Howling the Hell out of them

[KillerCaller!]

The other night after watching Chuck Liddell get beat up, I decided to stop off and do some howling around town. It was 1:45 a.m. before I arrived at my location. It is a place I can't hunt but figured it held coyotes and felt like "calling" them. It's a pretty good sized chunk of farmland, for here, and it's out in the boonies.
Anyway, I pulled to the side of the road and howled 4 or 5 times within' a few minute span and sat quiet for a few more. I howled 3 or 4 more times waited and then hopped in the car. I went around to the southern edge of the property, less then a 1/2 mile away and got out and went around to the back of the car. Resting comfortably I howled 4 or 5 times pretty deeply with a Power Howler and waited. For good measure and a change of pace I howled a few times on my Killer Call. A minute later I started some whines barks and distress on the Killer Call. I followed that quickly with some fawnish distress and some challenge howls.
Satisfied that nothing would come in or answer I hopped in the batmobile and headed down the road. I had plans on hitting a secluded park that I thought held some coyotes that I might dupe. I had driven about a hundred yards down the road when I spotted something spinning away from the car and start running on the shoulder. A coyote, a young one. It started to pass in front of me and I had the sudden urge to hit the gas and chase it. The youngin' made it safely into a ditch and out into one of the fields before I had time to "see what would happen" if I rolled over it. That coyote heard 15 or more howls and was coming to see what was up. How do I know? I just do.
I drove another hundred yards, turned around and went back to where the coyote had run off and out into the field. I jumped out and this time I used some really high pitched howls, a couple lone howls and then my interpretation of an "anyone that's out there invitation howl." After the 10th or so howl I had a group of them light up. They were in a patch of woods in the middle of a field opposite of the one that the the road rage coyote had escaped into. They yip-howled for about 45 seconds and then shut up.
I had to have howled 25 times in the general direction of those coyotes. I have had occasions where it took only 1-2 howls to get them going but many more where it takes A LOT to get them interested enough to talk back. Mainly they show up sooner and never howl. Locating, for me, is mainly done by sign because of their tight lips. Has anyone else howled near constant and had them show up or howl back? My area is whacked out like that.

[FinsnFur]

Not quite like that, but I sure liked the story.
I have had them run along side the truck before. Funnier then hell to watch.

[THO Game Calls]

Never chased a coyote down the road, but had some fun with a moose on the highway once.  They are pretty fast for a big old dumb animal,


Anyway, I was just sitting here pondering on the effects of aggressive howling on subordinate and transient coyotes. 

I wonder if the coyotes you howled up were all young of the year and subordinate animals.   With all that howling you might have sounded like the Crips or the Bloods of the coyote world and they didn't want to take a butt whooping.  Maybe the yip howls were their way of saying "hey mom and dad, get over here we got trouble."

The young one, well, there is always one that has more courage than sense,   

I don't know where you live, but around here, they are more apt to come investigate a howl than answer it.  Now 150 miles north, in the mountains, they answer pretty regularly.   Weird.

Al

[Greenside]

With all the howling you were doing, I'm guessing they had a hard time getting a word in edge wise! 

[BigB]

Where I hunt, I have had more coyotes show up silently after I howl, than come to the stand after they howl.  Probably 90% have shown up silently.  For some reason, they don't want to come and check me out after they howl. 

I don't have too much of a difficulty getting them to vocalize though.  They usually vocalize after 2-3 of my howls.  If I howl more than 5 times without an answer, I just figure nobody is home and go to another spot.

Brian

[KillerCaller!]

Greenside, it was a pretty one sided conversation 'til the end. They were more than likely telling me to shut up.
BigB, the point you make about howling a few times and then moving because you figured nothing was there is part of the reason I posted what I did. If I had howled 5 or 6 times in a 20 minute span and then left I would not have known for sure that they were there. Now, because of my long winded calling I do know that they are there. I have seen and heard their presence. I may ask for permission to hunt the property now. Both sides of the road seem to be holding them so I have a starting point. It doesn't work all the time, every time. I wish it did. But, it has worked enough for me that when I am out calling and not hunting I will give it a try. Frustration or tiredness usually brings out the Cacaphony of Calls. These coyotes are tight lipped and eggshell walkers, it takes a bit to get them to open up.

[Greenside]

KC

Care to speculate a little on what you think the coyote were doing in the time frame before the group yip howl? What was the ultimate trigger?

I can think of a scenario that might explain, but would like to hear yours.

[KillerCaller!]

