tonights stand

[CCP]

 Me and Aaron don't post our hunts on the internet anymore but found today's hunt to be related to the subject. We are not going to use this so thought we would share it with you bigben maybe it will help you see what we are talking about. It is not a road setup but still should give you an idea of the concept.

The camera see's things in 2D and we see in 3D so keep in mind the distance from us to the wood line across from us is only 70 yards and the coyote was only 40 yards. We scouted and new where the coyotes where holding up so we new the direction the coyote's would come in. There was a coyote behind this one 80yards but was never on camera. We expected the coyote's to come from that direction but stopping on the hill and then work down wind toward the caller leaving us a easy shot. As you can see this coyote came in with the after burners on locked in on the sound. The decoy was on but more than likely it was locked on the sound. We don't have many coyotes and they are pressured here so we don't get to see many run in hard like this.

P.S.
Ben, Aaron's shooting has greatly improved this season so don't hold this one hunt against him.   In his and Mike's defense they were shooting through a old blow down didnt expect to have to be shooting this quick there were pieces of old tree limbs going everywhere. :roflmao:

Time on stand till the coyotes came in 51 seconds.

[Bopeye]

"HE COME BOLTIN!!!!   :roflmao:

That was pretty cool fellas. Hope that helps you out Ben.

One more thing Ben..........NEVER shoot in the general direction of your partner unless a bear is fixing to eat him. 
My partner has been hunting them since 1973 and I don't believe he has ever seen a situation where you need to shoot towards your partner. 

[Rich]

"There was a coyote behind this one 80yards but was never on camera. We expected the coyote's to come from that direction but stopping on the hill and then work down wind toward the caller leaving us a easy shot. As you can see this coyote came in with the after burners on locked in on the sound."
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CCP,

I want to be sure that I understand this setup. The caller was 100 yards or so down-wind of you guys? When I look at the video clip, the wind is blowing on your right shoulder then?  All three of you were pretty close to each other while watching the clearing for coyotes?  Was there someone  back near the caller to whack any coyotes that may come in from down-wind?

[alscalls]

CCP, What path did you take to put out the call?
How did you or did you use scent?
How were you sure the coyote would come from that direction?
I am curious cause we sometimes set up very similar.
Tell that feller not to sweat it too hard we have all been there and done that.....Those dogs can be flat tough.

[CCP]

The caller was 100 yards or so down-wind of you guys?

It was up wind at an angle.

All three of you were pretty close to each other while watching the clearing for coyotes?

Yes while filming we set beside of each other as one. I run the camera and do the calling and try to show people how we would setup as a single person. We happened to have another person with us this morning and let them have a shotgun.

Was there someone  back near the caller to whack any coyotes that may come in from down-wind?

The wind was blowing from the caller out into the field at an angle. Down wind of the caller would be in the field about where the coyote was when the first shot was fired.


I wish this coyote had not have come in so hard. Usually the coyotes around here are seasoned to people shooting at them. In a a case of normal coyotes around here it would have ran down the field until it was around 150 yards from the caller. Then checked up on the hill to try and get a visual.(50 Yards from us) Then angled down the edge of the fence line. If it had done that it would have went right in front of us on the point before moving back out into the field to get down wind of the caller.

CCP, What path did you take to put out the call?

We dropped it off 100 yards from where we were going on the way in to the set.

How did you or did you use scent?

None, we just always try to setup where the coyote doesn't come from the direction we walk.

How were you sure the coyote would come from that direction?

From scouting you can tell where a coyote goes during the day the hardest part is finding what day they are on the certain piece of property.

Tell that feller not to sweat it too hard we have all been there and done that.....Those dogs can be flat tough.

He was pretty tore up about it. He had some 2-3/4 #1 buckshot I had some 3inch #1 in the truck and he took them instead. He setup a target when he got home at 40 yards and said they were shooting higher. I think he shot more behind it but I have missed my share  through the years.

