How much calling on a stand???

[Frogman]

       After reading lots of posts including the Calling Sequence thread above, watching several videos, and reading Predator Xtream magazine articles I am not sure if I should call continuously on a stand or call for a few seconds then pause for a few minutes.  I guess everyone has their own way of calling so maybe there is no one best answer. 
       On a stand earlier this year I heard what sounded like a bird, rabbit or, other small animal let out a terrifiying scream up on the hill above us just as we were getting set up and before we had started calling.  There were no further sounds for several minutes until my buddy did a lonesome howl.  Coyotes immediatly responded close by lower down the hill but we could not see them due to a heavy fog that had come in.  On the other hand I have shot and wounded rabbits that pretty much squalled continuously as the dogs chased them until they were dispatched.
        My question to you experienced hunters is:  Is your calling sequence pretty much continuous, or do you call for a few seconds then pause for few minutes??  How long do you pause? 

Jim         

[FinsnFur]

I pause personally.  ...for about two minutes.

I've always had the belief that the folks that let the callers blare non stop are guys hunting the wide open prairies, or country sides. Not that there's any credibility to that, it's just my belief.
I like to call for 30 to 45 seconds and then pause for 2 minutes or so. I'm hunting pretty dense areas in SouthWestern Wisconsin. My opinion is that this keeps the coyotes interest without being too blatantly obvious, plus it gives me a chance to listen for foot steps. 

[Troy Walter]

Frogman
That depends on what you are calling with if you are using a foxpro or some other type of E-call I let that play continuous.But if you are using hand calls you better pause or you will pass out before the coyote comes,just messing with you.When I use hand calls I call for a minute or two then pause about there or four minutes then call for a minute or two and so on.But you need to start out in low volume and increase as you call.And add feeling to your call.

[hammeryotes]

iI personally have paused for a minute or two in the past, and have had what I consider to be good success for a first year coyote caller(last year).  But when I went with "Jimmie in KY" he called a coyote in for me and was hitting the call real regular.  In fact I was timing his sequence and it was call for 5-7 seconds and stop for 10-17 seconds. This went on for about five minutes until the yote  came running in. A large Hawk showed up about one minute into the sequence, and would lightly screech when jimmy would pause.  I questioned Jimmy later on his calling cadence.  If I remember correctly, he said that he was calling more continuously than normal because he thought it looked like a good spot for a cat to be.  Anyhow it worked perfectly; in fact the only time the coyote stopped coming was when Jimmy stopped calling.  I first spotted the yote 100+ yards across the hardwood draw.  It was a real kick to be able to watch the yote while someone else(who did'nt know the yote was there)did all the calling.  A cool learning experience.  I might add that the reason jimmy had chose this spot to call was because of some ground sign he had found.  Some sort of sign post or something.

[coyotehunter_1]

For coyotes, I like to call continuously with an e/caller but take short breaks using hand calls.  I get shakey blowing a hand call for very long periods.   
Using an e/caller (distress sounds) in conjuntion with a crow or hawk call has worked on occasion too.






Posted by: hammeryotes:

I might add that the reason jimmy had chose this spot to call was because of some ground sign he had found. Some sort of sign post or something . 

That sign look something like this one ? 


Seriously,  Jimmie is one smart cookie when it comes to finding those LBL coyotes. I think he has almost every one of them named.   

Please excuse my off topic section of this post...  Knowing Jimmie, I  just couldn't help myself. 

[hammeryotes]

THAT'S IT.   :shck: That is exactly what Jimmie showed me right before he called that yote in. whew.. Now i don't feel like such an uneducated greenhorn.

[possumal]

Frogman: If you get a thousand responses to this question, they will all vary a lot.  Lots of guys say they can call in more coyotes with hand calls than ecalers, and I don't doubt that if they play the ecaller continuously.  In my opinion, lots of hunters call too loud and too much with ecallers which may very well explain why some people have better success with hand calls.  There are very few animals who can scream at the top of their lungs for 20 minutes non stop.  One well known coyote hunter says he leaves the ecaller on continuously to keep the coyote's attention on the sound and away from him.  I have watched enough of them respond from long distances, and the windier it is, the more they stop to reevaluate the location.  When a coyote hears a sound from 1,500 yds or more away, he does not know exactly where that sound is coming from.  The closer he gets, the smaller the sound cone gets, and he will end up zeroing in on it exactly.  Calmer days allow him to target it better.  I have read where some guys think they are stopping to watch for movement, etc., but I doubt that if they are on the other side of a hill when responding. They are simply zeroing in on that sound.  In my opinion, they do not lose their attention on the sound unless something interferes like a big fat rabbit or cat jumping up right in front of them while they are on their way in.  It is important to point out that all of these guys call in and kill coyotes, so it is hard for the new hunter to evaluate which is best.  I vote for the most natural scenario you can lay out for Mr. Coyote, and periods of silence are what I believe in.  You want the coyote to have to look for the source.  Like Brent Saxton says, he wants to make them pay for getting downwind of the sound.  You'll have to work out what works best for you, but I believe that too much calling and too much volume will scare away about as many as it will call in.  A fairly large number of the coyotes who respond are never seen in areas where they have lots of sneaky approach lanes to use.

