cow carcasses as bait??

[Frogman]

wv-yoter and I scouted a farm yesterday 4/2/08 where we found two very ripe cow carcasses.  The land owner has had coyote problems and will let us hunt.  This is a 400 acre farm.  We found this scat with what appears to be deer dew claws in it:



Not too far from the scat we found this mature cow carcass.  Quite ripe!





The second carcass was 150 to 200 yards away near what appeared to be a dead pile.



The second carcass was mostly consumed.  Both were very strong smelling.

Nearby in a haul road we found coyote sign:



And more coyote sign:



Lots of coyote sign in the area near the carcasses:



Here is a shot looking down the road toward the farm house and outbuildings.  The dead pile is just off the road to the left near Jason in this photo:



My first question is how long will the coyotes continue to feed on the carcasses?   I would guess until they are consumed.

Second question is, should we set up close to the carcasses?  Or set up further away and try to intercept the dogs as they come in to feed?  This would be more difficult as there are many ways the dogs can get to the carcasses.  Maybe try both?  There is quite a bit of brush surrounding the second carcasse.  We could set up on the hill overlooking the first one if the wind is good.

Third question, what kind of calls should we use near these carcasses?

Fourth question, day or night hunt?

As we were leaving we found another coyote sign:
   


      

How would you guys try to kill some dogs here.     The owner says they have never been called.  We ran the siren a couple of times while we were looking around and thought we heard coyotes off in the distance once.  Thanks in advance for your suggestions!


Jim

[alscalls]

I would go back at dark and locate them and then some other time I would locate them at like 4 AM and see where they are hanging out. Then make a plan keeping the wind directions and what would be good for this spot in mind.
http://www.geocities.com/alscalls/coyote.html

[Bopeye]

This would be a fun day hunt. Probably more successful during the night, but it would be a fun day hunt.

I'd say anytime would be good and no need to locate.........you found 'em. Start calling...........

[Rich]

Coyotes around here don't feed on carrion very much during spring and summer, but they still seem to hang around the dead piles a lot. Coyotes even seem to hang out around old bone piles quite a bit. Depending on wind direction, I would likely setup out in the clearing near the dead pile, and try to call the coyotes out of the woods far enough to whack em with a bullet.

[coyotehunter_1]

Well... so much for my steak dinner       

Not hard to tell which way the wind is blowing, ayyy? 
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


Over the years , I've found that coyotes will investigate but seldom touch a dead farm critter if it has been sick and treated with certain antibiotics.
You are seeing tracks but are you convinced coyotes are using the dead pile on a regular basis?  Sounds like a good area for a game cam.

Bop and I don't hunt over dead stuff simply because it could be construed as baiting, which our TN wildlife commission considers an illegal practice. 
If I could hunt over "bait"   I would try to locate the most used travel lane leading in and set up an ambush point a few hundred yards off the carcasses. 

Personally, I feel this this could also be a good spot to try a "set and watch", calling very little... if any.   

 

[HaMeR]

   Do you guys think maybe some interrogation howls on low volume be good?? 

[alscalls]

I think you should be patient and find them first and their travel patterns and then make a plan. I like the game camera idea however, do not set it up on the carcass set it up on a likely travel route.
http://www.geocities.com/alscalls/coyote.html

[msmith]

Keep going Jim! You're asking a lot of great questions and I am learning a bit by following them.

By the way, I recognize that last coyote sign and I believe I have seen the coyote that put it there. 

[Frogman]

msmith,
        Yes we found lots of good coyote sign (signs) in this area.  I hope this rain lets up so we can get back out there and try out some of the above suggestions.  I especially liked the "just sit and watch" without calling suggestion.  We might give that a try for and hour or so then if nothing comes in we could try some soft howls?? 

Jim

[FinsnFur]

I'm with Coyotehunter_1, I'd look around for some well traveled paths and use them to your advantage.

Someone mentioned an interrogation howl, my opinion is that could do more damage then not until actually challenged by other coyotes.

I think I'd keep my distance from the carcases but keep them in site and do a lone howl. Is anybody out there sorta thing. Let them know what you found and if there's no one here you'll gladly help yourself.
But I dont believe coyotes eat as much carrion as some people believe. The adults teach them young how to kill and acquire their food...and they are good at it, they are predators, not scavengers. But dont take that the wrong way, they will still eat some carrion.

[Jerry Hunsley]

Dead cows can definetly be a great calling card. From what the pictures show , it doesn't appear to have many coyotes in that area. It doesn't take very long for them to eat a cow in short order if you have numbers. Normally I don't usually set up and call right on the bait , but I have done it. I use just simply a lone howl. Most of the time the coyotes will be back in there core area which will be a real remote spot. It may be miles away. They will travel many,many miles if there is a good source of food readily, especially in the Winter time. The key is figuring out where they have been coming from and set up in that general area. It may be a mile or so away. Just look at the terrain and you can paint a pretty good picture as to where they have been coming from. Here is a picture of a cow ,coyotes devoured in about a week. I caught 11 coyotes in about a 4 mile area off that cow.