[Jrbhunter]

It is this type of bad advice that causes the unknowing newcomer to become confused and often scared away from even trying to learn the proper way to call critters. It is also why I don't give advice on public boards very  much anymore. I have been calling wild critters since JRB was still in diapers, but he is already set himself up as the "all knowing". The development of the remote controlled E caller was meant for the purpose of getting the sound and scent out away from the hunter. Now JRB has stated above that the "traditional" E caller placement is to set the E caller upwind of the hunter. I find that statement foolish and misguided. Doing this means that the all knowing JRB is still practicing the old wind in your face method, which I learned long ago is a very bad idea. He also has not yet figured out that the coyote that circles around  is trying to get down-wind of the screams before final approach. Setting the caller behind you and watching upwind? Maybe JRB should check for fresh coyote tracks down-wind  of where he had been sitting. He just might open his eyes a little bit when he learns how many times he is getting back doored. I am an old fart with no need to prove anything to anybody. My knees are bad, four arteries in my heart have been bypassed and I carry too dang much body fat around. I can't hunt as hard or as long as I once did. I will not allow age to enter in to my quest to learn more about the coyote, nor will I allow the youth an inexperience of Mr. JRB  to influence my opinion of the fellow. Placing the caller behind you  where you can not see it is always a bad idea, period. JRB kills a few coyote that way. I know he does, or he wouldn't have said that he does. What I also know is this. JRB would kill a heck of a lot MORE coyotes if he learns to open his mind. Place the dang caller CROSS-WIND for crying out loud, and watch the DOWN-WIND side at least 90 percent of the time.

Edit: In reading JRB's post, I believe that I misinterpreted  which way he watches according to wind direction. I didn't read it very well beyond the first paragraph. I also believe that he hunts with a pardoner a lot, which makes a huge difference. I stand by my statement that placing the caller behind you where you can't see it is a very bad idea. Someone needs to be watching that area where caller is sitting.

Rich, before you go off with longwinded and attacking replies you should take a moment and read the post your replying too thoroughly.  It appears you're so open minded you might've lost it somewhere.  If I was a "Wind in your face" guy I wouldn't be killing 1/3 of the coyotes I do... and even you've commented on that on different hunting forums last fall.  The crosswind concept was something I explained, with your applause, nearly four years ago... and now you're going to powder my diaper with old news?  My tongue-in-cheek comment about conventional calling stands was meant to stir up some of the more experienced guys: but not with misguided rants and personal attacks. 

Having hunted with a partner extensively for about ten years: I usually give them what we percieve to be the best shot... then get myself "out of the way" and see what develops.  This allows me to pretend the shooter is alone, running his own caller, and I can get a birds eye view of what might've happened to him had I not been there.  Did he get circled? Did a coyote come straight at the caller?  He would've never known on our "one man stands" but because I was there we can document what went down.   THAT'S why I will give up view of the caller when I do hunt alone- because 85/90% of the time a view of the caller was unnecessary in our thick cover stands.  Not always- but usually- it was more productive to be downwind at all costs.   You can't always have it both ways when hunting solo- and a wise caller will choose the most productive method when options run thin.  If seeing the caller meant giving up a logroad 45 yards downwind---- no way I'm going to be looking at a speaker on that stand.

As for shooting close range coyotes, and coyotes remotely close to other hunters, I'll leave that up you fellas to judge since that's apparently what this topic has become.   We all have different amounts of trust in the guys we hunt with and variable levels of fear in our surrounding.  In my wild wrecklessness I've let two guys simultaneously hurl six-barb crankbaits over my head on a 12' johnboat as well.  I've even shot bow competitions indoors with 10 other guys of various abilities occasionally glacing arrows off concrete and metal siding!  I've ridden ATV's without a helmet for years, racecars with no HANS, sat on the bedrails of many trucks and even clung to a rope behind a speeding boat balanced on two wooden planks.  I've climbed a thousand treestands with no harness and swam in a few rivers with no life jacket.  I guess I'm a general maniac amongst this crowd, taking those types of risk.  (Yeah- Right)  :roflmao:    To each their own. 

[bigben]

yeah jim I agree grey foxs are ego boosters but when it is runnin around with a 40.00 price tag on him I want that ego booster.  hear what I mean?  coyotes round these parts aren't worth diddly.  heck a nice full thick coon is worth more then coyotes.  I plan on tagetin mainly greys and coon this year along with coyotes when the opportunity presents itself. 

[Rich]

JRB,

If you read my edit, you will see that I already stated that I may have misunderstood which direction you were watching in relation to prevailing wind.  Your practice of placing the caller behind you where you can't see it was so wrong that it caused my emotions to take over. I am pretty sure that you already know the mistake you are making by not watching the area around the caller which is source of the screams. If you want to do that yourself, that is one thing. There are beginners reading the advice given on this forum, and to advise folks to set the caller behind you where you can't see it is wrong.  There are times when placing the caller further away from you can certainly help, but in order to enjoy the best results, you still must keep that sound source in your view. I can only hope that you will think about this subject a bit more.