[THO Game Calls]

If you blow a hand call on stand for 15 minutes continuously, the following things will probably happen.

1)  You will die of a heart attack

2) if you dont die of a heart attack, you will have a stroke

3)  if you dont die of a heart attack or have a stroke, you will be so out of breath that you wont be able to control your breathing to make a good shot when the coyote appears

and the absolutely worst thing that will happen is

4) you will have your hands on something other than your gun when the coyote shows up.

Why do guys who blow hand calls kill more coyotes, or say they do, than guys who use e callers

1)  they want to be able to justify being too cheap to buy an e caller

2) because if they did buy a 700 dollar e caller the wife would kill them and they don't want to looked whipped

3) because they have listened to the same 30 second  loop of dying rabbit so many times they are afraid that once more will drive them stark raving mad

and the biggest reason guys who blow hand calls say they kill more coyotes than guys who use e callers is

4) they are looking for the coyote instead of trying to read the card or dial or cheat sheet to decide on which sound to play next when they should be looking for the coyote.


While how long you call, how loud you call both play a part, nothing will ever take the place of how long you can sit still and focus on where you think the coyote is going to show up at. 


When I go into the woods, I don't want anything to know I am there until I am ready to announce my presence.

Once I let them know I am there, it is time to watch.  And watch some more.  If I blow the call after the first sequence, I do it with my eyes on where I think the coyote is going to come from and I try hard to watch as I call.

But it is very hard to do two things at once.  This is why coyote hunters have good luck when they have a partner, one a caller and a shooter.  One watches.  One calls.   Most of the time, just like in the story above, the watcher will see the coyote first.  Not only because we set up that way, but because his focus is on watching. 

A remote E caller should be treated, at least in my opinion, just like you would a partner calling.  It has it's job and you have yours.  If you want pauses in your calling routine from an e caller, program it that way.  Once you start your caller though, put the remote down and watch for the coyotes. 

I think this is the biggest problem new guys have.  They lose confidence in the sound they are playing if nothing shows up in 30 seconds, and while they are changing the remote, the coyote sees them.   

The best way, I think, to determine what works best in your area, is to flip flop between calling styles and keep a record of what results you get.

But the best advice I could give you would be....

Don't expect to CALL a coyote on every stand, but DO expect to SEE a coyote on every stand.  There is a huge differene, and when you understand it, your kill rate will go way up.

Al



edited to say that this applies to day time hunting.  I do not hunt at night so have no experience in that.

[THO Game Calls]

One last little tidbit

Never confuse a coyotes ability to see with his abillity to pick up movement.  They dont see that well, but they can pick up movement VERY well.  Keep that in mind and it will help you.

Al

[possumal]

A lot of good points, THO Al.  That is why I make a lot of sequences to use on my FX-5. One click and then watch, with just as realistic a scenario as I can make.  If the coyotes show up, and me or my hunting partner shoots one, one push on my preset P4 gives me the coyote death cry, and the game is still on.  With the coyotes looking in the direction of where the ecaller is, the only movement they are going to see is the JIB shaking.  Learning to use good sound editing software gives you a huge advantage in making good sound sequences or individual sounds.  Being able to sit still as a rock, as Gerry Blair calls it, and hunt with your eyes doing the only moving helps a bunch.  Another good point about using both ecallers and hand calls is when you announce the presence of coyotes with a couple of howls, followed up a few minutes later by howls from the ecaller perhaps 75 to 100 yds away, gives the impression that those coyotes they heard howling have moved further into their territory, and then comes the distress sounds. They don't like that invasion of their territory, and that triggers a lot of responses.