[Bofire]

  I have a friend 3 miles away that runs stock, over the years every now and then he loses one. I also go out there when he is calving.
I dont call at all, I  carefully  check the distance and just sit back about 250-400 yards. I have knocked over several this way.

I have killed coyotes the morning after killing one, on the same cow, after I left  the first coyote there. These coyotes come back until there is nothing but bones. I killed one on the farm that was actually pulling on a calfs leg trying to get away from Momma Cow, and several feeding on afterbirth.
Carl

[Jimmie in Ky]

I happen to agree with Chet. I have not seen a carcass touched that may have had treatment prior to its' death. With the price of a good cow today they are going to try and save each one of them. Those carcasses look like buzzards have been there but no coyotes chewing on them. Buzzards go for the soft tissue at the back end first and the eyes.

I think the biggest draw for the coyote to one of these bone piles is the other small varmints chewing on the bones. Rats , mice squirrels , you name it all work these bones over for the calcium and other nutrients in the bones. That is fresh meat the coyote prefers.

If they kill it , it's another story all together. They will work that area real regular and be close by. Just find the good setups and call it. Jimmie

[possumal]

Frogman:  A lot of good stuff offered up by the rest of the crew.  I have found that coyotes will always check out anywhere they have ever found a free meal.  They'll come back to a bone pile time and time again, sometimes just lying in the sun chewing on the old bones. I've killed several when doing that.  If I were going to try that spot now, I'd look at the most likely travel path from the thick stuff to the dead animals and the old bone pile, get set up about an hour before sundown, and give one  or two long yip howls just before the sun goes down behind the trees, and just watch.  You are most likely to have those rascals show up within 10 minutes of your yip howls, or the last 15 minutes of light.  I have found that the biggest old coyotes didn't get that way making a lot of mistakes. They are nocturnal for the most part just naturally, but that changes a lot in really cold weather when they need more energy to survive. Like Jimmie said, if they killed the animal involved, it is an entirely different game.  Two winters ago, down in Mercer County, Ky. a bunch of coyotes killed a really big calf, drug him down the farm road about 100 yds, under the gate, and across the creek bank about 50 yds to a little grove of locust trees.  I had the farmer drag him with his tractor about 300 yds up through a hay field and staked him out in a spot I could observe from between two rows of rolled bales about 150 yds away. I could sneak in from his son's farm with no chance of them seeing or smelling me the way the wind blew that week.  I killed 6 big coyotes off that calf carcass in one week, 2 of them one evening.  They were all killed in the last 15 to 20 minutes of daylight.  I am convinced they were the same 6 that killed the calf, as they all came from the direction where we had found him dead. Good luck to ya!

[Frogman]

Thanks so much for all the suggestions guys.  That is why I really like this forum.  Some of the most experienced coyote hunters around jump in on a thread like this and offer up their suggestions based on years of experience.  Thanks and keep the thoughts coming.   

I would like to add some info that might help. 

First, this farm really doesn't have areas of thick stuff.  Instead this farm is mostly all thick stuff with some narrow meadows and one relatively recent haul road going up through the middle of them to two wells.  This haul road follows a ridge with the meadows cleared out on either side of the top of the ridge just as far down the sides of the hill as a tractor can go, which in some places isn't very far.  Further down the sides of the hills is mostly hardwoods.  Some is relatively open, but most is pretty thick.  For this reason it is hard to set up to intercept the dogs coming to the carcass and the dead pile.  There are just too many ways the dogs can approach.  I'm thinking we should set up where we can see the carcasses if we can get the wind right?!   Here are a couple more photos:



This one is looking out a trail toward the head of the holler toward where the freshest dead cow is.  If you walk on out this trail about another 100 yards the carcass is down over the hill to the right about 75 yards.



This is looking down over that hill before we got to where we could see the dead cow.  It would be to the left of this photo about  as far down as you can see.  It is difficult to judge distances in these photos, but you might get a better idea of the terrain and cover.

Second, due to what the owner told us, I don't think the cows that died had any kind of medication.

Third, I'm not sure, after just one visit that coyotes are hitting the carcasses a lot because the freshest one had been there for several weeks and there appears to be quite a bit of it left.  Also we didn't find a lot of dark colored scat that would indicate to me that the coyotes were feeding on the carcasses.     I just don't know.  However the land owner did indicate that they hear the coyotes regularly and had even seen them near the farm house.

I'm thinking that we should set up near the freshest carcass which is also nearest the house and just sit quietly and watch for awhile.  This one is situated about halfway down over a hill with some fairly open hardwoods above it where we could sit about 75 yards away and and above and watch it.  Only if the wind is right.  If nothing shows up, we could try a lonesome howl or two and see if we get a response.  If not we could move just a little ways to the meadow you can see behind Jason in the picture where we could see up the haul road toward the dead pile and the second carcass and stay there for a while just watching.  Try some howls again after a little while.  In other words watch a lot and call very little.

Please don't hesitate to pick this plan apart, because I think we have a really good chance to kill some dogs here and I don't want to screw this up.

wv-yoter please jump in here with any thoughts you have.  You were there with me and saw the situation first hand.  Hopefully with all of us working this together we can devise a plan that will kill us some dogs.

