I'm not sure if its the tone board, the fact the tone board is longer due to lanyard groove, or if its just a poor transition from the board to the call body, but I have noticed some real cherry calls as of late that lose a lot of eye appeal because of some of the new tone boards. It looks like a $35 call running into a $2 tone baord. Akin to putting a Tasco scope on your $1200 custom rifle or having Maaco paint your $65,000 rig for $300.
Is it just me?
nope I have seen it also. it is a double edged sword. for call makers that do not have the money to put into a die to sand there tone boards to shape this is a cheap alternative. they make a custom call body and then use a tone board that they know works and sounds good. It seems everyone is using the same one know though.
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I am not a big fan of those calls either. I have bought those toneboards to tinker around with, but that is it. They are very easy to use and they do produce great sounds. The real value in a call to me is the toneboard. A hand crafted one will fetch a better price from me.
I like a loud call, and I can't get the molded toneboards to the sound level that I like.
I understand the need to have tone boardds for non molders and makers, but is there a way to transition it, so looks a little better?
Hey Todd,
From a call makers side... re your first post:
No, it's not you. A fine handmade custom call does deserve a fine handmade toneboard too. Do I need to define "fine"? :eyebrownod:
When call users and collectors are willing to pay for above average calls, they should get just that, an above average call. But not for the prices I see most of the fine calls being sold for, including many of those with handmade toneboards.
Without dragging out all the reasons why, I think most of the new spinners using them are just trying to be practicle by using the cast/molded TB's.
L.
i take your talking about my call's. i choose to use them. not the ko one's. i didnt know they were worth less. i like them way better than delrin.they work great for my antler call's. Rick
I don't think anybody was referring to the calls made by anyone in particular Rick... I know I certainly wasn't. Just some broad comments about a valid concern by collectors and users. Cast/molded TB's do have their place and are a great timesaver for the call maker. Most of them sound quite well too.
But I do agree with Todd that a very well made call made from higher grade wood deserves a handmade toneboard to really be "special". L.
Well Rick "take it" all you want but as with many of your past assumptions........Your completely wrong. I think you lose more friends and make yourself look foolish because of your "They are picking on me" or "They are talking about me" mentality, which in most cases, isn't the case at all. Kinda like the fact that you don't visit this board anymore because you think someone here is picking on you, which again isnt the case, but its your overdriven sensativity, which hinders you again, not the ones around you.
Now with that said a lot of us enjoy your company here, and I have been doing nothing but complimenting you and how far you have come with your call building. The ONLY thing I saw with your calls that I didn't personally care for, and its just a matter of taste for me is, the bright colored tone boards you were putting with some of your nice calls. I haven't seen you do that in a long while either, but I thought since I was being open I would share that with you. So keep up the good work Rick. :congrats:
Now to your tone board statement. I'm not sure which ones you use and I'm not sure who makes the one or two I refere to. The only fella I knew was making tone boards was Steve Barbour, and I knew a few made them from Delrin (sp). I also don't know if the ones I refere to are worthless? They for sure work from what a few say and I don't doubt that, but stick a few of those in your nice horn calls with out a super transition and see how many you sell, or sell for a higher $.