[Rich]

Ben,

We have a lot of coons around here, a heck of a lot of coons. Sometimes I ponder the idea of calling coons instead of coyotes. That would mean that I would have to skin em though.  :roflmao:

[Jrbhunter]

Rich, I'm not sure we're all on the same page here.

We aren't talking about putting a caller 500 yards away in another conrfield... or even across a fencerow just out of sight.  We're not talking about sitting over a ridge from your caller, or facing an entire different direction.  We're not talking about calling open desert, sprawling pastures or open tundra here.

The theory is: in thick cover (Weather it be hardwoods or high CRP) the shooter can not ALWAYS watch the most likely approach route AND the electronic caller at the same time.  Not ALWAYS.  In some cases it is best- undenyably- to put yourself between the soundsource and the coyotes most likely approach even if it means not having visual contact with the caller.

In the event that a hunter is alone, as the only shooter he must put himself in the best possible location to kill the MAJORITY of the coyotes that will respond to that stand.  Yes he will give up an upwind charger on 1 in 75 stands if he cannot see the caller... but by covering the MOST LIKELY approach route in situations where he cannot cover both- he will kill more coyotes with a caller behind him.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear, or maybe you're as clueless on hardwoods calling as you seemed to think I was earlier Rich.  I'm not sure.  This discussion is getting way more complicated than it should be: but pulling coyotes "thru" your position isn't rocket science anymoreso than taking the lesser of two evils and losing eyesight of your caller for a stand here and there.  Both of these practices are common knowledge to succesful elk and turkey hunters even riper in age than Cronk himself- why it's so hard for a predator hunter to grasp is beyond me.


PS: Before your emotions get wound up again- remember that I've done many many stands in this cover with partners which is where my experience of getting circled comes from.   Succesful calling, to me, is a numbers game.  I've seen the percentages in which a caller got circled- and the percentages in which a coyote charged from straight upwind to pounce the caller.  I've seen how hard it is to swing a rifle in the woods, hit moving objects at close range with a rifle, and all the other factors that come into play when hunting this terrain and cover.  I am not basing my tactics on something Murray Burhnam said about West Texas or Rich Cronk said about Iowa- I do what I do because of my success with it.

[Rich]

"The theory is: in thick cover (Weather it be hardwoods or high CRP) the shooter can not ALWAYS watch the most likely approach route AND the electronic caller at the same time.  Not ALWAYS.  In some cases it is best- undenyably- to put yourself between the soundsource and the coyotes most likely approach even if it means not having visual contact with the caller."
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JRB,

We are on the same page sir. I agree wih most of your calling methods, but you are dead wrong on your idea of placing the caller behind you where you can't see  the area around it.  Take CCP's video clip stand for instance. He could have placed the caller out in the clearing some 60-80 yards  out front and to his  hard left. The hard charging coyote which was possibly headed for the sound source may have offered a better shot when checking up at the speaker. Now if the coyote was simply running from the hunters he just smelled, maybe a coyote distress yipe or two might have caused said coyote to stop and look back. Either way, the hunters would have seen anything that approached the caller. Since they couldn't see the area around the caller, they don't know how many coyotes came in to check it out.

[Jrbhunter]

I've not seen the clip, nor will I engage in nitpicking one stand versus another in a hypothetical dreamworld.   

I would gladly (and have in the past) embrace new ideas or techniques that would help me kill coyotes.  Same goes for abandoning old habits that were costing me coyotes- I've done my fair share of that over the years.   I've gathered information from hundreds of sources yet evolved my style of hunting based on works best for me... and until someone crawls out of the woodwork around here it'll remain the most succesful method for miles and miles and miles around on these hardwoods coyotes. 

Coyote population dynamics, coyote hunting, public ground access, hunting pressure, equipment available and calling in general has changed SIGNIFIGANTLY since your prime Mr. Cronk.... much less in an area 600 miles EAST of your experience zone.  You're talking apples and oranges with your cookie cutter phylosopies.  As it pertains to hunting Eastern coyotes in thick cover, I stand by what I said.  Your mind is closed- and I've killed enough coyotes to disprove your theory to myself so I'm not buying into it.   Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and all outsiders will have to consider the sources for themselves.

