas of virgin ears.  Calling virgin coyotes and yearling pups is great for blood on the tailgate but can leave a caller stagnant in his knowledge of these adaptive coyotes in a growing sport of killing them.

I personally do not believe a coyote can be over-called to the point he becomes unkillable.  Until last season I based this theory solely on the experience of government hunters and very successful callers.  Last year I had an experimental farm set aside and I pounded it relentlessly from September thru March.  I learned a lot on that farm- and I killed a lot of coyotes there.   Coyotes are still coyotes, even pressured coyotes.  

Although they are able to adapt well to attempts on their life- they adapt very predictably.  Any fighter will tell you 3rd round knock-outs don’t come from fatigue- they come from knowledge of an adapting fighter.  In a time of need- coyotes, and fighters, become even more predictable in their reactions to their surroundings.  So… in my opinion… a coyote that’s been called in 6 times and gutshot once is still very killable.  I wouldn’t make that claim if I hadn’t proven it for myself- and I understand it flies in the face of many aspiring callers who use “educated coyotes” as an incurrable excuse for failure.

One fundamental key to killing coyotes is to make them comfortable: the easiest way I’ve found to make a wary/nervous and callshy coyote comfortable is to get within his comfort zone before you begin pegging on his BS meter.   That’s where the tactic I described in Predator Xtreme comes from… killing old coyotes in already low populations on State owned properties that see serious pressure from all types of sportsmen.  If you can do that- the pups and virgins will bounce down the gun barrel.

In summation: I don’t make any attempt to hide the fact that I was there once I’m done calling an area.  I’ll drive my truck out to pickup a kill- I’ll take a piss next to where I sat.  When I smoked (quit 15 months ago) I would light one up between stands and leave the smoldering ash beside me while I called.  Weather or not a coyote smells you is kinda like the old adage about being “a little bit pregnant”.   I don’t care if he realizes 12 hours later that a hunter was there- he’s still an emotional K9 that licks his own ass and my ability to reason will ultimately kill him.  I had a thread running last year on this topic at Midwest Predator Hunters- I believe it was 7 coyotes I killed from the same stand over the course of 3 months and sketched out their approach routes after every hunt.  I say hunt them as hard as you have too.

[THO Game Calls]

Jason,

What would say are the contributing factors to being able to kill 7 coyotes from the same stand over a 3 month period?

Al

[Jrbhunter]

I wouldn't pretend to know them all, as there are always factors beyond the obvious.


1) Coyotes  <an area where populations can backfill quickly>

2) Hunting Smart  <hunting because I had the advantage, not because I had the time>

3) Hunting Hard <Patiently but methodically being in the right place... hoping it was the right time>

4) Triggering Coyotes  <Adjusting calling styles and setup tactics to accomodate the changes in coyote behavoir: both seasonal and pressure changes<

Those types of numbers are not indicitive of most areas I hunt.  However, it does translate.

Let's say I have a 900 acre tract of public hardwoods that I'm calling.  It gets pressured by every deer hunter, schplunker and coon hunter in the county: but it holds 3/5 resident coyotes all winter long.    That is 3/5 coyotes that I cannot afford to ignore- because much of my primary (60mile radius) calling area doesn't hold enough coyotes to sustain my 6 month 24/7 habit.  I will call those coyotes when conditions are most likely for me to succeed in that scenario: weather that revolves around a gap in deer firearms seasons or a light north wind: I will be there when it is most likely to benefit me.  I will not be there otherwise.

In the scenario I just laid out for you, in this 900 acre tract, I'm already instituting #1, #2 & #3 from the list above that helped me succeed repeatedly in an area of coyote abundance and easier stand selection.  I know they are there- I'm hunting them when they need to be hunted- and I'm doing it methodically without missing an opportunity to sieze the moment of rut/snowfall/dispersal/ect.   When they are most vulnerable, it's more likely that I will be there than any of the other callers in this region- bottom line.  That's when I have to follow thru with #4 and deliver the right line... sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

There are a million other variables to the equation- like scouting, locating, equipment, knowledge, shooting ability & reading body language.  I use the best equipment money can buy because I believe they statistically improve my odds (even if just slightly) and they're easily aquired with a little extra overtime in the offseason.  The rest of those variables fall on me, my brain, my boots, my experience and my ability to adapt: in other words---- they're my glaring weakness.   It's our ignorance that costs us coyotes- not their intelligence.