I could speculate about what they were doing but it would be just that, speculation. I do know what happens when they are within' eyesight but out of sight is anybody's guess. Having said that to cover my ass, here are a couple of ways it could have played out.
They could have been coming to the call from pretty far off and decided to yip howl when they got within 500 yards (guesstimate) to tell me off. They could have been calling to their pal that I tore away. Many things could have triggered it and if I knew what it was I could have roused them much sooner and with much less effort.
Greenside, I would most definitely appreciate hearing your scenario.

[canine]

Comfort Zone


JD

[KillerCaller!]

Nice one, canine! But that is not a scenario, that's a place. Them shouting from the den door doesn't account for their doings before. They were out and about and gathered back at base camp and trash talked to let me know they were home and defending? Intriguing.

[keekee]

What was the ultimate trigger?

Sounds like that they moved to a safety zone or comfort zone before declaring there presents in the area. The group yip howl was to let you know that the territory was occupied by another group of coyotes. And you by doing all the howling at them got them to yip howl to stake a claim in response to your howling.

Nice one, canine! But that is not a scenario, that's a place. Them shouting from the den door doesn't account for their doings before

The comfort or safety zone doesn't mean they were at the den. Most at this time have moved away from the dens. A safety zone or comfort zone is just a place the coyotes feel extra safe or comfortable inside there core area of there territory. Coyotes relocate allot of the time before giving a vocal response to howling. That's why I always wait 15 - 20 min after howling at night to locate before I move on to the next spot.



Brent

[THO Game Calls]

KeeKee -

What do you think the size of the typical family group is right now?  5 to 7 Coyotes?   

When they move to a safe zone within their core area, I wonder, are they are all hunting in different directions within their core area, and if so, how do they communicate to each other to get everyone to move to that safe zone if they are not howling?  Do you think it is a learned response to perceived danger that makes them go "group" back up somewhere? 

Also, what do you think the size of the typical safe area would be?  And what kind of terrain would it be located in?  Up high when that is available, or dense forest or what?  On a topo or areal map, what would a guy look for as a starting point for a safe area?

Here in my area, most dens, and the places I would call safe areas are usually either up high with a steep drop off to one side, usually the east, and the wind at their back with good visibility all around yet still some cover.   

When I am trying to find new areas to hunt, I often look for those ridges or mountains that have a steep slope to the east or south east with deciduous forest at the top.  I rarely have found them in the spruces and hemlocks where the ground cover can be very sparse and the soil sandy and covered in pine needles.  It's even better if there is a spring fed stream to the south close by, especially if it is medium sized and wanders for a good while through thick forest. 



Al

[vvarmitr]

That's why I always wait 15 - 20 min after howling at night to locate before I move on to the next spot.

AH HA! That's my problem, I'm not setting at a spot long enough.

[KillerCaller!]

Kee Kee, I am sure that most have vacated the dens by now but they still may feel safest in the general vicinity of the den. There was not much howling going on by them it was mainly yipping, so I couldn't figure out if there were any adults involved. No deep howls. The safety zone is a viable theory but may not always be the case. I am sure they feel safe in the entire territory, otherwise it would not be their territory. Big B says he gets them to vocalize quite a bit. Are his coyotes ALWAYS in a comfort zone? Probably not, depending on when he is howling.
THO, I have heard them in "hunting mode" a bit using very short howls to let one another know their location. This is a few and far between phenom.
Kee, not being a vocalization or behavioral expert I will take your and Canines theory and accept it as viable. LOL! Thanks for the input.

[keekee]

Al,

Its hard to say what size the groups are now. I have not been out yet this year but I would think the groups have split up or right on the verge of dispersing here at this time. Allot of that seems to have to do with what time the pups are born.

The core area and safety zones to me seem to be to different areas. A core area is more defined in the denning season. The safety zone (to me) just seems to be a small area that the coyotes seem to feel safe inside there territory. And usually seems to be small. The comfort part seems to relate to different things. A high point, thick cover, certain areas inside there territory. This I have found just by going into areas that I have located coyotes from in the past, and going in and scouting a few days after. And what I have read from studies and talking with different people.

I dint think they hunt so much inside there core area but it being a place they feel safe. A strange coyote or strange coyotes inside there territory may trigger a regroup. And that may take place inside there safety zone. Like a trigger they just know were to go in a case like this.

I'm not big on maps for finding key places. I like ,maps to locate new areas then do some locating. Then from then on it is pure shoe leather, to get what I need to hunt that spot.

