Rubber Roofs

[George Ackley]

philly chimney flashing

[FinsnFur]

Ok George so what you call barge board is actually the facia boards on the ends. And then the sides your back to calling it facia boards
Were starting to match up our color books.

Now...George, cladding? Seriously? LOL Can you edit that pic and call it siding?
Oh and that chimney flashing picture...thats pretty much a global gimme. Actually I dont even know any other way to do it.

Up & over the fascia as in a porch roof built under your soffit & attached to the house wall. The roofing would then go "up & over the fascia" & onto the roof to be finished off with shingles across the top.

Ohhhhhhhh k. Now were starting to pick up the pieces HaMeR.   
I dont have a roof under an eave.....ooooops, I mean facia. I got flat running into what I'm going to call a shingled 8/12. It might be 6/12 but I doubt it. There's no transition, it's just flat to that...hey that ryhmed

But regardless I know how I want to do that. What I'm gimping over is how to do the facia/bargeboard/eave facing Pennsylvania.
When we did shingle roofs, we would rip off the old drip edge, put on new, and then shingle right over the drip edge cutting the shingles off a 1/4" past the drip edge. Which gave them a 1/4 inch to shrink and be flush with the drip edge.
But the dude in this video acts likes he's not even using any drip edge, or if he is...is he doing just like we do shingles and it's underneath? Then he'll cut the rubber flush with the drip edge? Is that the way to do it? Cause he knocked off when he got that far? 

[HaMeR]

The pic you posted from the video was just a pic for me. It wouldn't play as a video. But it looks like he's glueing that rubber down.

And we are in the same book now.    Cut the bottom back & replace the drip edge. Spray it with a roofing primer & let it dry. Then roll the Flint over that & just use your massive a  foot to walk it down.    Row after row til you get it to the shingles. Then pull as many shingles out as you need to so you can get it a good 18" +/- up under. Replace the shingles & done.

Flintatstic tips.    Cut your pieces to length on the ground. You'll like this idea when you pick up your 1st roll. DO NOT walk on that stuff when you are cutting the pieces to length.  Measure the roll width & snap a chalk line leaving 1/2"- 3/4" hanging over the bottom drip edge. Make each piece 2" longer than needed if you have rake edges for trimming. Buy hook style blades to cut it. The backing plastic is split down the middle. Lay the piece out & adjust it then stand above it & pull the plastic out at a low sharp angle. The product won't move if you're careful. There is also a plastic over the seal strip. This will be the last piece you remove each time. And DO NOT walk on it while the plastic is still on it. 

[FinsnFur]

Geeeez,that gave me unbelievable flash backs of the day
Thats exactly how we installed the ice guard. To  a "T"

In fact the only difference is     There's is no difference.
That thin film over the adhesive is a sumbitch to get off it gives way while peeling too
I used to talk every one of our rookie summer helpers to walk the length of the Ice guard once I got it rolled it, so it would stick down. They never did get both feet on it. And they never did it again.
Hey ya had to teach how dangerous it was, right?

[FinsnFur]

Ok, it's snowing, sleeting and raining There'll be no pics taken up there today

[George Ackley]

Sorry Jim I am the owner of a HVAC & R ,not a roofer,
You sound as though your have a back ground in roofing , first let me say I am sorry to hear that.
roofers work in to many harsh condition for me .
but being you have been a roofer I would have thought you would be able to have your questions answer by your  suppier. when i read your question it was under the impression you new nothing of roofing , i dont or did i know your work back grouhd and clearly you have been roofing for some time and know about some roofing.
.
So I will just bail out of this one , good luck and if it where me i be torching it down anyway

[HaMeR]

I don't know if you had a product up there called Grace Ice & Water shield or not. But if you did & ever used it on a hot day you would hate that stuff IMMEDIATELY!!    Damn was that stuff sticky.

The Flintastic goes down exactly like the ice guard EXCEPT you really should primer the new drip edge to ensure no wind lift. Both on the bottom & up the rake edges if you have any on this job. That stuff can go over one layer of old rolled roofing if you nail or cut the bubbles out 1st. That stuff really is that good.