PS: I also think a lot of new callers or part-time hobby guys fail to realize just how many blank stands a succseful hunter makes.  I honestly don't know more than 1 or 2 guys in Indiana that have taken 10 coyotes in a season without breaking 100 stands- despite having much better populations and stand selection than many of us here.  If it were easy, I'd be reading Predator Masters right now for advice.

[THO Game Calls]

You mention backfill -

what has been your experience on transient coyotes(or other coyotes where ever they come from)  filling the gaps left by coyotes you (or others) have killed? 

How long do you think it takes for a family group to allow another animal in?  Or do they?  And if not, where does the backfill come from?

Thanks

Al

[Jrbhunter]

The filling-in process seems to fluxuate across the board.  Not only does the area (Terrain/Prey Availability/Population Density) have an effect on it, the timing of the kill seems to have a big impact too.  Although undocumented, my gut feeling is that any coyote killed in September/October in Indiana will easily be replaced by January/February.  If you wait later in the year- especially in an area of lower population density like these nasty wooded hills- it may not heal up in time to take advantage of it before fur season closes.  My most concrete evidence of this theory came from trapping and snaring: as its hard to call and kill enough coyotes to watch a true void backfill.

All of this of course relates back to population dynamics and family structure... things in which my (and most callers) experience is very limited.  In fact- there isn't a great understanding of Eastern & Midwestern coyote numbers at any level right now.  The article you posted recently on NE coyote behavior was actually handed to me in hard copy by a friend in 2005.   That research and others like it were some of my earliest attempts at patterning the processes of deep woods coyote.   With the help of my local librarian and a research consultant at the University of Purdue I have combed through quite a bit of paperwork over the years on coyotes.  Its hard to drawl conclusions from studies done 10 years ago in areas that were just seeing their first coyotes or from research performed on western coyotes in entirely different circumstances.

Speaking strictly hypothetically, I don't think the odds of calling a coyote on a given property one day are signifigantly reduced by simply killing one there the week before.  All things constant- it would be an even percentage removal of that one coyote versus however many frequent the property... say 1/4 or 25% deduction in odds.  Given the likelyhood of backfill, and the positive effects that come from removing a coyote, I'd say your collective loss may only be 8-10% in that situation instead of 25%.  If that makes any sense?   

You can't kill coyotes where no coyotes are... but good coyote country will inevitably hold coyotes.  They're fighting every day for it, and dying to get there.

[Frogman]

Very informative thread guys.  Thanks, keep it going..


Jim

[CCP]

I will give my opinion on educating coyotes and pressured coyotes.

I look at it this way and have observed this through the years.

Farmer drives out on the farm see's 4 coyotes takes a shot at them and kills one. Now every time farmer drives out the coyotes hear him and haul butt. This one time experience educated the coyote to every time someone drives up they head for cover. Now poor farmer has to slip out on foot and shoots one.  He tries it again and coyotes bust him coming and haul butt. Now they are educated to him walking down the fence row.

Here is another example

Sitting in tree stand watch coyote walking down trail my buddy 200 yards away shoots at a deer it is very loud. Coyote doesn't pay the gun shot any attention and carries on his way. Next week I see a coyote 200 yards away he doesn't know I am there I take a shot and miss coyote it then hauls butt.  I am sure most of you guys have observed the same with deer. Can a coyote tell if it is being shot at? Appears that way.

I have been many places and drove close to deer and go to other places and had deer run as soon as they see you. Now think! I have had people tell me animals forget in a week or two and if it aint hit then it didn't have a bad experience. Now shoot at a coyote or deer and miss from the truck then drive back out there in 3 weeks and see if he just sits there for you like he did the first time. You may have one from time to time but most will haul butt. Why? Educated?

Can some coyotes be continually called why sure! but most aint. We as man can set out to make most any animal on the planet extinct and succeed but he will never succeed at making the coyote extinct. He is a little more educated in survival than most.

There are exceptions and factors in everything and everything is not set in stone when it comes to the coyote. In my case I do not have access to much private land. Therefore I am not willing to take chances hunting a educated coyote I let him settle back in for as long as I can. If Iam hunting public land and only have a small window to hunt then I don't worry about educating them.

As MR Ed said "a horse is a horse of course of course" but as we all know all horses cant be ridin and all horses cant be made to drink water.