Byron South seminar

[Jimmie in Ky]

Goerge, if that is the thread I am thinking of , you were working up an argument over hunting tactics, not ethics. Big diference. Because of that argument of yours I now understand that reading and seeing are two diferent things. Not everything can be explained so all can understand them. If they can see something in a video they can relate too it helps.

I don't see what I do much diferent from what any western hunter does. I am able to relate what I see to my hunting just as they do. Coyote's have habits just like any other creature. They still relate to terrain features here as well as there. I do however have to deal with the human population that is everywhere we look and how the coyote moves around it. And often enough I have to be able to change and adapt just as the coyote does.

You have to learn to put together all the clues they leave. It's not rocket science or magic. You have to put in the work to learn how to do it. You have to learn how they work in your area. All anyone can do is give you guidelines to go by. I myself am learning all the time. Things beyond my control make changes and I have to learn how to deal with them. It may be a series of new houses or a change in hunting pressure to an area, I have to learn how those changes affect the animals I am after at the time. It's a constant learning proccess for anyone who takes up the sport . Jimmie

[CritterBuster]

Never really been a bs fan but I try to keep peace where I go anymore.  I was at his talk Sunday and he did a good job.  Pretty straight forward approach... don't remember hearing the east TX comment...but ya tend not hear some things after 30 + years of playing the drums.   I like his one video and I give him credit for making a living at being in the coyote business.  Do I think he is a good person....not too sure about that..... As far as filming in PA....good luck its not easy  .......

[browning204]

Byron explained that he is from East Texas which has terrain and plant cover very similar to areas East of the Mississippi.  His video "Hunting in the Thick Stuff" was shot in this part of Texas.  Not as many coyotes as we might imagine.

BS. There have been coyotes in east Texas since the beginning of time. There have not been coyotes  east of the Mississippi until recent years. Also East Texas don't look like nothing compared to the East USA. How many Mountains are in East Texas???

Don't believe me ask a real Biologist that studies coyotes and ask are there more coyotes in east Texas or East of the Mississippi.

Byron took the opportunity to cash in on the new Eastern hunter. In the video hunting the thick stuff he continually said HERE IN THE EAST trying to give the impression he was in the EAST yeah east Texas. It would be like me being here in North East Alabama and keep saying "Here in the North east Bla Bla Bla.

Right on CCP and THO. Texas, or any part of it is not even close to what we have here in the REAL east. I watched his video and the tips geared toward REAL eastern hunters are laughable at best!!

He doesn't even come close to understanding the eastern coyote or how to hunt them.

I would love to see him come out here and try to hunt like he does out there, I would bet that he wouldn't get much video.

[browning204]

.  Do I think he is a good person....not too sure about that  .......

If you could hear some of the stuff he has pulled on other people you would know that he is NOT a good person.

I will just leave it at that.

[CritterBuster]

browning204 where is the real east????  Does the Mississippi divide it???  I know bs is an id10t  I was being polite......

[browning204]

I guess it depends on the person as far as where they wanna call themselves. But I am speaking from a New England stand point because that is where I am.  I have been told that East Texas does have more vegitation and less Critters than other parts of Texas  but the fact still remains. It is not even close to the thick stuff, hills, weather patters and WAY WAY less coyotes #'s

I mean come on, Even Eastern based companies film their little plug videos out in Texas, what does that tell you.

[FinsnFur]

As far back as I can remember, the so called dividing line has always been the Mississippi River....which goes no where near Texas, nor does does any water or part within, flow into Texas.

[browning204]

As far back as I can remember, the so called dividing line has always been the Mississippi River....which goes no where near Texas, nor does does any water or part within, flow into Texas.

Correct.

According to the biologists in my state ( for what it is worth) coyotes have been in NH since the 60's or 70's. The came here only after crossing into Canada near the great lakes and after mating with the grey Wolf.

That right there will tell you that our coyotes act way differently than the little mangy poodles that the have in Texas.

As I said, I would love for him to come out here and get skunked. That is something that I would pay for! Even if it was free.

[THO Game Calls]

Actually, the first verified coyote in NH was taken in 1944.

Prior to the 1800's, there are no reports of coyotes ever being in NH.   


Al

[George Ackley]

my dad took his first PA coyote in 1963

[securpro]

As a new coyote hunter I definitely have a lot to learn and I look to this forum and it's members for all my information and not to video's shot out west. I 100% agree with CCP on hunting eastern coyote's is not the same as hunting them west of the big river.  I have hunted coyote's in Colorado on the border of Roosevelt national forest , It IMO was more like shooting fish in a barrel. We would see coyote's just about everywhere we went with no calling , just drive around and stop when you see um. (kinda boring after a while)   Not at all like hunting here in Ky where you have to earn your coyote.    

