Contest Protests

[MattS]

Everyone check this out.  Hate emails for contest organizers have already started coming in.

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/coyote-killing-contest-prompts-howls/20070111100809990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Make sure you vote in the article.

[FinsnFur]

Wow, 223 thousand votes when I voted and there's only 2% lead in those who favor it.

[Jrbhunter]

Ever stop to think just how much traffic is driven when a writer puts together a piece with such a slant?    I mean "Coyote Killing Contest" pretty much says it all.    They know it's going to infuriate the anti's.... and the wording will obviously piss off the sportsmen.   So it's a win-win for them.    Kinda like election years where the media grabs onto the underdog and starts pumping him up... knowing it will rally his faithful followers and piss off everyone else.

I've noticed an increase in hate mail today- the Indiana Predator Challenge must've gained noteriety in an undesireable place.   

[slagmaker]

I had a lady in walmart  get all kinds of upset when I was lookiing at a rifle with a friend of mine. When the guy behind the counter asked what we would be hunting with it I said yotes and the lady went off, actually started yelling aat me and my friend right there in the store.something about how I shouldnt be killing helpless animals. I ignored her and I think that made here even madder.

Antis torqe me off

[MattS]

Like Jbr mentioned, I havn't had much experiance with this yet.  In five years of putting on a contest, this is my first hate mail.  I still think its funny, until like in Jbr's case when it gets old.

Every year I am expecting to find a line of protesters at my contest.  I am really hoping they show up with a couple news crews.  It will help get more hunters in the contest for next year.

[Bills Custom Calls]

I voted it is now 224,000   51% against and 49% for


Bill

[Jrbhunter]

Every year I am expecting to find a line of protesters at my contest.  I am really hoping they show up with a couple news crews.  It will help get more hunters in the contest for next year.

I think you'd be suprised how quickly coyote contest would be ended with enough national publicity.  Especially in a liberal state like Illinois.  Once those whackos found out it took GUNS to hunt coyotes- they'd be all for banning it.   I am constantly fighting for our right to compete here in Indiana but I can see it coming to legislation in the next ten years.   I got an email today from the office of my district ranger- saying there have been complaints made about my hunt weekend.  We'll be beefing up security accordingly I guess;

One thing that improves our odds of survival is unity.   Forums like this and communication amongst hunt coordinators are very helpful- at least we're better informed than we were five years ago.


These are the good ole' days guys... 

[Dsmith7136]

Okay, I'm going to jump in here with both feet and play devil's advocate for a minute just to give you guys another point of view to consider, though I don't expect many of you will agree with it.

Before you go all "Bubba" on me, let me preface this whole thing by stating that I'm no PETA Freak, Bunny Hugger, Animal Rights Idiot, or anything else of that nature. Nor am I even remotely sympathetic to their philosophies, causes or agendas. In fact, I'm vehemently opposed to all of them; they're founded in scientific ignorance, outright lies and blatant hypocrisy, and I've published numerous editorials over the years condemning all of them in defense of hunting. 

I've been hunting and fishing since I was old enough to zip my own fly and I'm sneaking up on 70 now, but I'm no fan of coyote calling contests, big buck tournaments or any other competitive hunting/ fishing events - including trophy or "tape-measure" hunting. 

They create a horribly distorted and incredibly destructive image of what traditional, fair chase hunting and game conservation is all about. Killing animals for fame, fortune, celebrity status, useless titles (do you really care that Joe Blow is the Grand Master Prairie Dog Champion of the World?), ego-gratification, bogus awards and big cash prizes portrays us and what we do in the worst possible light to the millions of non-hunters who have no clue what our real purpose is or what our responsibilities to our game herds and flocks are. It's evident from the number of hunting competitions, high-dollar canned hunts and closed-fence trophy hunts these days that a lot of us have lost sight of it too.

Hunting isn't, nor was it ever meant to be, about ego-gratification, score keeping and phony, grandiose titles. Shooting animals for the hell of it on one hand and then trying to convince the rest of the world on the other that we hold our game animals in the highest regard reeks of the same kind of hypocrisy the PETA freaks practice. 

