Howling the Hell out of them

KillerCaller! · October 05, 2007, 12:59:31 PM

To tell the truth KeeKee I have never been at the receiving end of a PH. How far? Far enough on a good day! When the wind is up maybe not enough ooomph.
Sound quality as to loudness? I may not be answering this the way you expected because I am at work and typing and thinking too quickly but...
When I get back home I may have a better answer!
The latex howlers seem to have a leg up on the reeded calls just for pure ease of use. It all depends on who's at the receiving end of the call that counts. What sounds good and loud to me at the time may sound like hell 100 yards out. The coyotes and fox I have called in with the Killer Call tell me that it sounds pretty damn good. The Power Howler as well. I have a Hogsback acrylic call that is loud as hell sounds decent but I have yet to call anything in with it in 2 years.
The loudness and sound quality on the electronics leave a lot to be desired to me. They work well enough but it seems from the ones I have used and heard they seem a bit one dimensional in the sound. If I had more experience with e-calls I could answer more in depth. I like the pure sound of a quality hand call better but that's just me. More to come when I get home........ Maybe.

QuoteHow far do you think that Power howler reaches?

It depends on conditions and topography, of course. Higher pitched sounds don't travel as far as lower pitched sounds so it depends on that as well. In prime conditions in my area maybe 1/4 to 1/2 mile, maybe.

QuoteAnd how much do you think sound quality matters compared to how loud the call is?

Sound quality is sound quality. Most calls have limits, if you exceed those limits quality diminishes. A call that is loud and good is better than a call that is not loud enough and good. I can tone it down and call softly on a naturally loud call and retain the quality but can't make a medium call louder than it is and retain quality. Unless, as Greenside brought up, I carry around a pretty cheerleader's megaphone.

QuoteAlso how do you compare electronics volume compared to the loudness of a hand call?

Not having used or heard all e-calls available on the market I would not know exactly. From the ones that I have heard, certain hand calls would blow them out of the water and others maybe not. Quality is there on many I have heard but lacking in others.

QuoteAnd the sound quality of a electronic call compared to a hand call? (Coyote Vocalization)

I really don't like coyote vocalizations on e-calls. They sound a bit phony to me, I don't know why.
If you set an e-call, a hand caller and a real coyote out in a field 9 out of 10 people could probably pick the hand caller and e-caller out as fakes. Why? Nothing beats good old fashioned soft tissue for making howls. Some calls and callers are better than others so it depends on who it is and what they are using.
Just my opinion. KC Smothers Brother

keekee · October 06, 2007, 04:26:13 AM

Good answers KC!

What about the rest of you guys? What your thoughts on these questions?

Brent

canine · October 06, 2007, 12:00:16 PM

What was the question?

JD

Brad H · October 06, 2007, 02:14:12 PM

Never used a power howler but I've sat next to one in use and they do sound very good. I'm sure it it could be heard a mile or more on a dead calm 0 degree December morning here. But any wind at all will cut that down fast.

"And how much do you think sound quality matters compared to how loud the call is?"
It matters a lot to me anyway. Sounds need to reach way out there in this country a lot of the time, so I like a howler that won't fade out, lock up, or break up when both lungs are put to it. I want the sound to be as good at full air pressure as it is with half. I'm a firm believer in "the louder the better" as long as the call is tuned properly.

"Also how do you compare electronics volume compared to the loudness of a hand call?"
Again, concerning coyote vocalizations, the only howls I've used from electronics is out of a WT, but I don't think any hand call can match the volume. But if you want to compare the WT to a real coyote....it fails miserably.

"And the sound quality of a electronic call compared to a hand call? (Coyote Vocalization)"
Still just WT, but the sounds are much better by comparison even at max volume. But this is where my complaint with electronics is. The electronic howling loops my caller has are of course, programed and repetitious. I don't think coyotes distinguish repetition whatsoever, so it works fine, but it's just not that fun. Sure there's lots of different variations available on the machine, but they're still just repetitious howls. It's just a personal preference thing, but I use my howler for everything from cottontail sounds to long range howling. It makes it more fun to be able to mix it up.

Brad

THO Game Calls · October 06, 2007, 03:39:37 PM

I am curious why a loud call is so important, or why so many think it is important?

