Archery help needed quick!

[Purgatory_Predator_Calls]

First off, mods if this is not the appropriate forum to post this in please relocate it where you think it will get the most exposure.

I've got a BIG problem here fellers.  This year will be my first year hunting big game with a bow.  I've always owned a bow but never did anything but shoot targets and rabbits.  In preparation for this years elk and deer seasons I've been punching holes in my block target for the past couple months.  Got to where I can shoot a 5" group at 40 yards consistently.  All this shooting has been done with a 07 Fred Bear Element bow, Easton ST Excel 340 carbon arrows, and regular 100 gr field points.  Elk season starts Sep. 1 so yesterday I decided I'd better start practising with 100 gr Muzzy broad heads.  I was planning on shooting these heads all along. 

So here's my problem.  Now I'm am lucky to get a 6" group at 20 yards. (I was to scared to try 30 or 40)  The arrows are flying like a tornado with the rear of the arrow not following the head.  WHAT gives?????  Called the man at the closest bow shop (70 miles west) and he said it would be simple as re-sighting the bow to shoot the new boradheads.  Explained that by adding the broad heads I essentially added another set of fletching to the front of my arrow.  Well while at work last night I re-sighting shooting a single arrow.  Got it pretty good.  Started shooting 3 arrows and am lucky to get them within 6" at 20 yards.  I won't lie I'm kinda starting to freak out being as season starts in less than a week and last week I saw a good 340" bull not 150 yards from my tree stand. 

Hope someone here can help me, as I'm not an experienced archer and really have no clue what to do.  I don't have a lot of faith in ole Herb at the bow shop so I'll take any and all advice.

Joey Gacnik

[DirtyDog]

Yoey.....welcome to the nature of the beast. I had the same problem. The problem is that broadheads in many cases fly different out of every bow. I hate to say it, but try to shoot several different broadheads and see which one flies the best. Another option is mechanical broadheads if they are legal. Mechanical broadheads seem to fly a bit more true that standard broadheads. I am by no means an expert, but that is what I went through. Mine did the same thing, so I took 4 different broadheads and got Thunderheads to fly true. Good luck and let us know.

Joe

[CypressSlough]

Joey, I had the exact same problem with Muzzy heads. I could only get them to an 8" group. I switched to Rocket Ultimate Steel 100gr, and they shoot exactly like my field points. Your arrows may be too light for the Muzzy heads. What is the length of your arrows? What type and size of fletching are you using? Are you using a right or left helical or a straight fletching? If it is helical, does it match the broadheads natural twist? What is your draw weight set at? Are your arrows and broadheads balanced together? If they are heavier to one side, they will not group. Even getting all of this right, some broadheads just won't shoot in some bows.

Like Joe said, different broadheads can make a huge difference in how your bow shoots. I went through 4 or 5 different heads before I found some that group consistently.

Hope you get it figured out quickly,

Brian.

[KySongDog]

I use the old Bear super razor heads, 74 lb bow and no sights (instinctive).  Have been since the '70's.  I keep shots at 30 yards or less.  The new fangled stuff that is out there today is beyond me.  Too many variables to consider.  But I do know you need to practice with the same heads you hunt with.  The spine of the arrow you are using may not be stiff enough for the head.  Dunno for sure.  Lots of variables.......

Semp

[rainshadow1]

It's expensive, but as above, you gotta find the right heads for your set-up. I used to shoot muzzies exclusively, but I was pulling a TSS (now defunct) bow at 96lbs peak weight, and arrows that resembled telephone poles! No problems. Now I shoot a Bear/Jennings at 70lbs, had to buy ALL new ammo combos. You'll find the right heads... keep at it. If you're grouping well with field points, it's likely not a tuning issue.

Once I found a good head, I'd sacrifice a few as practice heads.  I also shoot instinctive, nothing on the bow but a quiver.

[Purgatory_Predator_Calls]

Thanks everyone, looks like I've got some work to do.  Since Wal-Mart is the closest place within 65 miles of home that sells broadheads, looks like my options are limited.  I'll let everyone know if different heads shoot different. 

Brian,

Arrow length:  28.5" empty, 30.25" with broad head, 29.25" with field point
Fletching Length:  3-7/8" with a twist that turns the arrow counter clockwise, and as far as I can tell the blades of the
                          broad head don't have a twist.
Draw weight:  I'm not sure about the draw weight as I've turned it up as I've become more comfortable shooting it, but I'm
                    guessing it's between 65 and 70 pounds because when I got the bow it was set at 60 lbs.
Balance point:  With the broadhead on the arrow the balance point is between 12.5" and 13" from the tip, with the field   
                     point the balance point is right around 12" from the tip, and empty it's right around 14.5" from the tip.