The only reason sport hunting even continues to exist at all today is because we (hunters) provide a service as game managers and keepers of the nation's herds and flocks. Beyond that, we are of little use to society. We can't expect anyone to respect us if we demonstrate such transparent disrespect for the animals we supposedly revere - and that includes coyotes. It's one thing to hunt for food, personal challenge, or of necessity; it's quite another to kill for shits and giggles and then broadcast the results for prize money - which is exactly how these contests appear to the rest of the world.

Did you guys not see the avalanche of outrage from the national hunting community that accompanied the announcement of the WHA's World Deer Hunting Championship last summer? It was overwhelmingly opposed and rejected by every major, minor, national and international hunting club, association and conservation organization in the book, and hundreds of thousands of Joe Sixpack hunters like you and me. Prospective corporate sponsors pulled their support in sheer panic. The lesson should have been obvious.
 
I respectfully submit the written works of Finn Aagard, Jim Posewitz, Valerius Geist and other highly regarded hunting conservationists and animal behaviorists should be required reading for all of us. If we're not careful how we represent ourselves and our passion for hunting, we'll lose it to popular opinion. And we'll have deserved it.

After all, this isn't about giving in to political correctness; it's about being smarter than those who continually search for excuses to get rid of us. Let's not give them any. Have your contests if you like; just don't expect the non-hunting public to believe you're performing some noble deed on their behalf. They ain't buying it. Neither am I - and I'm on your side.

Respectfully,

Dennis

[kiyitec]

I voted.
            I am sure you could think of someone there local to organize A HUGE protest.  Heck, they have to eat somewhere, sleep somewhere, etc.  Maybe they could buy out all the ammo, calls, camo, etc for 100 miles just so the hunters couldn't use it.  That would help
The camera crews couldn't hurt A thing either, they tend to keep people in line or turn them into
nutcases.  Either way you win.
      It's the editing that'll stab ya in the back.
   The hate mail is prolly long overdue for anyone advertising on the net.  One pebble can start A landslide.
$0.04 worth, I always end up paying double. KT

[studabaka]

I'm with Dennis on this one. I can't rationalize a contest as either hunting or effective adc work.

Guess their within their rights, so I'll leave it alone, but stuff like that tends to load the wrong guns.

[Bopeye]

Well I vote for the hunts, but it's just for fact that I know those that are totally against my way of life ie hunting and firearms voted against it. It is still 51% against and 49% for these hunts.

I really can't pass judgement on these hunts one way or the other as I have never been to one. However, I doubt very seriously if they would be my cup of tea. 

[KySongDog]

I've heard somewhat similar comments about IDPA matches.  "Why do you want to practice killing people?"  The anti's will always argue a point that suits their purpose notwithstanding the real facts.

[blakcoyote]

Okay, I'm going to jump in here with both feet and play devil's advocate for a minute just to give you guys another point of view to consider, though I don't expect many of you will agree with it.

Before you go all "Bubba" on me, let me preface this whole thing by stating that I'm no PETA Freak, Bunny Hugger, Animal Rights Idiot, or anything else of that nature. Nor am I even remotely sympathetic to their philosophies, causes or agendas. In fact, I'm vehemently opposed to all of them; they're founded in scientific ignorance, outright lies and blatant hypocrisy, and I've published numerous editorials over the years condemning all of them in defense of hunting. 

I've been hunting and fishing since I was old enough to zip my own fly and I'm sneaking up on 70 now, but I'm no fan of coyote calling contests, big buck tournaments or any other competitive hunting/ fishing events - including trophy or "tape-measure" hunting. 

They create a horribly distorted and incredibly destructive image of what traditional, fair chase hunting and game conservation is all about. Killing animals for fame, fortune, celebrity status, useless titles (do you really care that Joe Blow is the Grand Master Prairie Dog Champion of the World?), ego-gratification, bogus awards and big cash prizes portrays us and what we do in the worst possible light to the millions of non-hunters who have no clue what our real purpose is or what our responsibilities to our game herds and flocks are. It's evident from the number of hunting competitions, high-dollar canned hunts and closed-fence trophy hunts these days that a lot of us have lost sight of it too.