I'll use Steves tone boards as an example. The only part of the one board ya really saw was the tone board itself, as the other end slid into the call and was held in place by a wedge. A lot of call makers have used them and they don't really distract from the call itself. Some of the current ones appear to have a collar at the insert end that are bigger in dia. and appear to be aout 3/4 to 1 inch long before it gets to the call/barrel. Just inserted in, it looks like a large piece of plastic stuck, into a piece of wood. Call makers spend a chunk of money on a nice stick of exotic wood, spend hours turning and finishing, and suprisingly stick a huge plastic $2 tone board in the end, with out any kind of transition work that might help the tone board blend to the call (Will this help? I don't know haven't seen one yet. )As a call buyer I'll tell you its the whole package that sells a call to me, not just the fancy barrel. If the tone board isn't properly married to the call its an insults to the call makers ability, and also an insult to the customers, that some one doesnt take enough pride in what they do, and then turns around and sticks a high $ price on a call that should go for $10 (Note: I can turn a crap load of fancy barrels, and just stick tone boards in them, but that doesn't make me a call maker) Heck why even turn the barrels, just have them made and finished too, and assemble them at home. :rolleye:
I have had this discution in the last week with another collector and a call spinner, both shared my view. What I was trying to get out was a suttle hint with out pointing any calls in particular out, and hoping that some would get the hints and that others of you might offer some transtional ideas. Regardless of what you may or may not think, I like to see more call makers and I like to see everyone excel at it. Will they? No, not if everyone keeps sugar coating or stroking egos evertime a call is posted, and not if your sensative about constructrive or honest input about your calls. Sometimes you call makers are your own worst enemies......a lot of you feel like you have to stroke one call makers calls, and in turn he feels the same obligation, which creates a snow ball effect for any new call maker joining. Don't believe me....visit PM Custom Calls, and another thing there that effects this is............the moderators/admin stroking new HOB call makers cause they feel obligated to because they charged them. I have seen some "This is my first call" post that were nice starts but the praise put them up there with the established greats, hence the $15 call for $40 on the next post "My second call ever".
The goal is to help the new spinners learn, and excel, and maybe pass tid bits of info onto each other to better the calls and the hobby. If your not down with this...........you'll just whither up and die with your calls like others.
Its in the hands of the spinners, collectors, and users to be forth-with.
Now that I'm done hi-jacking my own thread, is there anyone else that has noticed this or may offer some solutions for transition?
Oops! Sorry Larry, I do like custom tone boards too, and they add a premium to the call, but they are not completely necessary. (I do like my Krusty's though)
Be safe,
Todd
thank you Todd i dont visit the board. much becauce the last time i i went chat you were talking about my call's i got from. desert dog. and then you tell me that something i did wrong with ebay.. . i have done nothing to you .i tried to belong here but when i come i seen your stuff. Ladobe i have great respect for you you are one of the great callmaker's. i'm building i shop maybe i can do better with my call's. i dont want anybody to feel sorry for me. Rick
Rick again you reed more into what is said......Please feel free to tell the kind folks here what I said about your Desert Dog Calls? And please inlighten me too. And while your at please tell them what you did on Ebay that I pointed out to you. Ah heck I'll tell.
Rick posted some dandy calls on ebay, and by accident I came across one he miss titled, and couldnt be found through normal searches. So I simply did the kind thing and let him know. Again Rick sorry to try and help ya. If I recalled you thanked me and stated your wife mislisted it and that you would let her know. What ya didn't say was damn Todd your hurting my feelings.
"i tried to belong here but when i come i seen your stuff" Can you translate this for me please, just incase I have to clear another misconceptiom of yours.
And Rick I don't feel sorry for you, but you frustrate the crap out of me sometimes and I don't even know why I try with you. Your like a six foot giant always running from his shadow. Get over yourself and let folks be your friends and supporters, not your baby sitters with kid gloves on.
And don't give me that only crap.........................seen it hundred times at PM and your still running there even with the bad taste in your mouth you claim to have for that place............oh wait its about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ I'm sorry.
So Rick tough'n up a notch. Again this post was nothing about you, but I think the guys in the next room are talking about ya. :wink:
this will go on for ever. not going to deal with it. if you want to know every day of my life is not so fun. i'll go ahead and say it i have depression it is a bitch. if i have no friends so be it. all i can say for the thing's you have said about me. is mean people suck. you are not a very nice person .again Ladobe you Rock as a callmaker. Rick
I don't think Todd's a mean person, Rick. He's just trying to help by shooting you straight, and letting you know how he and a lot of other people see things. He made some pretty good points that might help you out in the long run.
I don't know what can be done abut that transition with those toneboards, Todd. I know exactly what you're talking about though. I never have messed with any of the available toneboards, so I don't know much about them. I learned from the school of Rich Cronk and never have strayed from that style.