And as for reading whats going elsewhere on other forums   (WHY) All a person needs is right here at FNF.

besides : I would feel like I was cheating or something!!!!

[George Ackley]

I just like to add, there are many place in the west i have called were(A)coyote was hard to come by.

my next question maybe a little off topic  but what do you guys think
I have my uneducated theory why the coyote migration is so slow to appear in the far east, and have posted them many times, but why do you guys think we have such less coyotes then the rest of the country

also i think we are starting to call more and more every year, we have had coyotes for a long time but they are getting more callable each year ,, why

[securpro]

I dont think that there are that many more coyotes out west compared to the east, their just easier to see out in the open. We dont have any 20 or 30 thousand acre fields here in the bluegrass.  They have alot more places to hide and seem to be alot sneekier in the woods and hills. 

[George Ackley]

I wouldn't almost bet there's more coyotes in just south Texas & West Texas then there is in Pennsylvania,
New Jersey ,New York, Delaware & Marryland combind

[Jimmie in Ky]

Last time I talked with a biologist( which was a few years ago ) He gave me some info about what the population is doing. In some parts of the east we have a population that matches what they say New mexico has, 1 for each half mile. Hard to believe that at times. But I have seen at least one population peak and crash in the LBL in just the last few years. It is just above half of what it was two years ago. How often does the population in an area peak and crash? How many areas are nearing a peak cycle? What makes them crash?  I don't hear the western hunters talk about parvo or distemper too much but we talk about it often enough here in the east. I have also seen more mange than normal in the last couple of years. Winters have not been cold enough to cull the population of fleas and mites the last few years in my area.

But also as Securpro stated we don't have the section sized open areas here either. To see an open area anywhere near that size I have to go to the river bottoms . What we have is trees and brush and plenty of it. How many times have you heard a hunter with some experience tell the newb to circle his setup in the snow. How many have we all called over the years we never knew anything about?


We have a population of animals that see humans nearly every day if not everyday.  I wonder how often a coyote on a ten section western ranch sees a human. What about the government lands out there?

I think these are the things that make hunting coyotes so dificult for us here. We know so little about them and are still learning. I am still asking a lot of questions I don't have anwsers to yet . I never really know if I just get lucky or am fairly good at hunting these things. I have seasons when I cant seem to do anything wrong and others when it seems I can't do anything right. Jimmie

[THO Game Calls]

How often does the population in an area peak and crash? How many areas are nearing a peak cycle?

Even in New Hampshire you can see poipulation fluctuations. 

The only data we have to go on, that which collected by the state, are the trapping numbers.   But they tell a story.

In 1989, we had more trappers than anytime since in New Hampshire, and they trapped 169 coyotes.

Now I believe that all coyotes trapped, or at least the vast majority of them trapped in NH are incidental.  I do not, and have never spoken to a single trapper who targets coyotes here. 

In 2005, the last year we have stats for, they tripled the number of coyotes trapped with a decrease of 33% fewer trappers.

looking at the state wide numbers for the last 20 years, you can see the population growing over all, but you can also see what appear to be periods of decline.

Between 1993 and 1997 the number of coyotes trapped increased each year

In 1998 and 1999, they trapped 25% less, and that was with a comparable number of trapper to the previous 3 years.

As for the population growing, again, all we have to go on are incidental captures by trappers.  But in 1990, they trapped 155 coyotes,   

In 2003, they trapped 716. 

I think in 2004 and 2005 we had one of those population declines because they trapped 600 in 2004 and 457 in 2005.

The numbers will bounce back this year if history reapeats itself. 

There is still plenty of room for them to expand thier numbers here in NH, but if you look at it, to go from 155 trapeed in 1990 to 700 plus just 13 years later, that is a pretty big boom.   

I would bet that within the next 10 years, the population will continue to expand, and hunting in NH will get much better.

What is even more interesting to me, is that they say the coyotes came from the west, through Canada, and down into NH.

Coyotes must travel the same path as the Canadian Gray Wolf, and they have said for years that the Gray Wolf is not in NH because of the St Laurence Seaway, which is a natural barrior to their migration to the south.  But the coyotes seem to have made it just fine  :) It is only within the last 3 or 4 years that they have admitted that the Canadian Gray Wolf has been crossing the Seaway when it freezes, and that there is a small population of wolves in the great north woods.   