A coyote can hear far better than we can. So why is volume such a consideration in a hand call? How many tmes have you lip squeaked a coyote in from 100 or 200 yards out? They have great hearing. Unless the wind is blowing your sound off behind you, is volume in a hand call really that im[ortant?

In a howler, I think volume does only one thing - makes the coyote think you are much closer than you might otherwise be and invokes an agressive teritorial response - ala the Bill Martz Theory of howling with his WT caller. But what does that do to the subordiante coyotes? What kind of response do you think it imparts in them? I've seen coyotes react to the WT caller. I remember on big - really big - one that came in hot and fast looking for a fight, and another that just barely showed itself on the far edge of a field and stood around very nervous.

Now, this is all based on hunting where I hunt. I dont hunt places where you can see them coming from 5 miles away - an exageration but you understand my point. I do however hunt one large area of about 10,000 acres that is all fields and small wood lots joined by fence rows and creek bottoms. If you howl there, you best be ready to sit a good long while because if they are coming, they are going to wind there way to you through the avalable cover and it may take awhile. If you go moving, they will see you and be gone. (expereince is a hard teacher)

So I think your calls, especially when it comes to volume, have to be tailored to the type of counrty you hunt, and the coyote population as well.

Al

browning204 · October 06, 2007, 09:10:25 PM

I actually was thinking the same thing the other day when I did a quick stand for Fox. I think I will try my distress sounds at a lower volume for a while. I will try not to give the 200 pound rabbit impression. Maybe that will allow the less dominant ones to feel a little more at ease to respond. That coyote on the field edge that you are talking about Al, I think that is more than often what we deal with around here.

I am also gonna try more bird distress this season to.

Brad H · October 06, 2007, 11:11:50 PM

Out here in this wide open badland country the coyotes are quite a reach and not easy to get to. I'd have to pass on a lot of stands without the volume to reach out there. On a calm day about anything will work, but if there's any wind at all chances of getting sound to those coyotes quickly diminishes when trying to get sound 1/2 mile or more away. A calling partner 50 yards down wind and over the next hill will only hear flashes of the sound a lot of the time, so a lot of volume is necessary to break through the wind and contour of the land here. Howls I crank up, distress sounds I start less than what I think I need and try to get by with the lowest setting I think I'll need. Last year I had a rabbit or skunk sound turned up to cut the wind and a young coyote slipped in right up to the juniper looking for the speaker under the tree. I saw a tail then had to wait for him to come back around to shoot him. He never saw it coming...I don't think he found the speaker either but the high volume didn't phase him. I don't use the aggressive howls on that caller. I like the younger female ones best. I shut off the howls when they get inside 100 yards, I didn't notice any aggressive nature with the singles it howled in, but I'm sure the February pairs were looking to fight it out. I hope that explains high volume use a little. It's just the nature of the beast here. But I've had nothing but good luck with it.

Brad

THO Game Calls · October 07, 2007, 07:00:38 AM

I figured that was what you were going to say Brad. And I understand it a bit but only having seen pictures and videos it makes it hard to relate too.

Here, a high volume from an E caller will cause echos in the small dips and valleys. It just does not sound natural. I can't remember too many hand calls causing that effect through. THe howler I got from you will do it in places as will some crow calls, but the distress calls all seen to fall short of creating the echo.

Calling tatics are extreemly dependant on where you live and hunt, at least in my opinion. And as a call maker it reallly helps to hear what guys need and want in a call when they hunt in a place different than you do. It also helps to take calls outside and blow them. They sound a lot different in the woods than they sometimes do in the shop.

One of these days I am going to go set my digital vocie recorder up at the range at different distances to see what my calls sound like 50 yards to 200 yards away. I can get out on our 3 D archery course during the week and put it in the woods and then call from one of the stakes to see how the trees and brush affects the sound. I bet that will show some interesteing information.

I'm also curious as to why a coyote, which can hear a mouse scratching undrer 2 feet of snow is not bothered by an extreemly loud distress sound comng from a speaker, and as many of us have seen, will even sometimes come right up next to the speaker and not seem to be bothered by the volume. It does not seem to hurt their ears or even sound unnatural to them, or so it would seem.