Kee Kee, I am sure that most have vacated the dens by now but they still may feel safest in the general vicinity of the den. There was not much howling going on by them it was mainly yipping, so I couldn't figure out if there were any adults involved. No deep howls

I disagree on this point. Once the pups get out of then den here they seem to move them to a area were there is more of what they need at this time, be it water, cover, fields to train the pups to hunt, different things. The den is of no use to them by then. And we are close if not in the dispersal at this time of year. There not so much pups no more and have been taught allot of what they need to survive. And young innocence is not tolerated like it has been in the past. They may have moved on, and there toleration of the litter is not the same at this time of year as in the spring as pups. When the pups first get vocal here the adults will let them yip for sometime then with a few short barks they shut them up on a dime! They don't give off that puppy yip sound now like they did a month ago. They have moved from pups to YOY coyotes. Not all adult coyotes have deep howls.

The safety zone is a viable theory but may not always be the case. I am sure they feel safe in the entire territory, otherwise it would not be their territory. Big B says he gets them to vocalize quite a bit. Are his coyotes ALWAYS in a comfort zone? Probably not, depending on when he is howling.

Your right, it may not be the case. I'm sure they don't do this every time. Allot of things have impressions on why and when they howl. But I do no its the case in allot of the time. If they yip howled they were letting you know that there was another group in that area. But its there territory because it has good food, water and cover. And depending on the populations there could be allot of other reasons why they took up this territory. Safety being just one of them. Coyotes set up territory's inside high human traffic areas all the time.

My coyotes here are pretty vocal as well even during the day and so are JD's. But three years ago jerking a howl out of one of them during the day was tough. Now its not so tough. I think allot of it has to do with populations, territory's, food, and many other things. One being were you are when you howl inside there territory.

I am curious about what you have heard KillerCaller from them vocally when they are hunting. This is one thing I have never heard or seen. I am very interested in what you know here or have seen or heard?

Kee, not being a vocalization or behavioral expert I will take your and Canines theory and accept it as viable. LOL! Thanks for the input.

Nether am I by no means! I have spent allot of time reading studies, and talking and hunting with my mentors like Rich Higgins, talking with different people on the phone, enet and any other way I can learn about them. But in no way shape or form am I a expert! If I came off that way I apologize for sure! I am trying all the time to learn all I can!



Greenside! What about your input?


Brent

[THO Game Calls]

I think a lot of this depends on the areas you hunt, and - I'm going to say it -  the genetic make up of the coyotes in that area.

One of the big issues I have with all the studies that have been done in the past is that most are on western coyotes and many are on coyotes that live in areas where there is little if any human traffic or intrusion.  While this may be useful information to the scientist, and show him or her how coyotes behave in a natural habitat that is unmolested by man, it has little if any bearing on coyotes that live in close proximity to people, and who may in fact have wolf DNA in them.  (more than the standard "dogs all evolved from wolves so all dogs have wolf DNA argument).

Coyotes where I live seem to confine themselves to areas that have little human traffic at the particular time of day they use that area.   In other words, you may find tracks and scat on the bike trails in the woods, but the coyotes will not use those trails when there is the possibility of encountering humans on them.  So they get used at night.    I have come to this conclusion from asking many cyclist and cross country skiers if they have seen coyotes on the trails they ride.  I always get the same response.  Tracks, but no animals.  Conversely, I think coyotes tend to go up high and into very dense cover during the day as there is less chance of human encounters.   Again, many of our mountains have trails that lead to the peaks and are heavily used, but hikers rarely report coyote sightings.  The coyotes are in dense cover away from the main trails.

These areas up high and in dense cover seem to serve multiple uses.   First, many of them are den sites in the late winter and early spring, and I believe then become safe areas in the late spring and summer months.   There simply are not enough places where they can escape human activity for them to have multiple safe sites. 

When it comes to howling or the lack of it, I think it has to do with the fact that coyotes here do not have to scrape and scrounge for food.  Food is abundant, and I think one of their least worries.  Water also seems to be less of a concern with coyotes here than out west.   With the number of aquifers in the mountains, water is everywhere, even in times when we have no rain.  On the other hand, floods and heavy rains for several weeks do have an impact on their travel and bedding areas, as well as their hunting. 