So it's off to Wal-Mart to evaluate some new broadheads. 

Thanks everyone I'll keep you all updated.

Joey

[iahntr]

Joey, wished I had more time right now, I'll try to get back on later. I wouldn't open up a bunch of different broadheads right away, I know Wal Mart sells Thunderheads, and I've never had, or sold a bow that didn't shoot well  with Thunderheads. There are many other good broadheads, but your kinda limited at Wal Mart. If the next one you try doesn't help, I would look more at your rest, nock point, tiller, etc. With out being there it's kinda hard to see what the arrows are doin. When you shoot them now with broadheads on, are they typically going in one direction? Up, down, right, left? or just all over the place. I assume with that short of a bow you are shooting with a release. If you continue to fight it, look up paper tuning, and give that a try. You don't necessarily need perfect bullet holes, but  it might give you an idea of what your arrow is doing. Sorry gotta run, maybe you can update us tonight.  Scott

[bigben]

I have never had a problem with muzzys flying bad.  but I shoot a heavier arrow.  for a long time I shot 2219 with a 125 gr two blade new style fred bear broadheads.  killed a couple deer with em now and I do not think anything is tougher.  last year I went to a fat 2514 with a 125 gr muzzy.  in my limited experience try a heavier broadhead once.  it allways worked when I got some arrows that wanted to fly bad.  also have you paper tested with target points to make sure that your arrows are coming out of the bow straight??  JMO

with both the muzzys and the fred bear broadheads I had to watch that I only shot one arrow at each dot on a target butt or hay bale or else the fletching would get stripped.  back when I shot every day it was possible to stack em in there.  now I am lucky to get more then ten shots in a coke can.  I have not shot hardly at all.  after about 6 arrows I start getting to about a desert plate.  25 yds. 

[Lonehowl]

Joey, I shoot traditional so I'm probably way off, but I would check nock height and possibly brace height( dont know if you can adjust brace on a compound?) if youve been cranking on the limbs you may have affected brace.

By "tornado" I'm assuming they are "corkscrewing"? This is typical of incorrect brace and nock height in traditional archery.

I'm assuming youre shooting with a mechanical release. Bad finger release can cause this too.

Try messing with alighning your broadhead blades so they are in between your fletching(like a gunsight) while looking down your arrow longways. Some say this is an old wives tail but some swear it helps.

All asssuming your arrow spine is correct. A broadhead will weaken spine a bit compared to field points of same weight because of their longer length. Although not usually a problem with carbons and mechanical release.

Good luck. Bowhunting is awsome, but arriving at the point where everything is working well can be frustrating.

[HaMeR]

Just a quick thought here. I'm new to archery too. Did you reset the draw weight then go to the Muzzy's?? Maybe both limbs aren't torqued to the same setting.   That can de-tune your bow I believe.

[cb223]

Joey,
        I am not an expert but I do know a little. I have been told that any broad head will fly right if the broad head weight is right for the arrow spine and the bow is in tune.

Try paper tuning it. Take a large sheet of paper 2 or 3 feet square. Staple it to a frame. Standing just far enough away for a arrow to leave the bow. Shoot an arrow through it. The hole should be a circle with the three vains. If there is a rip in one direction the arrow is not leaving the bow straight and the broad heads make the arrow plane in who knows which direction. If you do get a rip adjust the rest accordingly. If I remember right, you need to move the rest in the same direction as the rip. If the tip is up and the veins are down move the rest down. If this checks out try again farther away. This will tell you if the arrow is flying straight.

One more quick easy check put the arrows in a v-block and spin them. The tip of the broad head should not run out. The truer the better.

I hope this makes sense. If not let me know and I will try again.

I'm sure if you google bow tuning you can find an article that explains it alot better than I did.

Chad

[KillerCaller!]

Don't get all in a tizz about the arrows not flying right.  :madd:If you are shooting 340's and your draw weight is at 65-70 lbs. you are fine.
An easy fix is to twist the nock a little at a time to get the perfect balance with arrow and head. If you are using a fall away it will work best. You should not have to re-sight your bow to hit where you aim with broadheads. The arrows need tweaking not your bow. Try all of your arrows and see which ones fly best with the heads you have. There may be one or two that perform better than the rest. Use a nock turning tool and make slight adjustments to the nock a little at a time. It may sound too good to be true but most of the time that is all it takes.