Hunting isn't, nor was it ever meant to be, about ego-gratification, score keeping and phony, grandiose titles. Shooting animals for the hell of it on one hand and then trying to convince the rest of the world on the other that we hold our game animals in the highest regard reeks of the same kind of hypocrisy the PETA freaks practice. 

The only reason sport hunting even continues to exist at all today is because we (hunters) provide a service as game managers and keepers of the nation's herds and flocks. Beyond that, we are of little use to society. We can't expect anyone to respect us if we demonstrate such transparent disrespect for the animals we supposedly revere - and that includes coyotes. It's one thing to hunt for food, personal challenge, or of necessity; it's quite another to kill for shits and giggles and then broadcast the results for prize money - which is exactly how these contests appear to the rest of the world.

Did you guys not see the avalanche of outrage from the national hunting community that accompanied the announcement of the WHA's World Deer Hunting Championship last summer? It was overwhelmingly opposed and rejected by every major, minor, national and international hunting club, association and conservation organization in the book, and hundreds of thousands of Joe Sixpack hunters like you and me. Prospective corporate sponsors pulled their support in sheer panic. The lesson should have been obvious.
 
I respectfully submit the written works of Finn Aagard, Jim Posewitz, Valerius Geist and other highly regarded hunting conservationists and animal behaviorists should be required reading for all of us. If we're not careful how we represent ourselves and our passion for hunting, we'll lose it to popular opinion. And we'll have deserved it.

After all, this isn't about giving in to political correctness; it's about being smarter than those who continually search for excuses to get rid of us. Let's not give them any. Have your contests if you like; just don't expect the non-hunting public to believe you're performing some noble deed on their behalf. They ain't buying it. Neither am I - and I'm on your side.

Respectfully,

Dennis

Theres no such thing as fair chase,if there were we'd all be chasin' critters nekidd.Our society is screwed up,they think these contest are disrespectful,they just never hunted.It's not ok to kill animals or fish for money,but it's perfectly fine to watch guys beat each others brains in for big bucks,like boxing,ultimate fighting,football,etc.Everyone in sports these days seem to be out for the big bucks,but have a few hunters try to make a few bucks on what they do best and all hell breaks loose,gimme a break.I'll support all forms of legal hunting,trapping or fishing,whether it's labeled fair chase or not.The term fair chase,is a 4 letter word in my book,it's used more against us than for.And dats what I got ta say 'bout dat.

Hunt away.

[FinsnFur]

Dennis makes a pretty good point.
All though I dont entirely agree with the whole post, I think you outline some pretty awakening issues Dennis.

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a lot of people in the world yet today that grew up knowing nothing but hunting. You put a wrench in their hand and their gonna look at you like this 
You give them a computer and their gonna do this 
You ask them to read something they may look like this 

I'm not talking about Aborigines, but if you go back far enough as long as man has been hunting, it's easier to relate.
Things change, they evolve, stakes are increased, new challenges are born as another revolution is brought forth. The same thing has happened to hunting,  as it has for many many things in our world over the years..... hunting contests are the ultimate example.

The near 50/50 results of the above poll, when taking into consideration the things brought forth here already, doesn't honestly look that bad.

My guess would be that the senior generation would be mostly against the contest hunts, since it in their minds decapitates their tradition, but no one is ever going to be able to halt evolution and the contests, is hunting... evolved.

Now to deal with the evolved antis 
How many of us had grandparents that told us stories about antis? Probably not too many.

By the way, welcome to the board Dennis. I do respect your post 

[Dsmith7136]

Everyone in sports these days seem to be out for the big bucks,but have a few hunters try to make a few bucks on what they do best and all hell breaks loose,gimme a break.I'll support all forms of legal hunting,trapping or fishing,whether it's labeled fair chase or not.The term fair chase,is a 4 letter word in my book

That's precisely the kind of attitude I'm referring to, Blakcoyote. It's all about the money, isn't it?
Everybody's out to make a buck. To hell with ethics, tradition, heritage, respect for wildlife and our public image as long as we can kill for the thrill - and the money.

