A new idea

[Jimmie in Ky]

I already know coyotes use escape routes just like deer. But can we predict that movement ?

I saw a scat yesterday as I drove into an area that was so fresh it is evident that I just missed seeing the animal in the road by just minutes. All nice shiny and slick! I checked the area I was going to and came back by this one noting how much it had dried since I had last seen it. I found several deer hunters at the lower end of that drainage. Could they have caused this particular animal to move that far when they entered the area? I would guess for an afternoon hunt they moved into the woods a little while before this animal crossed that road. Travel lane runs straight through to where I found the deer hunters.

Since this is a public use area it is food for thought. We know others have boogered our setups in countless ways over the years we have held this gathering. Could we use it to our advantage? Jimmie

[Ladobe]

Since you know that area so well Jimmie, I suppose you could use disruptions by others to your advantage if you know for sure the area is holding predators at the time of the intrusion, and have some clue where they were when disturbed by also knowing their normal daily routine.    Much like can be done in other kinds of hunting, big game for example.   Personally I prefer to not have the intrusions when I am out calling, but that is probably much easier to do in the vast open spaces of the west than in your more densely populated and used area.    Almost anything is worth a try though... you can never have too many tricks in your bag.

[nailbender]

 When the deer hunters come out like they did this weekend they get everything on the move. Trouble is that it's not safe to be anywhere! For beast or man!  If a critter comes toward you lead is probably following.  Not worth the risk

[stevecriner]

Ive had friends that have drove coyotes out sucessfuly for themselves. I belie it would be effective especialy if you had the zones we have talked about like a drainage ditch.  But the question arises,,,,Do we want to call and hunt predators or just hunt predators. Nothing wrong with either. But it would be like shooting a freebie to me. Im just not intrested but i wouldnt disagree with someone else doing it. To each his own and as long as its legal i say go for it if you want....

[Jimmie in Ky]

Ambush is not th idea. I am thinking if we can halfway predict where the animals will go under pressure, then we are able to call them at that position.

After years of hunting this area I know where they prefer to bed during the day. But small game hunters and bowhunters have use of the area as well. They do move the animals around so much that they become unpredictable and disapear under this pressure. I am going to study my topos of that area some and see if I can figure out the various places that group might go. I now know of two diferent routes they use under two diferent wind directions. What one group does they all do up there.  These animals survive very well by knowing where they can go and not run into a human.
And they get lots of practice doing it. Jimmie

[stevecriner]

Oh i see. This is a good idea. I dont see why it wouldnt even increase the succes in any given area.

[Jrbhunter]

I think if the theory works, and the coyotes are cornered into a specific area for cover... they're going to be nearly impossible to coax out in daylight conditions.  The amount of pressure it would take for a coyote to drop all normalcy and territorial reigns would surely increase his anxiety about a call.

In my experience coyotes are like mature whitetail bucks, no matter where I'm hunting them, when they are overly pressured they go to the most obscure locations and become a BUGGER to work with.   Shin high grass in a drainage swale, a 1/4 acre brushy sinkhole in the middle of a bean field, a section of blowdowns in a briar patch, all perfect bedding locations for wary game.   Good luck rattling or howling them in- by the time they've become that fed up with human interferance they've pretty well shut down interest in anything even remotely dangerous.

[stevecriner]

I believe very few of the coyotes I kill are responding out of hunger alone.  Coyotes are territorial, jealous, selfish, curious and horny... don't feel limited by their momentary abundance of food.

Same thing applies here i would believe. Coyotes are territorial, jealous, selfish, curious and horny... don't feel limited by their momentary abundance of safety

Jason, I agree with what your saying. Yes if the coyote was cornered, but i think Jimmy is saying the places they go when pressured not cornered.  These places Jimmy is talking about would be like the places the coyotes go when the 200 plus members of the Phoenix predator callers club start beatin em down....I by no means think they would not be callable. This is a comfort zone to them or they wouldn't be going there period. If a guy gets in there comfort zone and plays he will succeed, not every time ,but sometime.....Got to get in there with them.  If Jimmy maps these places out he will increase his success i believe.