[Rich]

JRB,
I had you figured correctly when I posted the first truth about your "know it all" attitude. I have seen a lot of guys like you in my time. Those who know it all already, will never really learn the truth of his downfalls.  There is no man alive, who knows everything about coyotes.  That is the reason that guys like me continue the never ending quest for better understanding of the critters. I do know that you have to see a coyote before you can shoot it, which is why I never turn my back  to the sound source while on stand.  The screams are the lure, so that is where the coyote is headed. It sure would be embarassing  to see fresh coyote tracks in the snow, way back behind me when I walked over to pick up the caller. I hold no ill will toward you JRB. I'm headed to an Orthopedic surgeon the day after tomorrow. If he can fix my knee up so I can walk again, I will be back out there calling coyotes. Why? Because that is my real passion.
Good hunting to you,
Rich

[Jrbhunter]

JRB,
I had you figured correctly when I posted the first truth about your "know it all" attitude. I have seen a lot of guys like you in my time. Those who know it all already, will never really learn the truth of his downfalls.  There is no man alive, who knows everything about coyotes.  That is the reason that guys like me continue the never ending quest for better understanding of the critters.

You've known me online for 7 or 8 years and I've spoken to you on the phone as long as 5 years ago... you've sent me emails and private messages commending my success and writing skills and now I'm just another "know-it-all"?   You've acknowledge my abilities and knowledge enough to ask me for help in understanding variables like Topography & Thermal Airflow... and I'm a "wanna-be"?   

This must be another Foxpro, I mean Minaska, I mean Foxpro moment for you Rich.  I've been the same guy all along- willing to learn and graciuos to those who taught me.  I've taken lessons from many guys you know and several more you don't: guys on a level of coyote knowledge that you will never reach- and I only hope too with another 40 or 50 years of effort.

Rich, you've narrowed your mind beyond believing that hunting coyotes here... and hunting coyotes there... could be any different.  You've narrowed your mind beyond believing that a guy who is more succesful than 95% of the callers in his STATE could understand something that you don't- even though you're 600 miles away.  You've lost touch if you believe cornrow coyotes of the 1980's and deep woods pressured coyotes of today are one and the same.   The basics will always be the basics: but the variables that make succesful callers succesful are not in a Randy Anderson video.


PS: I don't believe coyotes in the hardwoods are heading "to the screams" as you say.  I tink they're heading to a location where they can smell and/or see the sound source- via structure/cover/terrain that will keep them hidden.  I kill coyotes on their way to that location: not to a speaker.   Old timers talk about the way foxes, and even the earliest coyotes in this area, would barrel in "to the screams" but it ain't that way anymore.   A small percentage- yes- but enough to bank on?  No.  That crap apparently ended in the 1980s.

[Rich]

JRB,
You are trying to put words in my mouth that I didn't say. I never said that you were a "Wanna be", never said that you were not a pretty dang good coyote caller, never said that coyotes didn't act differently in other area's. You are the one who stated that placing the caller behind you was a good idea, and you inferred that those of us who know better were "foolish". Since you are absolutely certain that your method is great, no need to listen to anybody who trys to explain otherwise, just pass em off as "foolish", it isn't hard to see who has the "closed mind". Since you already know everything about calling coyotes, I guess maybe "Know it all" describes ya fairly well. If the shoe fits, wear it. I am old enough to be your Grandpa, yep, I have a grandson who is 27. Be kind to us old farts OK?  :roflmao:  I am finished with this conversation now. There are a few folks out there who actually want to hear good advice.

[Jrbhunter]

You talk in circles more than John Kerry ever did.   For the sake of accuracy... let's go back to the original quote in which you disagree in its original context.  Notice I didn't say anyone's technique was foolish- only the thought that anyone could know everything about a given stand was ludicrous.

In order to never put an e-caller behind you: you'd have to know ALL variables on EVERY single stand before you hit the play button.  Foolishness.   Placement of a caller depends on the conditions given (terrain/weather/ect) along with the likely location of the coyotes your calling and finally including the wind direction and thus, the most likely path of approach.   To say the caller should "never" be "behind" you is inconcievable in calling Eastern coyotes.