[THO Game Calls]

Another good point about using both ecallers and hand calls is when you announce the presence of coyotes with a couple of howls, followed up a few minutes later by howls from the ecaller perhaps 75 to 100 yds away, gives the impression that those coyotes they heard howling have moved further into their territory

If this is working for you, great, but I don't think it works the way you think it does, and I have to wonder if in some areas it might be counter productive.

As Coyote Hunters we often make three huge mistakes, again, at least in my opinion.

First, we don't understand how acute the coyotes senses are.

Second, we equate the coyotes senses with those of a human.

I believe, and I believe Rich Higgins has written about studies that bear this out, that coyotes can identify each other by their howls.  In other words, one coyotes voice sounds different to a coyote than another coyotes voice.

If this is true, then calling with one howler, and then switching to a howl from an e caller, will make it sound to the coyotes listening like there is more than one coyote in it's territory.  Not that the original coyote they heard has advanced deeper into the territory.

We often hear coyote hunters say they use two howlers, or each hunting partner blows a howler to make it sound like more than one coyote (I think Kee and Canine do this sometimes when calling together)

Sounding like more than one coyote in a territory may indeed invoke a territorial response ala the Bill Martz theory on calling coyotes, but I have to wonder what it does to the subordinate coyotes in the vicinity.

If you want to shoot coyotes, grab a call and a gun and go sit somewhere and have at it.  But if you want to consistently kill coyotes, it is sometimes best to try different techniques and keep records of the response you get and try hard to figure out why things happened the way they did.  And this includes information about age class of the coyote you called in using the technique you used.  You might find that with one technique you are calling younger subordinate coyotes and with another, you are getting the older, more dominant coyotes.

The third mistake we make as coyote hunters it to believe everything we read on Internet boards.   Every area is different.  What works for one guy may not work for another, and interpetations of why things work are sometimes tainted by the need to push a product or lack the disclaimer that, as I said above, every area is different.  Take everything you read with a grain of salt.  Nothing can take the place of time in the woods.  Nothing.  And when a guy tells you, do this, it works, without a disclaimer that it works in HIS area, just file it and move on.  There is nothing set in stone in this.  Even my belief that you must sit still and look.  I know of two coyote hunters who do very well IN THEIR AREAS stalking coyotes in the winter and taking long range shots on them.  They are very good at what they do IN THEIR AREA. 

I wrote above that you should not expect to call a coyote on every stand, but that you should expect to see a coyote on every stand.  The difference is that when you are hunting, if you expect to call a coyote every time, you are looking for a coyote to show up.  If you expect to see a coyote on every stand, you are looking for that quick movement, that flash of fur, the ear, the white of the throat, the horizontal line of the back, and you are listening for the way the animals around your respond.  Your senses are in tune with the woods as much as we as humans can be.  It is then that you will begin to notice little things and you will start to begin to understand the coyotes in your area.  If you spend enough time hunting them, they will teach you almost everything you need to know to kill them.  How well you pay attention to what YOUR coyotes are teaching you, will determine to a great extent, how well you are at putting fur on the ground in your area.

Al

[coyotehunter_1]

Posted b: THO Game Calls

As Coyote Hunters we often make three huge mistakes, again, at least in my opinion.

First, we don't understand how acute the coyotes senses are.

Second, we equate the coyotes senses with those of a human.

The third mistake we make as coyote hunters it to believe everything we read on Internet boards.

Amen, brother, amen !!! 

[CCP]

I guess everyone has their own way of calling so maybe there is no one best answer.

Very true statement!

There are so many factors terrain, pressure,time of year,and I could go on and on. I have killed coyotes with the caller running continuously,stop and start, low and high, with there nose in the speaker at full blast or with a lip squeak at 75 yards . Setup is the most important and sound second or third.  Where the sound gets important is closing that last 75 or a hundred yards on a smart coyote. The coyotes that just come running in doesn't matter they are going to come in no matter.

I notice sometimes when looking at my or others videos that while trying to get the footage we get caught up and don't notice the caller running continuously in the back ground. I will be barking and yelping back and fourth with the coyote and don't even notice the caller in the back ground till its over.

Second, we equate the coyotes senses with those of a human.

That is probably the biggest problem new guys and these internet expert coyote hunters have.

Coyotes don't think like we do they react. It wold be hard for me to believe a coyote thinks "that rabbit sure is loud" or "that rabbit is hollering to long". How they react to a call at 9:00am my be different than at 10:00am.