[Jrbhunter]

Well I'd certainly rather call coyotes where coyotes are... than where they aren't.   And if they've all been pressured out of the cropfields, hardwoods or otherwise then I wanna be where they are.   HOWEVER, the level of pressure required to push coyote from their home turf in mass-exodus is going to bypass a lot of that other stuff about territorialism, hunger and curiousity.   At that point there is very little comfort... similar to whitetails who seemingly shut down all interest in breeding, eating and other social behaviors.

   I believe his comfort zone comes out when the sun goes down and all the orange hats are out of the woods... with no foriegn smells, sounds or sights in the woods he is free to relax the gaurd a little bit.  Coyotes can survive on a strict recess of 3-5 hours a night... again, much like those big bucks who are driven nocturnal by Tinks' 69 and Snickers wrappers.

  For the record, I'm not lumping all coyotes into this type of behavior... nor all whitetails... but if all indicators were of INTENSE pressure I would expect that result.   I have seen similar situations where coyotes are hounded 7 days a week for 10-15 weeks straight.


PS: Also you must realize the intense pressure they are seeing from other hunters will be short lived as season goes out.   The timeframe they are "uncallable" (Exagerrated term) would be based on the intensity and duration of the pressure they recieve.

[FinsnFur]

Territories is the only thing that goes through my mind reading this.
I'm Farrrrrrrr from fitting into any of the shoes that have posted so far, but wouldn't you think that the amount of actual pressure they were feeling from a short period of small game or bowhunters would pivot greatly on where their boundries were.?

I mean you know if your very close to a boundry line and they streak across it in a panic, they aint goin far. But knowing the boundries would be a big plus in finding that secret hideout they head to when the bowhunters tromp through.

[stevecriner]

I have seen similar situations where coyotes are hounded 7 days a week for 10-15 weeks straight.

Ok first we need to settle on the amount of pressure. Bowhunters and smal game hunters taking freebie shot when they can or hounds running them ragged.  You do me ran by hounds when you say hounded ,yes?

the intensity and duration of the pressure they recieve.

I think that is the whole key.

I'm Farrrrrrrr from fitting into any of the shoes that have posted so far

Well Jim your not right!!  Like the great Gary Clevenger said ," Im just makin this up ,,,what would you do."

[Jrbhunter]

I don't think the hunters would have to take a shot in order to pressure the coyote... in most cases I don't believe a coyote knows he has been shot at anyways.   They cannot rationalize a gunshot or arrow being released... they know it doesn't belong but have no way of knowing it was intended for them.  The mear presence of an extra 10,000 human bodies in the woods is enough to turn a coyotes lifestyle on it's nose.  Pennsylvania estimates 1 million hunters took to the woods opening day- can you friggin imagine?!?!

The urine, sweat, trash and noise that bombards their systems on opening day is undoubtably startling.    The "amount of pressure" will be derived from the number of hunters, type of hunters and size of area.  I don't think the hypotheticals on that pressure statistic really matter... if it's enough pressure for them to pick up and haul ass for a designated hideout it is probably enough to lower their interest in dangerous things like calling stands.

[keekee]

I believe if I am thinking on the same lines as Jimmie here that........

If the coyotes are pressured into a area, they can still be called. Kind of like we did in AZ last winter. These coyotes were hammered! All we had to do was move into the cover thick cover with the coyotes change things up some and we called and killed coyotes. You could call till the cows came home in the open and no dice, move into there core area, give them a little something diffrent and bam! You got coyotes! ( Just like you all did out there this fall Steve)

If you haft to hunt coyotes under these condishions he is just looking for a way to put a plan togeather to call them. Some dont have the option to night hunt or hunt allot of land.

And If I am reading this right he is asking if you can predict a coyotes escape routs? If so, yes you can, they drive them here all the time, and they kill coyotes. Not my cup of tea but it works.

Brent

[Jimmie in Ky]

Keekee, you and I both know these animals are callable and killable, even with all the pressure they recieve. We have done it. But we have also heard other callers we didn't know, working the area!

I am wondering if we can learn to predict th movements of these animals based on our knowledge of them in that particular area. We still haven't figured out a way to bust that pincer move they put on us yet.

In my opinion, a coyote under this type of pressure simply puts his nose to th wind and leaves.He knows where he's going and you do not, it is as simple as that. These are predators ,not prey species that freeze up and hide out when it gets tough.If it hears a mouse squeak , it is lunch time. He finds a warm hillside where he can watch his back trail , it's nap time.