[ohiobob]

I always shot Traditional myself,,IF you shoot with Fingers,,try shooting "Indian Style" with 3 fingers under the Nock,,I dont know why,,but it worked with me when I got a new Bow a few years back  I shoot Snuffer Broadheads,and I had a STIFF Spine on my Arrows,,I always shot a heavier Spine then what was called for
The 2 years that I shot a Compound,,I shot the Thunderhead 125's,,and they flew great out of my Bow,,and flew Bad out of my Buddy's Bow  and we had the same set up,,did you make sure,that you turned each weight adjustment the SAME when you cranked it up ?
IF we had time,,I would send you a few of my Broadheads to try,,I can do that if you want,,now here is another thing to try since we have you confused by now  try this,if you haven't tried it already,,turn your Bow Weight DOWN a little at a time,,IF you get the arrows to fly right,and group good,,then I would say it is in the Spine of the arrow ? IF that works,,just shoot at the lower Poundage untill you can get some different Broadheads,,when you get new Broadheads,,try them at different Bow weights,,I know that you are probably shooting the same weight Broadhead and field Point,,but it WILL make a Difference,,I HOPE you get it figured out quick,,if you want to try some Different Broadheads,,let me know and I will send ya some until you get it figured out,,and if they work,,just send them BACK when you get your own,,I have the Thunderheads and the Snuffers
Good Luck
Bob

[Rich]

I absolutely HATE the way they cut the sight window so far past center on all of the new compound bows. It makes it nearly impossible for old fashioned hunters like me to set up one of these bows with a cushion plunger and flipper rest. Most archers these days don't seem to realize how loud those bows are when they release either. I think one reason they are so loud is because the arrows most guys shoot these days are so light that the bow thinks it is being dry fired.    After saying that, I need to tell you that the last ten years or so that I hunted with a bow, I shot only broadheads. The big old Rotharr "Snuffers" were my favorite.

[ohiobob]

, I shot only broadheads. The big old Rotharr "Snuffers" were my favorite.

I Shot/Shoot the Snuffers to Rich,,Those Broadheads turn a Marginal Hit into a "Walking Dead" Hit,,the Snuffer is easy as heck to sharpen too 
Bob

[Rich]

  "The Snuffer is easy as heck to sharpen too"
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Yep, all you need is a nice flat whet stone.  My whet stone is a "Bear" brand I think, and is older than a lot of guys who are posting on this board. 

[Purgatory_Predator_Calls]

Ok so after much frustration, research, and help from an up standing gentlemen Mr. THO himself, I'm once again confident and ready for season. 

As a couple of you mentioned it's come down to a "Spine stiffness" issue.  I tried a couple other fixed blade broad heads with no change in results.  I tried 85gr broad heads with a slight improvement, but not even close to satisfactory.

So loooooong story short, bought some 100gr Eastman mechanical broad heads, and by god if the didn't shoot like a dream for obvious reasons.  I tried the scorpion mechanicals but they didn't shoot as good as the eastmans.  The blades opened on every impact (25-30 shots).  From 20-30-40 yard ranges. 

I realize that I took the easy way out by going with mechanicals but had to do something since season was so close.  When season's over I plan on properly tuning my bow taking into consideration ALL variables.  This experience has opened my eyes a lot.   Thanks for all your help fellers, hopefully soon I'll have some pics to show you all of my success.

Joey

[Roundman]

Joey
Don't think you took the easy way out. Mechanical heads have come a long way. I have used Rocket Heads for years but this year I did a little test of some fixed and mechanical heads. The Muzzy heads did not shoot well for me either, the Rocket Heads went straight but the blades wanted to bend a little to easy. I picked up a package of Nap Spitfires and had great results. You can install practice blades and see what the flight of the arrow will be without shooting your hunting blades.

A local shop done a test of their own and put 10 heads of different makes through two pieces of wood spaced apart. The Rage and the Spitfire out performed the rest. I wanted to test the Rage heads out but was satisfied with the Spitfires.

Just my .02 cents worth

[HaMeR]

Cool Deal!! Can't wait to see the pics for sure!!

[DirtyDog]

Awsome news Yoey.....con't wait to see some pics.