I wish I knew how to post those aeriel photos I see others post up.     If you guys could explain how that is done I could post one of this area and it might help us. 

It will probably be a couple of days before we can get back out there as we are getting more rain as I type this here on Friday night.

Thanks again for all the input.        I hope the above additional info helps.

Jim   

[msmith]

Hey Jim, this is getting good. Since this property is just a stone's throw from my house, I'd like to offer some info/ideas for the guys to critique.

I'm not sure how your pictures are oriented as far as North South goes, but your wind will be coming off the river. Generally that means out Rt 3 at some angle or another but, it's going to shift...alot. Usually 180, sometimes 90 degrees. What about a tree stand high on the ridges/fingers? How are the ridges/fingers, with fields, oriented as far as the wind goes? In our area, it is usually thicker at the fence lines and field egdes. I would think that this would offer a good travel lane and the fields a funnel for hanging a stand. I was thinking that it would be nice if you could get a cross wind that carried scent across the field one way and high above the hollow when it shfts, and it will shift. Just a thought.

Mike

[alscalls]

Where are they denning? Their territory will have shrunk to that area, to a point.
Location, Location, Location.
Remember those dogs that came in on us Jim? I had suggested we go over the hill to a spot closer to the den?
We did not do that and the dogs crossed right where I wanted to sit.
I knew we should have, because I had done some scouting and locating and found where those dogs were ahead of time. Don't over think this spot just hunt where they are.
Pinpoint where they are just after dark and it will tell you where they will be right before dark.
It will also tell you where they will go to first thing in the morning.
These dogs are not starving for food but they will fight for territory if you get in theirs.
I have spent countless hours setting up cameras over bait and I really think setting up in sight of that cow is a waste of time.
You need a shooter and two callers to do this right, kind of like that night we called those two packs in. Accept the shooter Does not call at all If you and I had not made a sound that night I believe we would have killed some yotes. I believe we messed up that night and I just don't want you to make the same mistake twice and hunt where they are not.
Mike has some good thoughts about the wind, But find them first.
http://www.geocities.com/alscalls/coyote.html

[possumal]

Frogman: Even if the whole place is wooded, and there are a lot of ways the coyotes can come to the carcasses, there is still one avenue that is most likely for them to use.  Just like Jerry said, if you look at the lay of the land, think about a spot you can see the most the likely travel route, preferably a spot where several potential travel routes merge, I prefer that to setting up close to the carcasses.  The overwhelming odds favor the coyotes coming into that feeding area just before dark or even after dark. If you want to hunt them in the daytime, you are much better off concentrating on the travel routes.  Different guys set up different ways, but an elevated position in an area where you can already see a lot of avenues from the ground adds a lot to your visibility.  If you use a light ladder stand, try to use it where you have a couple of cedars you can see over just enough to see them coming, sort of a natural blind deal to keep you from getting silhouetted against the skyline. Don't let the fact that the country is thick enough to offer lots of sneaky routes to the coyotes, concentrate on the most likely routes.  What direction were the tracks coming from that lead to the carcass area?  If you have tracks both ways on those farm/logging roads, which was is the most likely for them to travel from their bedding areas?  Fun, ain't it?  

[wv_yoter]

This is the main road. This is where 90% of the tracks are found.



To the left is the area where they hear them, to my back is where they killed a calf  a month or so back. On the right is the dead pile. About a hundred yards up the trail is a new oil well, and the start of the meadows. this is also where the tracks start to disappear. Their is also a logging road that drops into the hollow to the left and this is where the tracks sorta disappear. ( coincidence)
  Their is also this game trail that leads from the same hollow to the dead pile. We found hair in the fence but their was too many leaves to make out any tracks.



We think they are in the hollow to the left. All things seem to point to that, but their is only one way to find out.

[possumal]

I hate to sound redundant, but find a "Spaghetti Junction" on that game trail that leads to the hollow and get as high up as you can where you can see as many of those various trails as humanly possible, and do your thing as previously described.  You can bet the farm they are hunting those gullies and undercut banks of the ditches and hollows, with the easiest route through the woods always close at hand.  For daytime hunting, I compare what you are seeing and finding to those areas in the woods where you see so many deer tracks and droppings.  From my experience, that is the area they are using a lot at night and even though it looks great to you and gets you all fired up, you are better off putting your stand off the trail that leads to those areas as close to the bedding areas as you can.  This is especially true for archery. In the biggest percentage of bow kills of big bucks, they are killed in an area they feel relaxed passing through, with a narrow window of opportunity for the shot.  The smart archer sets up and is patient waiting for that opportunity.  The coyotes are comparable in the fact they leave a lot of sign during their rambling at night, so it makes sense to be as near to their bedding area as you can, late evening or early morning, catching them coming or going to that bedding area. One final tip: If you are using a tree stand of any kind, don't get all shook up and drop your rifle when a big pair comes down one of those trails, and keep your safety belt on!     Good luck on your efforts.