Brad
sorry BradH it come's across pretty harsh to me .doing the best i can. the toneboard's fit my style of calling. on the springbok call's. i pay 3.00 a piece for them. i havnt turned a call in 2 month's. when the shop get's done thing's will be more custom. Rick
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/bearmanric/ebuys002.jpg)
dont feel to great right now. feel's great inside right now knowing every one hate's you. that's all i have to say. Rick
I have allways liked your calls. the tone boards that I was talkin about are the tone boards that have three pieces to them and when assembled have a huge gap between the stopper and the toneboard it self. the wood work looks awesome but the tone board seems to take away from the call. rick the springbok calls and the howlers look great them tone boards even though you bought them still seem to fit. I have several calls that have molded tone boards in them. I have a ozark mtn howler from arky yoter. the tone board is molded but still is nice looking along with sounding. I also have a kat kaller and a yote puppy. both are great calls and I did not pay much for them. I know arron sparrow uses a three piece open reed but it still is blended in and looks great. I also have a TT furball. kinda resembles one of your calls but it has a molded tone board that flows into the wood bell. it sounds good and is easy on the eyes. another one is THOs calls. I have two a coco open reed and a acrylic open reed. both look great and sound good. but the tone board is cut and shaped.
I was actually wondering where you have been rick I have not been over there at that place much. I will probably be over there less now that I caught hell from another member over there. just keep on makin good calls and people will buy them. I cut back a good bit over summer but am gettin the itch again.
Fellers let me appoligize for digressing and Rick let me appoligize to you for my public back lash, and again I meant every thing I said about you and your calls Rick. Maybe just learn to ask if you think your being picked on or talked about. So again "No" I wasn't talking about your calls, nor you. I have never said anything but nice things about your products and that will continue. When I was told you weren't coming here anymore because someone was picking on you, I wasn' told it was because of me, and disputed the fact that you were being picked on and explained that we enjoyed having you here. Again I'm sorry if you misunderstood.
Rick that is not the type of tone board I am refering too.
I use molded guts. I tried making my own out of wood and plastics, even though the sound was ok I just was not happy enough with them to use them in a call I was selling. I will make my own sometime but right now my "shop" time is limited and I use it to make "barrels".
Here are a couple I made last night.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/PAyotehunter/NewFinish007.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/PAyotehunter/NewFinish010.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/PAyotehunter/NewFinish014.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/PAyotehunter/NewFinish015.jpg)
what kind of wood is that open reed? lookin good. what is the other wood also.
Ben,
The open reed is made from Bocote and the other is Big Leaf Maple.
Aaron
Sorry fellas my last post was shorted to due me being the school bus. :biggrin:
At any rate Brad and Larry thanks for the replys.
I can't show a picture of the tone board I refere to with out having someones barrel at the end. :innocentwhistle:
Hey Aaron, thats not the type I refere to but we have talked in the past about how those transition to the call body better, when the barrel is slowly tapered away.
I was wondering and not sure what he uses or how he does it, but Kee has a transition on is howlers that may work with the bigger collared tone board. It looks like a thread or some type of metalic wrap. Now I wonder if you covered the collar with that and carried it over to the body, if it wouldn't cover the gap and transition the call as a whole?
PS Rick I still would like you to clarify the "Desert Dog Calls" comments if you don't mind, because you left it, it implies that I had something extremely bad to say about the call or calls you got?
I will have to post a pic of the last howler I made. the transition is good but you can see glue. I am unsure as to what the thread that kee uses.
The posts starting with and regarding the call you want made Ben, have been moved into their own topic.
Titled Bens custom order
:wink:
thanks.
By the way Aaron I like the call on the left. :shck:
Thanks, Its super loud.
What do you like about it?
What about the open reed?? :innocentwhistle:
Aaron
Well I like the over all call, but its probably the wood that really catches my eye on that call. :biggrin:
No, nothing wrong with the second call....................the wood and grain just don't jump out at me I suppose, but the shape and style are fine, and that particular tone board isn't of the type that, initiated my post. :wink:
Ok thanks, just was curious on your thoughts and opinion.