I am absolutely positive that my method can be succesful here in the conditions described- proofs in the pudding- and I'm fairly certain these Eastern callers that generated this discussion in the first place aren't picking up much useful advice from your 30 year old cookie-cutter techniques on cornrow coyotes.  Yes it would be wonderful to see the caller and the coyotes approach and downwind and the escape route at the same time... but it's not possible here.

I'll go out on a limb and say you've never hunted this region of Indiana, nor the region of KY described in the original thread, nor many of the other Eastern states inhabited by those involved in this topic.  By your own admission in the past- you don't know the terrain, the cover, the populations and other variables we're dealing with. If you have hunted even remotely similar conditions- you haven't done it since the explosion of predator calling popularity took hold nor dealt with the public lands and hassled access that myself and others do.   If I'm wrong- please correct me- but these are just a few of the reasons I'll not bow down to your "age over experience" yammering.


You're making something out of nothing here Rich- and complicating this discussion WAYYYYY beyond it's value.   We've managed to type and argue for two pages about a scenario that comes into play in a very small percentage of the stands we make in my region.  That's foolishness.



EDIT: I was just made aware that this is likely the result of a "FOXPRO MOPHIA" grudge.  I don't keep track of who's on what team anymore... if I disagree with someone on any staff it's entirely coincidental that they're pushing a second rate product.   :roflmao:

[Rich]

If anyone is YAMMERING in this thread, it is the famous "Know it all"  JRB Hunter. I have never hunted Indiana or Kentucky, but I know and old boy down in Kentucky who has probably called and killed more coyotes already this fall than the infamous JRB has killed in his entire life. It matters not which brand of caller a man uses if he is just gonna turn it on and never bother to look at or around the area where said caller is set. Wow guys, JRB believes himself to be the Clint Eastwood of coyote callers. What a poor excuse for a joke.

Jim Champion,
I believe there is a "Dandy" arund here someplace. :)

[alscalls]

Awesome story .........thanks for sharing

[Jrbhunter]

It matters not which brand of caller a man uses if he is just gonna turn it on and never bother to look at or around the area where said caller is set

Oh come on now Rich, take a deep breath and think about what you're posting.  You are talking outside your experience base, about something you DIDN'T do 30 years ago.  The older you get- the better you were- right?   You're making something out of nothing, twisting my words and sliding this whole discussion out of context.  Come back to this thread later and read my post, word for word, and you'll find no basis for the comment you just made.

---------------------

I have never hunted Indiana or Kentucky, but I know and old boy down in Kentucky who has probably called and killed more coyotes already this fall than the infamous JRB has killed in his entire life.

Now that your spin machine has slowed down... may I back you into a corner?   Who is this mystery Kentucky coyote machine- and what part of the state has he taken 300 coyotes in 3 weeks?  Let's go out on a limb and say you exaggerated- but surely he's killed 30 coyotes in the last 3 weeks right?  Any way we could contact him to verify?   
 

[uncle_buck]

I am a predator caller from Pennsylvania.   Here I always  place my electronic caller behind me and travel 100 yards down wind of the caller to intercept the Eastern Coyotes going from point A  down wind to the caller that is Point B up wind.   When I use the mouth call to call in coyotes I  call up wind and send the shooters 100 yards down wind.  What I am doing is making the coyotes come pass the shooters to the call.  I can't ever remember a coyote stepping out of the woods right where I was calling with the mouth call.  Most times all I hear is the shot down wind of the elctronic caller or my calling.

Even the great Dennis Kirk will tell you that predators will get in the loudest or strongest part of the speaker.  Where the speaker is pointed they will go to that first then circle down wind.  So I always point the speaker down wind and I make sure the shooter is posted where they will get a shot at the incoming predator.


The poster that passed on how he likes to use the bend in the road really knows his stuff.  That is a sure killer for all canines.  Best to get on the outside edge too since you can see the critter coming down that road hundreds of yards away.   Inside edge your going to miss his apporach.



You really have to know just how predators act in different parts of the country.  Someday I am going to hunt with Bigben and I will put the speaker behind me or I will call and send him about 100 yards down wind of my position.  Probably down wind on a  old logging road.  Maybe he will find a hight spot that he can watch cross wind of the logging road and pick one off as it passes his point and heads toward my calling up wind or my speaker up wind of his position. 

This is how I hunt red fox here in Pa too.  However grey's?  I  post just 30 yards away from the speaker,  Now that is when you have to hunt the speaker for sure.


Nice forum you have here.