And we humans as lazy as a general rule. We only go so far and turn back at some point in time. They have learned this about us over time in this area.They have learned they can escape by simply moving to another spot without the worry that we will follow. Territories for these groups are around ten square miles give or take a few, we aren't going to cover th whole thing looking for them in a day.

We are supposed to be smarter than they are but sometimes I wonder Jimmie

[Jrbhunter]

There is no doubt that "Coyotes" can be killed in those circumstances... I do it frequently around here in similar public hardwoods littered with orange hats.   The area you kill 5 coyotes on in Arizona probably would've produced 25 before the pressure... which means here in the East that 2 dog spot just turned into a 0.4 when deer season opened!

To me the question is about percentages, the ratio of your effort exerted versus the return in yield.   Quite simply;

I would rather rattle off 20 stands hoping to find 19 blanks and one unpressured (As defined above) coyote than do 5 stands exclusively for coyotes that have been hammered out of their home turf and bombed into shelter.   If you are narrowing down your huntable area to these specific "bomb shelters" you're cutting way down on the number of stands you're making.   I've done it both ways and had more luck with numerous stands.

If this tactic makes you feel confident then by all means keep at it, if it's THIS or stay home definately give it a shot.  It will kill "coyotes".   I made a stand matching this description about 6 hours ago so I'm not insinuating this idea is ludicrous... but I will say it's not the silver bullet we'd like it to be.

[keekee]

I dont think its no silver bullet by no means....But allot of hunters deal with this in there everyday calling. Remember JRB not everyone live's and breaths coyote calling like we do, or put near the time into it that we do.

And to some extent yes it is a tactic's game. I am to the point in my calling were I enjoy out smarting a wise old coyote over taking a yoy any day. Dont get me wrong I enjoy every call in. But I work some areas knowing what I am up against and still go back for more!

Point is allot of callers deal with this stuff every day. East or West!


Brent

[stevecriner]

I don't think the hunters would have to take a shot in order to pressure the coyote... in most cases I don't believe a coyote knows he has been shot at anyways.   They cannot rationalize a gunshot or arrow being released... they know it doesn't belong but have no way of knowing it was intended for them. 

Yes i know this and so does most everyone else, i was just saying that hunters are there. Most of do take shots when given a chance and yes the coyotes may know this but don't associate.

but I will say it's not the silver bullet we'd like it to be.

I agree,but what is? There ain't no silver bullet in coyote hunting. Thats the whole point in this thread. If we had silver bullets we wouldn't need these comfort zones that the coyotes are running to.

I agree that a coyote may go nocturnal and all,but thats what is special about these spots Jimmy is talking about. We can and DO get in there with them and call coyotes with consistency. Coyotes are to territorial, jealous, selfish, curious and horny to shut down.

I would rather rattle off 20 stands hoping to find 19 blanks and one unpressured (As defined above) coyote than do 5 stands exclusively for coyotes that have been hammered out of their home turf and bombed into shelter.

Why just 5 stands. Me and Higgins made 10 i think and seen 9 coyotes in a day and started late.(I'm not taking credit either ,Higgins called everyone of them but one.) These stands took place where some hunters from the campout hit the day before and the whole club hits every month and who knows how many in between. I think a it is a limitation to ones self to over look these conditions.

And to some extent yes it is a tactic's game. I am to the point in my calling were I enjoy out smarting a wise old coyote over taking a yoy any day. Don't get me wrong I enjoy every call in. But I work some areas knowing what I am up against and still go back for more!

Point is allot of callers deal with this stuff every day. East or West!

Yah thats right Brent. And the reason being is that someone taught us(me ,you,JRB,Jimmy) somewhere down the road that this is a very doable tactic and is consistant. I don't know how a fellows percentage could be higher overlooking these areas. Yes i don't think a guy should cut his areas down to these specific areas but i don't think a guy should ever pass them while on there way somewhere else.

[Jrbhunter]

  I think Eastern hunters would be wise to drop some of those theories developed in the desert.  While there are similarities there are massive differences as well... mainly in population and pack structure.   Also the size and quantities of those "Safe-houses" are much different than they are in the East.  The type of pressure is very different as well, Arizona competition callers hit a spot and pre-condition the survivors to the threat... Kentucky deer hunters freak out every coyote with inconsistant impact on their populations and structure.