That closed reed is gonna have to go on my lanyard. It sounds great but was too wet and is changing shape daily. :madd:
Its taking on a banana shape today. :rolleye:
Aaron
I see a lot of things going down hill in the custom call business. :argh: Toneboards are one of them. If you think I'm going to pay damnert a half-a-days wage for one? KMA!!! :noway:
It's almost like someone buying a new car & putting on a fancy grill & saying "Hey I got a customized car!" Well, does he or doesn't he? :shrug:
As for Ricks toneboards moulded or not they work & I know that Rick gets me the sound I want.
Hey "V",
Thanks for replying, and I agree with ya as you can see. Ain't nobody disputing Ricks calls but Rick at this time, as again I agree with ya on his calls. Just a little mix up thats all.
I seen a call a budy made today that had one of the tone boards in it, and I'll ask him if I can use the pic. Not disputing the quality or sound, just the bulky plastic look it adds to a nice wooden barrel.
After giving this a little more thought, :wo: :confused: I've come to the conclusion that I expect the custom calls I want to be artsy, ya know, a work of art or unique in some way. So I guess what I really want is a functional piece of art & guess this is were I get perturbed w/ a lot of the call making. Not that anyone is really making a bad call, but there is some going onward in this area that can be done. :innocentwhistle:
Do I need to elaborate more or do I have you call makers pretty well to the point that ya don't care to hear any more? :shrug:
I would like ya to elaborate, if ya don't mind and I won't be shy about joining.
I think call makers don't mind hearing I just think some don't care to participate in this type of conversation, for the simple fact that they might offend someone and in some case think they may effect the sale of their calls? :confused:
I would like you to elaborate more.
I realize different people like different things and I like to make calls that appeal to all. I would much rather make TRUE CUSTOM calls, made to order to someone elses specs, rather than make calls and hope someone will like them. Maybe some day I'll get to that point. :wo:
I was talking the other night with some people and this subject about molded guts came up. I was told my calls are not custom calls because of the molded tone boards. This came from a guy who makes his tone boards out of PVC pipe. :confused: Where do you draw the line on what makes a custom call custom? :shrug:
That got me thinking, I guess closed reed calls are not custom calls then either. I mean its the same thing as an open reed with a molded voice, a hand turned barrel with a production made reed stuck in it.
What's the difference? Is it because you can see the tone board on an open reed, or is it because we are sooo used to JC reeds being used in a closed reed? :shrug:
Aaron
PS
I'm gonna start fooling around making my own tone boards out of wood.
What are the best woods for making them out of ??
Thanks
No call maker worth his salt will back away from threads like this one just because he is afraid folks won't buy his calls. Sincere critique can be a very useful tool for a call maker, and he should welcome it. Not bitching and moaning, but honest critique.
Some of you know how little I care whether I ever sell another one of my custom calls or not. So I'll take the bait and run with it as a spinner regardless of how it is accepted here. If for nothing else, it will give all you call buyers plenty to "discuss".
Like it or not, call buyers themselves promote substandard calls from a lot of the new spinners. By passing out canned praise by the gallon on these predator forums, by continuing to buy those calls that are obviously broom handles, and by wanting high quality calls for cheap prices.
Canned praise has become almost a way of life on most of the predator calling forums. When a new spinners first calls are offered for sale and they get no critique at all and only a bunch of back slapping, it only serves to spur them on to producing more of the same, does not promote them to learn how to do better and maybe even that it is OK for them to raise their prices to boot. No doubt many of the new spinner's are pricing some also ran calls way too high, especially while still learning the craft and long before they have earned a name for themselves and their calls. Don't take that wrong, anybody should try making calls that is of a mind too, whether they have any prior craft talent of not. But they would certainly serve the craft and the sport better if they would get with a program to gain enough experience from T&E in woodcraft and field calling time to learn reed tuning so they can turn out at least average calls before they try to sell ANY of their work for ANY price.