I seen a guy get wrapped up in that Grace once on a hot day. I swear by the time the 2 guys that wrapped him up got him unwrapped they were soooooooo apologetic it wasn't even funny. They hurt that poor guy ripping it back off. THAT never happened again either.  I'm surprised he didn't find a vacant ripping shovel laying around to exact some revenge. I prolly woulda. 

[FinsnFur]

George, I wasnt trying to demean you in anyway, or run you off. I'm not bashful, I'm pretty sure you've seen me run my mouth when I'm agitated...so you'd know

I was however intrigued with the varying terminology on some of this stuff. It's interesting to say the least, how different areas use different names for things. I thought we were all enjoying ourselves.

And yes I do have a plenty of experience in roofing. I worked construction for many many many years, part of which included being a licensed subcontractor for Wick.
But...and again I'm not trying to demean you here or anything but if you go back and look at the very first sentence in my very first post which started this thread, I think you'll see that you may have missed something

[FinsnFur]

Ok..I got my pics 
Hey HaMeR I was going to ask you, since you've used this before...what was it called again?...Flintstones? 

Will that stuff hold up to ponding? Cause I think thats why rubber was used on this section before. It does pond up.

But here's what were looking at. It's looks like a disaster with the snow melting off it all day in the pic. It's got a 12" overhang with vented soffit.
The silver white area near the right side is where I discovered pin holes this past fall, so I went up and poured sealer over that area. It actually buckled the rubber too Weird.



Here's a better shot of that transition Im dealing with. Look how that silver sealer buckled the rubber in that area. Some of that is snow but still. Thats nuts.




And then since you got roofer in your blood HaMeR...do you remember a few years ago when Certainteed came out with what they called solid slab shingles?
Man those things were the cats asperatus to all roofers. Finally a one piece, standard sized shingle, with built in spacers. And it was so easy to apply with the spacing a monkey do it. Man they were nice!

Shortly after they came out, Owens Corning was steering towards major financial slumps because apparently the black solid slabs were defective. But it was never declared a major problem until they were literally and completely overwhelmed with legitimate warranty redeeming by thousands of people. It was then that they took them off the market.
Boy did we make a pile of money that year re-roofing all our old jobs for warranty pay. 

Unfortunately we was so busy with that, mine got set on the back burner. So I got stuck with mine.
Look at the difference on this section of the house.
The left side faces directly North, and the right faces directly...well...duh. But look at the difference.

[HaMeR]

First off I hated to run those damn shingles. I'm glad they are gone. 

The rubber buckling like that is most likely the sealer eating the rubber. Now I have no experience with that rubber other than I know it doesn't care for petroleum based products on it for extended periods of time. The little bit of that stuff we did run we cleaned the seams with gas & a rag but that stuff will flash off completely. So that pic makes me wonder if the sealer used was petroleum based.

That is about as straight forward as you can get for a flat to pitch roof scenario. Pull about 4-5 rows of those shingles off the roof. Run the Flintstones  roofing product up 18"-24". You can get that stuff in gray so you'll only need to replace all but one of those rows. Maybe 2. I say this because you'll want to keep your nails up away from the transition/break in the roof pitches. I also said bottom 2 rows so you'll have something to work with on the chimney front.

Now pull off the bottom row of siding on that little front & up the long side. Run the product right up the wall about 8"-10".  Silicone across the top & replace the siding. You can reinstall the J-channel with silicone on the back for sealing around the nails when you re-attach it. Not necessary down here because we don't get the snow piling up like you do up there. Just a little CYA if you know what I mean. 

Ponding-- OK. That roof has pitch to it. I can see it from here.  insert smilie with binos here  With that being said the ponding is across the very bottom. Sounds & looks to me like there is a buildup of drip edgeings or maybe an extra layer of roofing across the bottom foot or so. The other culprit could be if there is insulation board under that roof it's gotten wet enough times that the snow loads has crushed it.  I believe looking from here tho it's a buildup of drip edging or extra layers of roofing. Kinda like a starter shingle. One other thought on the bottom is that there is a 1x12 board across the bottom & then they used 1/2" ply or OSB to sheath the rest of the deck. I can see the line across there in pic 1. We see a lot of homes built in the 70's with a 1x6 pine board across the bottom & plywood ran from there up with no drip edge. Our conclusions,, albeit not scientifically proven is that the 1x6 will take the ice dams better than the plywood will & drip edge isn't necessary. That's the point I'm trying to make but I seem to get lost & take the long way around.