  The number of stands I mentioned was only an example, a ratio that explains my success in a days calling is better spent on coyotes that haven't been drilled into submission.  I have no problem calling a coyote where I killed one the day before... that's not the level of pressure we're talking about.  The level of pressure required to kick a coyote off his home turf and into hiding will alter his entire lifestyle, he actually begins altering that daily schedule long before he packs his bags.  I suspect the areas that you mention "Consistantly" calling pressured coyotes are areas that hold those who haven't quite decided to throw their territory and livlihoods out the window in the name of survival.  Many of the places I hunt, and I assume what Jimmy is talking about, are forest that you couldn't walk far enough in to call 9 coyotes in day.

  When dealing with those types of reduced numbers- and faced with the same amount of available time to make stands- I've just found it more productive to crank out stands for those coyotes who haven't begun to shut down all normality in life.   I'm not speaking hypothetically as you guys seem to imply... this isn't foriegn language to me as I do hunt "a little". 

Sure- hit those spots if you walk past them... but I wouldn't plan my day around an area that I know holds coyotes that haven't slept or ate comfortably in weeks.  Yes by theory it sounds like a great way to manipulate coyotes- I've beaten my head against that wall a few times and just thought I'd share the results.  Heck, you guys killed more than I did out west so your advice is probably more sound for Eastern coyotes too... 

[Greenside]

"I already know coyotes use escape routes just like deer. But can we predict that movement ? "


Sure you can, but the route is not important. It's the destination!!

[stevecriner]

I think Eastern hunters would be wise to drop some of those theories developed in the desert.  While there are similarities there are massive differences as well... mainly in population and pack structure

Yeah they have the numbers but that is something that is always brought up. I think its irrelevant. I'm not from the east really so i couldn't say but the theories really are consistant here. Same animal,same comfort zones, same pressure, did i say same animal...Yes differences are present but not circumstantial IMHO.

I suspect the areas that you mention "Consistently" calling pressured coyotes are areas that hold those who haven't quite decided to throw their territory and livelihoods out the window in the name of survival.  Many of the places I hunt, and I assume what Jimmy is talking about, are forest that you couldn't walk far enough in to call 9 coyotes in day.

Your right I don't have any hardwoods here and  No deer hunters ,road hunters, callers,hounds, no snickers rappers, piss, dung from drunk deer hunters,Polaris rangers, bowhunters,squirrel hunters, coon hunters, farmers with guns and there wifes ,nothing. I don't have pressured coyotes for sure. See now we are back to the north,south,east ,west ,midwest stuff.  I know the numbers have alot to do with how many stands you call coyotes in on,but bottom line is we still all call coyotes. There are alot of places we call that coyotes don't here us even, but i know in AZ just about every stand a coyote will here ya. Thats the only difference in my eyes. Which honestly makes it tougher.

Yes i don't think a guy should cut his areas down to these specific areas but i don't think a guy should ever pass them while on there way somewhere else.

Sure- hit those spots if you walk past them... but I wouldn't plan my day around an area that I know holds coyotes that haven't slept or ate comfortably in weeks.

Some of us have to and chose to. Just a way of life for some that don't have the access.

I'm not speaking hypothetically as you guys seem to imply... this isn't foreign language to me as I do hunt "a little".  

Yes we know. And i think you are a very knowledgable  hunter and also are able to put in this into words alot better than most which is more understandable than some which is a plus cause I'm slow ,  but i think your letting the big set of horns you always mention cast a big shadow over your coyote hunting side. I do believe that a coyote can be run out of a place scared to death. But when he gets to where hes going he is still a coyote. I guess i just have not witnessed a coyote shut down all the normality of life due to pressure.  Like i said before,  Quote,"I'm just making this up. END QUOTE   Gary Clevenger.

P.S.  

I'm not speaking hypothetically as you guys seem to imply... this isn't foreign language to me as I do hunt "a little".  

You know the more i think about it i wonder. Why would you even say this. Why would you think we thought that. You prolly been huntin longer than me. Besides im self proclaimed!! I just thought i would throw that out there.

Sure you can, but the route is not important. It's the destination!!

Yes well put. I agree totaly...