I guess I did all this rambling to say try it both ways in your area and see which way works consistently because you will call some coyotes either way.

[possumal]

I don't have a single doubt that coyotes can identify the individual howls of their family group, as most animals can identify such sounds. Seals are a good example, as they'd never identify their young without the ability to know their unique sounds and smell. It has been noted by several people that what works in one area may not work in another area, or at least not as well.  I keep my own personal howls on my ecaller as well as other howls.  When other coyotes think a group of coyotes has moved into their territory, I doubt that they take the time to figure out the individual howls, but they do take it as an invasion of their territory, or at least they do in my neck of the woods.  I have read in different posts that some fellows don't think coyotes pack up, but here again, they sure do in old Kentucky.  I called in a pack of 13 one time, 11 another, and 9 another.  If those are family groups, they sure have a big family. I have written before that the methods of the coyotes have changed tremendously in this area over the years, and they are taking down big calves and other livestock now. I think that explains why they are bigger now in this area. My techniques might not be effective in big forest country or you may not be able to see if they work there.  THO Al makes a valid point that nothing can take the place of time out hunting and that the coyotes will teach you more than any written articles if you let them.

[THO Game Calls]

Next time I head up to the big deer yard over in......never mind about that......anyway, next time, I will take my kids SLR cameral with a long lense.  7, 8, 9 or more coyotes in a group is the norm.  One right after another.   From snow fly till snow melt, large groups are the norm.  The lone coyote is the one you call in the middle of the day in deep timber around here.  Early morning and late evening they are either taking a toll on the deer or the turkeys. 

Putting your own howls on your caller is a good idea, and if you do it that way, I agree it might work.  Sometimes we need to point out the small things because it's always the little things that trip you up. 

Al

[Jimmie in Ky]

Calling sequences are not near as important as where you do the calling. If they don't hear it they can't show up. And you may even think you have them located , but terrain features get in your way.

What Hammer describes in his post is the dificulty the animal was having with locating the sound in that area. I was just over the crest of the ridge from the  animal. I have watched them do the same thing many times. It has taken me as much as two minutes to get them into shooting range from the time they are spotted. If I can see them I switch to lip squeaks to finish the deal. I have seen a lot of diferent response to th change in sounds as well. Some it really fires them up and others keep coming slow and checking each step.

My calling sequences have changed much over the years. I vary my calling a lot depending on winds and terrain features as well as the possibilty of calling another species. It may run from what Hammer described to as slow as once evry two minutes or so. Try to put feeling into your sound as much as possible. You would be surprised how much your calling will change with regular practice. No matter what your confidence level in your calling is at the time keep on believing that coyote is going to show up at each stand. Be alert to th things going on out there. That squirrel may not be barking at your calling but be barking at an aproaching predator of some kind.

The most important thing I can tell you is to learn to read the signs they leave. Learn where the sign is most likely to be and it's age. Tracking conditions here right now are giving me some real problems but I am learning to adapt. You have to learn to roll with the punches so to speak. There is a constant learning process withthis sport, that is what makes it such a challenge. Jimmie

[Frogman]

Wow!!  Great responses.  Thanks to all who have responded!!

Jim

[songdog]

                    Great responses guys..   There is nothing more true than what you guys have said.. Everywhere, even if your right down the road from where you killed one, is different. Every setup, every calling situation, and every coyote is different. If everyone would read all of these posts and take them in to consideration, then we would have a bunch more succesful coyote hunters...

[onecoyote]

Frogman, I've tried all kinds of ways to call predators over the years, most ways work in one manner or another. When I used only had calls all the time, I'd call for 20/30 seconds then wait a minute or two.......it worked.

When I competed on competition hunts a long time ago I used 8 tracks at first then went to high tech cassettes and left them on all the time........it worked.
For the most part I never messed with the sound, I put it on medium and left it there.......It worked.

Personally, I think to many callers put to much into it when it's not necessary. My formula is easy.....keep it simple, make as many stands in a day or night as you can and don't wast time. Using that formula in the right area can get you a bunch of animals.........Oh well, it's all free advice, take it all for what it's worth.

[canine]

I agree with ya onecoyote. A typical day of calling for Brent and I is, start at sun up and quit at sundown. Non-stop, we snack in the truck between stands, waste no time getting in and out from stands and have no set way in how we call. It's all gut feeling and size of what were calling, landwise, dictates how much time we spend there. Run and gun 

JD