Al

KillerCaller! · October 07, 2007, 09:30:22 AM

THO, as a callmaker and hunter I am sure you know this, but just because you have a call that is inherently loud does not mean you have to lean into it each and every time. The volume is there if you need it but most of the time, with me atleast, the calling is at medium to high volume, not LOUD. As I said earlier though, I like to have the extra there if I feel I need it.
I carry a BUNCH of calls on me when hunting so I use calls that are mouse squeak low, bird singing soft to calls that are HellFighter loud. Again, what is considered loud to my ear may not make it past the next line of trees. Also, I find myself calling much quieter at night than in the day as the echo effect seems much greater at night.
I have called medium for 15 minutes and then called, what I consider loud for 5 more minutes and had coyotes and fox show. Did they come in to the medium calling and just happen to show up when I got loud or did they show up because they could finally hear it? I don't know, but I do know that the 245 lb rabbit didn't scare them off.

FinsnFur · October 07, 2007, 10:09:06 AM

245 lbs

THO Game Calls · October 07, 2007, 12:06:49 PM

When someone ask how important is volume in a call, the answer must be tailored to what the caller is trying to achieve, which in many cases is determined by the type of terrain the caller is calling in.

Volume can only do three things for us.

One, buck the wind, two, reach way out there to draw in coyotes from great distances and three, create the illusion of proximity to the coyote, which is sometimes related to number two,

We have to keep in mind that coyotes hear far better than we do, far better than we can probably imagine they do.

When trying to buck the wind and reach way out there, volume is necessary to overcome the environment we are calling in. In this case, we need to take into account the environmental conditions that we have no control over, and volume becomes very important. But we also need to understand that not all places where coyotes are called are subject to these conditions. And therefore, depending on what we are trying to achieve with our calling, volume may not always be a good thing.

When trying to create the illusion of proximity to a coyote, or making him think that dinner is RIGHT HERE, volume is the most important aspect of our calling. I don't think a coyote can put two and two together and say to himself "wow, I've been after this rabbit for over a mile now and I don't seem to be getting any closer than I was 10 minutes ago. I might be getting duped here". Instead, the coyote's response has been triggered by what he perceives to be a meal that is close by and he continues to respond until that stimuli goes away. Creating the illusion of proximity can be very effective when calling from a tree stand where you are going to be sitting for some time. The more coyotes you can reach the better, and since your are staying put you wont spook them by moving.

But what if you hunt small wood lots on the ground?

If a call is loud, it stands to reason that more coyotes will hear it than a soft call. If more coyotes hear the louder call, then it must also stand to reason that more coyotes will respond to that call.

We have to ask ourselves "Is that always good?" And I think the answer might be, "Not always"

When we hunt small wood lots or areas of dense cover, a coyote that hears a call from a long ways away and responds may take a lot longer to get to the call because of the terrain he has to navigate. If while he is on the way to our stand, we then decide to move to our next stand, and he sees or hears us and spooks, the chances of getting that coyote to respond again are greatly diminished. This might be why you often hear eastern coyote hunters say they are more successful sitting on stand longer than their western counterparts.

The point is, in the discussion of weather a loud call is good or not needs to be tailored to the specific response we want to create in a coyote based on the area we are hunting in and the tactics we are using.

When we wonder if coyotes can hear our medium or soft calls, ask why do we park our trucks a quarter of a mile or more away from our hunting stands, take great pains to not slam doors, make a lot of noise, or talk, and we sneak into our stands like snipers on a mission, if the coyote can't hear our calls anyway?

I remember laying in the snow on a ridge about 300 yards from a deer yard one winter day watching for the coyotes that were raising havoc with the wintering deer. My hunting partner saw them before I did, and all he did was go "psst" to get my attention. The lead coyote stopped dead in his tracks and looked right at us. He was a good quarter mile away but he heard that sound.

They have phenomenal hearing.

Now, when it comes to calls, not all loud calls can be played softly, nor can all medium voiced calls be played loudly. Nor should we even try to play them that way. We should carry an assortment of calls that will meet the situations we are going to face in a day of calling. If we try to get by with just one type of call, we limit ourselves greatly.