Call buyers get to see hundreds if not thousands of hand made calls now days to choose from, and can buy only those they feel are well enough made and finished to be worth (to them at least) what the call maker is asking for them. If that's not a true buyers market, I don't know what is. So you in fact voice your opinion of a spinners work even in silence by not buying calls you feel are not of the quality you prefer or are not worth the asking price. To any spinner who can read between the lines, calls that just don't sell should tell them they either need to step up the quality of their work, or lower the price for what they are producing.
So what's a fair price? What a spinner is willing to take and what a buyer is willing to pay I guess. In the predator call field anyway, custom call making is mostly a break even venture at best and still with low to no wages for the time and investment involved. Do predator call makers who in fact turn out exceptional calls and have earned their reputation deserve less than like spinners who make fine duck calls for example? NO! But as a newer form of hunting by mostly hard working everyday folk, the predator calls just don't bring as much as duck calls do to the so called more upper brow duck hunter crowd. Or do predator call makers deserve to get less for their time than anyone else does doing whatever it is they do for pay? NO! They've made a huge investment in equipment, expensive wood and supplies, given up free time with family and friends, and the good ones spent countless unpaid hours perfecting their skills. If they make quality calls, they certainly deserve a fair hourly wage. I try to be more than fair when I set my prices. But out of principle as a long time call maker who has paid his dues I'm not going to spend several hours or more over 3-4 weeks finishing a call just to sell it to what is basically a stranger for $20-$30. If folks want one of my calls they will pay the toll I have set for it, simple as that.
Other than having strong personal ethics, that luckily many of the new spinners have, why should they go through the extra time and expense to produce truly high end calls when the buyers won't pay a fair price for them anyway? For some of that canned praise?
As custom predator call buyers you are in luck though, because most of the better call makers don't do it just for any money they might make. They do it because they enjoy woodworking and building calls for other predator hunters, do the extra research and work to keep learning and understanding more to constantly improve their calls and will accept less for their time and talents to help promote the sport. Calls made by these craftsmen are the ones you should be buying, and you should be paying them more for them IMO.
Have fun,
Larry
Well said Larry!
Brent
I hope you guys will pardon a newcommer for jumping into this coversation. Todd's remarks stuck a cord with me because I too share his observations. I consider myself a hobby call maker and I've been lurking about on this site and others for the selfish purpose of gaining knowlege and tips from those with more experience.
I don't try to sell my calls. And I don't intend to until I have gained enough skill to produce top quality open reed distress calls and howlers. Right now, I'm struggling to consistantly machine my tone boards out of Delrin. It's hit and miss, but I'm having fun and learning a lot.
When I fiirst started I considered buying the tone boards. It would be easier, cheaper, and I could impress my friends quicker. But when I slowed down from turning pretty barrels from fancy wood, I reliized that on a predator call the mouth piece or tone board WAS THE CALL. Yeah, the barrel adds to the tone and volume, but so does your cupped hands. I mean let's face it; without the tone board all you have is a fancy napkin holder.
I also agree about the praise. We all like to show off our calls and have everybody oooh and aww, but between call makers and wanna-be's we should focus on honest critique. I want to hear what you like about a call and even more importantly what you don't like.
So here's a couple of mine. Rip me up!
Randy
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/RJL54/Charcoal.jpg)
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/RJL54/OsageOpenReed.jpg)
Nothing wrong with those babies. Very sleek looking. :highclap:
Quote from: rjl54 on January 25, 2007, 07:04:36 PM
I mean let's face it; without the tone board all you have is a fancy napkin holder.
Good one! :roflmao:
The only thing I am interested in is DOES IT CALL IN WHAT I'M HUNTIN. Looks are secondary to me.
If it calls in the critters AND looks good, well, thats a bonus.
Welcome aboard Randy. :wink:
Quote from: rjl54 on January 25, 2007, 07:04:36 PM
... a hobby call maker ...