Al




Reference material  can be found here.  Scoll to the end of the report for the NH Fur Bearers Report and trapping number information

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunting/Hunting_PDFs/Wildlife_Harvest_2006.pdf

[Silencer]

also i think we are starting to call more and more every year, we have had coyotes for a long time but they are getting more callable each year ,, why

Not sure, this is just a guess on my part george, there isnt as much game anymore.  Everything from deer to rabbits have diminished up this way.  The only thing I see really striving is turkey.   Maybe they're letting  hunger get the best of them ??  Like I said, just a guess on my part.  I certainly have seen more coyotes than ever before, when you're seeing them in mid day you know something must be changing. 

Oh, I also wanted to add this year is the only time I've ever seen the mange.  Seems quite a few have it up in my neck of the woods, and hopefully my bud Dusty has trapped them all off :)

[THO Game Calls]

Why are we calling more?

I think it has to do with several things.  First, calls are getting a lot better.  E calls and hand calls.  Second, eastern hunters are learning how to hunt coyotes.  Thrid, there's just more of them. 

A coyote doesn't need rabbits or deer to live on.  He can get by quite well on small rodents and other small animals that we don't hunt, but when he hears a real meal, it might just get his interest up, so there may be something to the thought that the less game the easier they are to call.

I really think though that is has to do with hunters understanding them better here in the east and the advancement in calls and the population is growing.

AL

[Jimmie in Ky]

It's not just that the calls are getting better, I don't think. Hunters are getting more educated to the variety of sounds and how they work. They are learning to work on various response triggers the coyote has. They are figuring out setup so they see more of them without educating them .

Check your state hunting boards and see how many new callers there are this year. I will bet they have added as many as my own has to the list of crazies that chase the coyote. They are asking a lot of questions and are learning faster than we did.

And another thing you can add to the list that keeps our numbers from growing so quickly. About ten percent of the deer hunters out there will shoot evry coyote they see. Another twenty will shoot the one they have seen a few too many times during the season. Just here around the house I estimate they took out 40 % of the coyotes in the neighborhood this year. They are blaming the coyote for a lot of the game they are not seeing . Was a time when they let th coyote walk because they were afraid of spooking the deer with he shot, not so much any more. Jimmie

[George Ackley]

Silencer,,,
I know some guys are complaining about the deer herd but i hunted Pike  3 D and seen lots of deer on just about every trip all 4 of my youth hunters tagged out with 1 taking 3 deer 2 spikes with his bow ( 1 was under 3'') and a doe rifle, another with a 7 pt his brother harvested a spike and one harvest a button buck open day gun.with a total of 6 deer for the kids. I shot a couple here also.  the guys took 4 more the first 3 days of the buck season.
the deer herd is defiantly down but they are there.. And I am one that believes deer are not the main food source for are coyotes. As for turkey, I think are turkey are in as good health  as they ever been, there's more turkey then ever,
In my opinion .

Jimmy,
there are over 1 million hunters ,,, more like 1.4 million guys out in the woods here in PA and I would bet no Moore then 125 coyotes are shot by non coyote hunter in that I mean , deer hunter , rabbit hunters , and bird hunters.
you are right about all the new guys hitting the woods for coyotes I would say in PA from what I seen predator hunter number may have at the least doubled just in 07.. and coyotes are getting harvest, but ! i think if someone was to crash the numbers it would be that the harvest coyote numbers are do to just having that many more guy after then,, I don't feel that the guys like me out there are killing any more now then we did 5 years ago.. just my opinion ,,,

this is not directed towards anyone . just something to think about

I am going to put some numbers up ,
I hunted 3 days in Maine in 07 were I made at least 30 sets and seen and harvest 1 coyote . Then the first trip to Texas in 07 was for 3 days and 4 nights  where I called in and harvest 17 coyote 3 bobcat 2 badgers. then the secant trip to Texas in 07 was for 1 week I called to the gun no less then 25 coyotes and 5 cats. then I spent 15 days in BC in 07 where we took 2 lion's with dogs and 4 coyotes called and killed with the gun.
between ,Pennsylvania , New Jersey, Delaware I would say I called in no less then 15 reds & 2 or 3 grays.  I dont take foxes

Now I will tell you about my year of calling coyote in PA
  I will estimate that have hunted 70 days this year for just coyote in PA,, I figure no less then 500 sets I called in 4 coyote
we killed 2 , wounded 1 got busted on 1 and I am shore there were many that busted me that I didn't see ,, but not that many.

I am a sponge!!!! I will suck up are the knowledge anyone wont's to give me to be a better predator hunter at home...

sorry about rambling on but i am getting ready to hit the hill for another 3 days of calling he in PA ,and it get hard to keep at it at times so much disapointment it wears on a guy