The South face always gets hammered with a lot of sun.    Now get those changed out too. 

Anymore questions just fire away. I might be qualified to help but right at the moment I can't find my Certainteed Master Shingler Certification papers to prove it.    I need to find those in case I get called out on that. We never know when a Certainteed rep will show up & ask for at least one of our papers. 

[HaMeR]

  Any idea why you had pinholes in the rubber? There's no gutter above it so that could eliminate icicles. Not totally but it could.


BTW-- Fix your damn porch light. How's the pizza driver sposed to find you?? 

[FinsnFur]

I'm not sure what those pin holes were from. Age?
How I found them was the gahd damdest way. I was up there looking around last fall cause after a monsoon I had some water dripping inside. I walked around up there and found nothing.
I walked up the shingled part a little bit and looked over the step flashing and stuff, and when I turned around there was water right there on the rubber.

I thought WTF? I just walked over that and it was dry.
So I got a towel, dried it off, and walked over it again. Tiny drops of water started appearing.
I was squeezing water up out of the rubber when I walked right there.
I came to the conclusion that when it was hot those pin holes opened as the rubber expanded, and let the water in, and closed up as it cooled and retracted.

How come you didnt like those solid slabs? Mannnnnn I thought those things were sweet.

IF I do go with the Flintstones, I think it'll be pretty much like a regular shingle job, all the way down to the drip edge.
What I was worried about going with rubber, was how to finished the west end of this roof. (side with the ladder) You know?....run the rubber over like a shingle or? The dude in the video ran up to Hooters and never came back. That was just a screen shot by the way. I captured it as the video croaked. Thats why you couldnt click it.

Which reminds me, the step your seeing in the picture is from the prior installation. They nailed the drip edge on top to sort of act like a hem and hold down the rubber, plus give it the finished look. THEN they layed another strip of rubber over the nail line the length of the roof to cover all those.
But thats my main question with the rubber. How to finish that front edge, cause I dont think who ever did it before done it right.

And I even if I do find a 1x6 or something on that leading edge and eliminate it to reduce the step, I can still guarantee ya there's going to be some ponding, especially in the winter.
Thats actually my kitchen, and as you can tell by the height, there's not much room for a lot of insulation. Which means in the winter when there's 6 feet of snow up there and I'm down below sucking on a can of BudLight, making chicken wings in the oven and turkey rolls, there's....ehhhh...you know where I'm going   So do you know if that stuff can hold up to ponding?
I can check when I go product shopping, just curious if you knew up front. It might eliminate it from the running all together

[FinsnFur]

I got pissed off at the ex wife 12 years ago for not shutting that friggin light off at night. I finally went out one night and pulled the damn thing off the side of the house (can you say anger management)

Besides thats the backyard.

[HaMeR]

I didn't like the little hook they had on the end. If the roof had little dips between the trusses they never seemed to line up quite right. They felt way too thin & cheaply made as well. They cut way to easily which lead me to believe they weren't any better than a 20year shingle at the time. Valleys were a pain the rear too. It seemed like I was always stuck doing them all because nobody else took the time they required to stay on line as you went up the valley. And those damn things made my arms itch unlike any other shingle I've been around. 

Ok back to work now. 

I understand exactly how you found that leak. The insulation,, or whatever is under that rubber,, was soaked is all. You jst went up there at the right time & stepped in the right place. Good job. 

The leading edge on the west end is really very simple. Get the biggest drip edge you can find. Of have somebody with a break make you some 4"x4" from coil stock. Gutter coil would be best. It's heavier. Tear all the old crap off 1st. Run a 1/2,, or full row,, of ice & water shield on the deck. Put the new metal over that. Have it primed with a roofing primer. the Flintstones roofing will adhere itself to that metal. Forever too I might add.  Continue up the roof row by row. Just like ice & water shield or felt paper. the ponding should go away once the height difference is taken away 7 you'll have free flow to the gutter. That stuff is specifically designed for any roof under,, I think,, a 3/12 pitch. The ice guard on the bottom against the deck is for ice dam buildup. Now you have protection between the drip edge & the wood as well as over the drip edge. Run the product 1/2"-3/4" over the drip edge. Whatever you're comfortable with. The Hooters roofer was PROBABLY<< >> more than likely but I have to ASSume here<< >> going to terminate his leading edge with the same type of metal I mentioned. It's just an L metal with a little kick on the bottom to push the water drops out into the gutter & not behind it. The 4"x4" is also guesswork on my part. Go with what your gutter will allow so you don't have to cut around the brackets.