Well, we need to do better than that or we'll lose all our hunting privileges - one by one.  

It's not PETA and the lunatic fringe we have to worry about; the vast majority of reasonable people know they're just a bunch of extremist flakes. It's the  general "non-hunting" population and their swing votes who  ultimately pass judgement on us and our behavior. They outnumber us and all the anti groups put together, and that imflammatory - we kill for the thrill because it's legal and we can - rhetoric is exactly the kind of thing that pushes them over the edge.

We need to clean up our image or they'll clean it up for us. Who do you think decided the issues banning mountain lion hunts, spring bear hunts, running bears and foxes with hounds, leg-hold traps and trapping?

As long as the general public feels we're providing a service by controlling game herd populations ethically and humanely, we'll have their support. Killing animals for cash prizes and bogus titles is a sure way to lose it. Bragging about it is even worse; it diminishes and demeans us. As it should.

[Arkyyoter]

Very interesting and informative read guys.....thanks for the posts and insight....

There have been compelling points raised. These need to be digested by many of us.

No matter whether you agree with Dennis, his post was extremely well written. He is obviously well educated, has an opinion, and is not overly hesitant about expressing it. He and his ilk are in great demand, by both sides of this vexing proposition. It is my suggestion we accept and embrace him as one of our flock, and treat all with dignity and respect, whether or not we agree with everything written.

Two things come to mind, (other than the fact I am an ignorant old Hillbilly) :

1) The pen is, in fact, mightier than the sword...most especially when wielded skillfully.

2) It is also true if we don't hang together....we shall all certainly hang separately.


Though this present situation may be relatively recent, the argument is not. There have historically been losses and gains by both sides. It seems it has been governed by the "Pendulum Effect." The pendulum has, unfortunately began to cant to the left.

I am not certain as to the answers, but I am certain we must all, collectively,  endeavor to alleviate even the appearance of impropriety within our ranks.  We must maintain remain active in the pursuit of our cause, but do so stoically, and with dignity and unity amongst ourselves.

Dennis is certainly right about one thing...it is not the lunatics we need to fear, it is the "Hoi Poloi."


Welcome to the board Dennis...


Joe

[Jrbhunter]

The anti's are either very smart or very lucky.  In that- they've been able to get people like Dennis to seperate themselves from the sporting community and throw stones at the rest.   Bow hunters against crossbow, shotguns against rifles, houndsmen against trappers.   This is how the sporting community will be devided- by selfish groups wishing to cut the opportunities of others for their own benefit.   Some driven by greed, others by selfishness and jealousy, these "Factions" argue and bicker enough to keep anti's smiling.  I have been a part of these fights in Indiana on several occasions, at public input meetings it seems 90% of the complaintants are high road elitist... the other 10% are completely misinformed and acting on emotion.

The public perception of hunting is not fairly reflected in an online survey- ESPECIALLY not one tucked in a liberal article like that.   The fact I've seen that survey posted on 6 hunting forums tells me the results are slanted away from the general public perception.  I'm sure the anti's have done the same- so 50/50 is really a better reflection of how organized hunters/anti's are online.

Hunters who throw the term "Ethically" around online have notoriously been anti-opportunity for years.  Cutting away at everything from trapping to snaring to hunting preserves to coyote contest...  so-called hunters are our biggest adversary.  For someone who believes it's unethical to kill a coyote during a contest- it's not a big leap for them to support banning snares.   Once snares are gone, who really needs traps?   The next thing you know, this high and mighty "hunter" has himself on a pedestal by practicing the only "RIGHT" way to enjoy the outdoors.   This has happened with hunting, hounding and trapping across the country.  Predator Hunting is apparently growing, since we've now got guys ready to seperate themselves and split up our tribe.   It's scary really, how such a small minority is in such a rush to disband and point fingers.