Take Sceery calls for example. Some of them take a lot of air to play. You just cannot get them to play well softly. The Tally Ho is another call that is not designed to be played softly. Even the famous Tweety calls by Verminator come in two styles, long range and regular. Crit'r calls come in different volumes also, and the howler even has removable extensions to make them louder or softer depending on the situation. All which goes to show that reed thickness in both open and closed reed calls determines how a call will respond when blown. And not all reeds work with low air pressure, and not all work with high air pressure. Then there is barrel length, bore diameter and mouth piece design (of closed reed calls) which also play a huge factor in how well a call behaves when blown loudly or softly.

All I am saying is that we should not make blanket statements or ask questions that have no right answer. It does the new guys more harm than good.

I can't count all the guys who have wanted to go coyote hunting up here for he first time who showed up with 22-250's with 12 power scopes and 26 inch barrels on them because someone told them that was a good coyote gun. Might as well put a bayonet on the end of the barrel and stab the coyotes when they come in. On the other hand my 12 gauge might not be the best choice out where Brad hunts.

The same goes with calls. Everyone wants a loud raspy call, and most times up here, a loud raspy call is going to give you a lot of exercise except in your shooting finger.

And no I don't say this because I make calls and want to sell loud and soft calls. I say this because I have blown enough loud calls up here to know that unless I am going to sit on one spot for the day, volume is not the ticket for the thicket.

Al

KillerCaller! · October 07, 2007, 01:57:10 PM

Good post, THO. I guess I didn't read the post before last of yours all the way thru. I would love to hear the results of your voice recorder test.
Yes FnF, 6'2" 245 lbs. Not all of us have a petite figure.

It's a solid 245, not the dumpy Dough boy kind. Thanks.

Rich · October 08, 2007, 07:21:50 AM

"volume is not the ticket for the thicket."
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Very true. Back in the thick stuff, you are usually better off if you use medium volume for coyotes or bobcats. High volume causes too much echo I think.

keekee · October 08, 2007, 04:07:01 PM

I think THO hit the nail pretty much on the head. It depends on what type of cover you hunt more than anything.

We done some testing with the kee's howler and the power howler mouth piece. It can be heard allot further than you think just by the human ears. I know a Coyote can hear many, many times more than we can. With standard air pressure, I could hear the howler from over a half a mile away, with the leaves on the tree's. Day or night didn't seem to make any difference at all. At night we have had coyotes answer from several miles away many times. I cant see were one could need anymore than a couple miles no matter were you hunted.

The last trip out we were on a farm trying to get some coyotes to answer. When we went in we talked to the farmer and let him know wear we were going to be and what we were doing. We tired and got zero to answer. As we were leaving the farmer stopped me and JD and asked if we heard the coyotes, we said no. He was setting on the porch and could hear the coyotes answering the howls from down on the river behind us. It was far enough that we could not hear them responding. And was several miles behind us with all the tree's full of leaves.

I think the sound travels allot further then we think. How far, I'm not sure but a long ways. We called several coyotes last year out west in AZ in the thick cover, across washes, that came from a long ways off. With nothing more than coaxing sounds, from the Black Bird distress. We done the same thing here is Ohio, open areas and thick cover. This is not a loud call at all and it is high pitched, witch means it wont travel as far. These were all during the day and in late winter though.

I think the terrain has more to do with it than anything. Hills, valleys, ditches, washes, not so much the tree's and leaves. But we have called several here in the hills on gas and power lines that I know came from several miles away. And we don't have no small hills here....lol

As for the sound of vocalizations from a e- caller. We have done well locating with vocalizations from the FX5. But I will admit we don't use the e-caller much on stand for vocalizations, other than the testing we done for sounds. We both carry howlers on stand and would rather use them. Just personal preference I guess. The volume is nice though. We can crank the vocalizations on the e-caller and really reach out there with them.

I like all my sounds weather its a hand call or a e-caller to sound as real as I can get them, no matter what I haft to do. I think it does make a difference. I think all calls will call critters but I think a good caller can give himself a edge if you uses great sounds. Urgency, emotion, and death can be added to the calls to make them the best they can be and there not the same cadence all the time. And they are not repetitive as those on a e-caller. I not a standard turn on the e-caller guy and let it play. I will run multiple sounds on a stand weather its hand calls or e-callers.

I also start all my stands off soft. Even out west, I always start off soft and work my way up. In thick tight cover to me its a must!