I would not hesitate to use that product for your application. Not for a second. We've run a lot of that stuff the last 4 years or so & none has come up or leaked that I'm aware of.

Now I will mention one other thing. Right where the pitch break is. Over by the wall. Obviously you won't get anything to double bend right there. Aint gonna happen without a pucker. Make a cut from the bottom of the pucker out at a 45* angle. Shoot the hole full of black jack,, roof cement in a caulking tube,, & push it down & into the wall 1st. Lap the upper part of that cut over the lower part. The black jack will squeeze out of a small hole & that's good. Don't be shy with it. That's just the way it is at that point. Caulk that seam too.



Honestly you have a perfect setup for pitching that roof up to about a 3/12. Start at the front of the chimney & run new rafters to the leading edge. Spike those into the top wall plate & sheath it. Ice guard on the bottom 2 rows for those Wisconsin winters & shingle it up. 


  Yes they did it right by double rubbering the bottom. At least that is the way I see them do it around here.

[FinsnFur]

I know how I'm going to do the pitch break over by the wall. Well, I know how I'm going to try it anyway. The Hooter guy did show me that much
He ran it along the flat first, then the side wall, and then as he went up the slope he found himself gaining material obviously, so he folded it back on itself on the wall. Kinda like wrapping the ends of a box with Christmas paper. It was pretty sick No cuts, and if you lift the edge before nailing it or sticking it to the wall, you lose the pucker too. Actually it's under the siding and the roof surface stays down.
You think I can bend Fred and Barney that much? or not?

Another question...why do you keep saying to spray the drip edge with a roofing primer? The stuff comes in aluminum or steel and it's painted. I dont get it. But I do like the idea of making some wider I got several buddies with their own brakes.

I've talked about running some jack rafters down that thing and eliminating the flat altogether. Yeah it would be real easy, I agree. Problem is, it's going to have to wait until I can afford to do it cause it'll be quite a bit more then repairing this one for now.

Have you heard bad things about the rubber? I've never used it.
But something keeps telling me in the back of my head that no seems is much better then several seems on a flat.

[HaMeR]

That sounds like a good way to treat the break. Give it a shot. I'm interested in seeing how well it works. That stuff is surprisingly pliable for it's thickness. On a warm day you can do anything you want with it except stretch it. It doesn't stretch. 

Putting a primer on the drip edge makes that seam impenetrable & permanent. The coating/paint on the drip edge isn't the best for holding power. It can let go over time. So we just spray em. You will like wider hand made drip edge too.

I've not heard anything bad about the rubber you have on there now. Other than it doesn't like pteroleum based products on it for long periods of time. The Flintstone stuff I've heard nothing bad about it. But it too stands to reason the exposure to petroluem will eat it. I would not hesitate to use it on my roof in that same situation. There are no granules on the seams so you get a good solid bond when they come into contact with each other.  And I know you know all about great bonds. 

[George Ackley]

I would think that the room with the flat roof was a addition added to the home at some point.  with the weather you get a wonder why the went with a flat roof at all.

[FinsnFur]

I think it was an addition too George, but I got no evidence. And it's actually the kitchen, I can't imagine them moving all the plumbing to a new room, but hey the flat roof is stupid so who know what they did. 

HaMeR...you must be referring to bare metal drip edge then. Cause you say the paint on the painted can let go anytime.
It wouldnt do any good to prime over the paint then.

[HaMeR]

   I'll try this again. The paint doesn't let go. The rubber doesn't adhere as strongly to it. The primer is the middle man that makes a permanent bond. Shoulda just said it that way originally I spose. 

[FinsnFur]

Ahhhhhhh!
Now I'm picking up what your laying down