[blakcoyote]

Everyone in sports these days seem to be out for the big bucks,but have a few hunters try to make a few bucks on what they do best and all hell breaks loose,gimme a break.I'll support all forms of legal hunting,trapping or fishing,whether it's labeled fair chase or not.The term fair chase,is a 4 letter word in my book

That's precisely the kind of attitude I'm referring to, Blakcoyote. It's all about the money, isn't it?
Everybody's out to make a buck. To hell with ethics, tradition, heritage, respect for wildlife and our public image as long as we can kill for the thrill - and the money.

Well, we need to do better than that or we'll lose all our hunting privileges - one by one.  

It's not PETA and the lunatic fringe we have to worry about; the vast majority of reasonable people know they're just a bunch of extremist flakes. It's the  general "non-hunting" population and their swing votes who  ultimately pass judgement on us and our behavior. They outnumber us and all the anti groups put together, and that imflammatory - we kill for the thrill because it's legal and we can - rhetoric is exactly the kind of thing that pushes them over the edge.

We need to clean up our image or they'll clean it up for us. Who do you think decided the issues banning mountain lion hunts, spring bear hunts, running bears and foxes with hounds, leg-hold traps and trapping?

As long as the general public feels we're providing a service by controlling game herd populations ethically and humanely, we'll have their support. Killing animals for cash prizes and bogus titles is a sure way to lose it. Bragging about it is even worse; it diminishes and demeans us. As it should.

The only thing that demeans us,is others hunters bashing other hunters for the way they hunt,fish or trap.Saying there way is more ethical,it's a cannabilistic attitude among the hunting community.Some hunters fall into the lie that if they attack certain types of hunting it'll appease those that are against them and maybe make there WAY look more PC.Look at MI where hound hunters got bobcat trapping banned,with the help of the HSUS,or IN,where hunting groups helped ban high fence,little do these groups realize,it's just a matter of time before their self devouring attitude will come back to haunt them,after all it was them that helped show the public they were against it as well.As far as the coyote contests go,theres absolutely no difference between them and sat. morning big buck hunting on tv,or all the DVDs out there,it's still done with the dollar in mind,only difference is the big buck hunting has more of a following,and brings in more money to the guys doing it.

Again,I'll defend all forms of legal hunting.When a group like hunters show the public that they are divided on issues,the public will go with the loudest one,because they do not know what the issues are in reality,themselves.I believe if we support eachother,it shows the non-hunting public,we really do know what we're talking about.When all the experts are saying the same thing,it's more credible,but when the experts are divided,it instills doubt in the unknowing,and they'll side with who's more convincing.So when hunting groups are fighting eachother,because there way is different than how they hunt,their only signing their own death warrant down the road,because there won't be nobody on there side,when there way is the only thing left.The anti's know this,and there just biding there time,letting us,destroy ourselves from the infighting amoung the different hunting groups.

[Arkyyoter]

Amen on the support for each other and unity......we MUST.


Joe

[studabaka]

I should know better.....but

I pretty much view it that I can think what I wanna think and support what I wanna support. Sure I abid by the laws/regulations, but that doesn't mean they are my definition of right/wrong, good/bad, ethical/not ethical, appropriate/inappropriate, ok/not ok, inspiring/uninspiring, etc. There are certain regulations that I don't agree with and there are things allowed within the regulations that are [as best put by Bopeye] 'not my cup to tea.

Does that make me a bad hunter/sportsman? Am I the enemy? Will me and folks like me be the undoing of our sport? Everyone's entilted to their opinion...... mine is that's bunk and an approach that says we define good and evil by who thinks/doesn't think that ALL who tote a gun and carry a license or any behavior or motivation within the regs are the same...seems a bit simplistic to me.

I'm not pounding the table saying their should not be contests, but I'm not pounding the table saying there should be either. As for it being a linch pin that will impact my right to hunt the way I want to.... I don't think so, but if it is it will be because of the up roar caused from it being allowed verses if it just wasn't there to feed negative sentiment.