I believe that coyotes here have very small core areas, and that these areas may serve also as safe areas withing their territory.  I also think that they travel less distances here when hunting because they don't have to.   I think this is one of the key reasons we hear so few of them howl even at night.   There are so few coyotes that the need to defend territories is less of a concern and therefore they may tolerate a transient coyote passing through as long as he or she does not come inside their core area.   They will investigate first unless the core or safe areas are breached, and that rarely happens because the population densities are so low. 

But all that may be changing, for as Browning204 noted in a thread earlier this week, he has heard some howling at night.   Further, trapping reports indicate the numbers of coyotes trapped has doubled almost every year for the last 5 or 6 years, with fewer trappers running trap lines.  So the population may be expanding.  If that is the case, then I would expect to start hearing more howling at night and more aggressive responses to transient or intruding coyotes.

I asked the question about family group size because I have witnessed on several occasions, packs of coyotes in December, January, February and March.  By packs I mean groups of 5 or more coyotes.  These are usually confined to certain areas within the state, but you can almost always bet on seeing a pack in some places where you will see singles and maybe doubles in others.  The packs are usually confined to those areas that are way off the beaten track, up high, and with little or no human activity to speak of.   I believe these animals to have Gray Wolf DNA in them.   They are larger, darker, and behave unlike the single coyotes we see nearer more urban areas.  These animals work together to attack deer yards in the winter, and can often be seen trailing one another along the edges of meadows at first light.  They do not use the snow mobile or cross country trails like our more southern coyotes do, and in early March, if the days are warm and the nights cold, causing the snow to crust over, they can move very effectively.   They seldom howl though.  I have seen and heard them communicate through barks and growls, but I cannot ever remember hearing or seeing them howl. 

I think that because of the low population densities of the eastern coyote, if we expect them to behave like their western cousins, we are in for long fruitless days.   A coyote may be a coyote no matter where he lives, but where he lives determines to a large extent how he behaves. 

Al
   

[canine]

Ha Ha Ha...Two words got it started...LOL...I think ...for what it's worth, coyote populations have alot to do with how vocal they become. Territorial bounderies, I believe reflect on if they will vocally respond to howls. Meaning, if at the time you howl,they are close to bounderies during normal season they'll move to a comfort zone to respond vocally. I have seen them during breeding season come from a long ways off vocal the whole time to run you out of there area. Time of year has alot to do with how vocal they are. Moon phases have alot to do with how vocal they are.  All my theories are based from experiences I have had with these moody little bastids. And yes...I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night

Killercaller, I have no clue how they can hear a howl and all end up in the same basic area to group yip howl back at ya. I have though witnessed from my tree stand one january evening, 5 coyotes trot out of the woods 75 yards from me out into an open pasture field that was probably 40 acres big if not bigger. What i seen blew me away, 3 of the coyotes trotted off in 3 different directions forming a semi circle around the breeding pair and literally posted gaurd while the breeders knotted up. The whole time they were doggy stylin it, those other 3 poor bastids had to look out for danger while the other 2 were occupied. Kinda like back in high school.....wait a minute....nevermind...I have watched them hunt in pairs down fence rows and water ways. Working together in a fashion that shows there intellegence.

gotta run dinner time now




I'll add more when phone quits ringing


JD

[wv_yoter]

Nice topic Killer, there are alot of good response's.  I can't believe Chuck lost either.

[FinsnFur]

JD's phone musta not quit ringing 

[KillerCaller!]

I am curious about what you have heard KillerCaller from them vocally when they are hunting. This is one thing I have never heard or seen. I am very interested in what you know here or have seen or heard?

Okay, First off, I can only surmise that they were hunting at the time. A few years back we had a pack of somewhat vocal coyotes running the fields out back. They would yip howl and vocalize in other ways about once every 2 weeks, yeah real vocal. Well on a couple of occasions I heard them howling back and forth. One would let out a very short howl and then successively others would answer with the same short howl one after the other from different points on opposite sides of the tree line. It was May and it was more than likely a family hunt. I had a couple come in and feed on a fawn carcass that was down in the swamp behind the house. I tried veeeeery hard to get the sounds recorded but only succeeded in getting a couple different ones on camera. Like I said, few and far between phenom. I really wish they were much more vocal around here, I would love to hear them every night. Sweet music!
I am not a believer in being able to distinguish male from female when they are howling but if I hear a nice throaty deep howl I am going to go out on a limb and guess it's not a YOY.
Kee Kee, I know you are not an "expert" by definition. You know coyotes and those in the know have nothing but good thing to say about you soooo.... you are an expert by default. And your little dog JD too!
Nice story Dog porn story.  :shck: Don't tell me you shot them in the act!