... I realized that on a predator call the mouth piece or tone board WAS THE CALL. ...
...Yeah, the barrel adds to the tone and volume, but so does your cupped hands. I mean let's face it; without the tone board all you have is a fancy napkin holder...
Randy
Welcome to the group Randy. Pull up a chair - there are some really good people here.
Hope you don't mind, but I'm going to use your post to make some points. Please don't take any of them as anything personal.
I can pretty much guaranty everyone that all custom predator call makers are "hobby" call makers. Either that, or they eat dirt for nourishment. None of them are making their sole living from it.
While the reed system, whether it be enclosed/open or commercial/custom made is a key element in the final range of sounds that can be produced with it in a given call, it is not the entire call. Even commercial toneboards/reeds (calls) have at least a rudimentary sound chamber. More importantly, the material it is made from and the sound chamber design itself greatly increases the range of sounds that can be produced with that same reed, both in tonal quality as well as volume. Plastic/rubber gets you by on a commercial call, even with their simple sound chambers. But the most versatile calls with the best range of sound qualities are the ones made out a material or species of wood that enhances tonal quality with an appropriate sound chamber designed for that material or wood used. Don't know about you folks, but I haven't seen any Stratovarius violins made out of plastic or rubber. Cupped hands mostly direct the sounds path making it appear to increase the volume because in funnels it into a narrower path at first (same as a calls "bell"), but your hands are not a good conductor of resonance that improves either the tone or amplifies it like other materails do.
And herein lies the main "reasons" why spinners make custom calls, and predator hunters buy them. Sure, in the right hands and in many scenarios a $5 store bought plastic wonder will call predators nearly as well as a full blown custom call costing anywhere up to 200 times more will. So a large part of what is being bought in a custom call is just pride of ownership – no different than when buying a new rifle, new car, new house, etc. Pride in the sounds it will produce, pride in the craftsmanship and beauty of the call. For some folks their pride is satisfied with the commercial calls, for some calls with commercial inserts are fine, and for others only so called 100% hand made calls will do. It's a personal thing, and no one should fault anybody for buying what they choose.
I've mentioned the reasons before why I think many spinners use molded tone boards. So I'll add some thoughts on the commercial reed inserts for enclosed reed calls this time. As one who had to make his own internal reeds for many years out of literally everything except the kitchen sink because no commercial reeds were available... I can assure you only a crazy person would still do it. Takes a lot of time and the percentage that end up working as consistently well is not 100% even on a good day. And they don't hold up anywhere near as long as the ones available today commercially do. So its an easy choice for a spinner to stick a 40 cent reed in his call that he knows he can tune, he knows will hold up for his customer, rather than fool around making his own. Keep in mind as the users of these "custom" calls... when you get miles out into the calling fields those beautiful call bodies ARE JUST NAPKIN HOLDERS if you have a reed fail - if you don't have easily obtained spares on hand that you can change yourself on the spot with no tools. So having been there and done both, I don't feel my using JC reeds takes anything away from any enclosed reed custom call I build.
QuoteLooks are secondary to me.
Yeah I said that too Semp when I was younger... that is until I woke up in bed the next day after an especially wild party in the mid 60's lying next to a female creature that literally scared the living daylights out of me (Quasimodo's twin sister). :shck:
L.
Good stuff Larry. While we share some of the same thoughts, your sure more snazzing speak'n then me. :congrats: :congrats:
Good points Ladobe. I guess I can admit my remarks contained exaggeration as I was trying to stress my desire to make good tone boards. I'll even concede the barrel is an important componet. I enjoy exploring how different woods, different wall thickness, and different shapes effect tone and volume. But on an open reed call I still hold that the mouth piece is large part, a dominating part, of that type of call.
The closed reed comparison, in my opinion, is not a fair one. (Seriously, I'm awed that you actually made your own :bowingsmilie: I thought in the old days they just cut the sqeekers out of dolls :innocentwhistle:) I'll bet you don't just buy a JC product reed and poke it in the call body. You probably spent alot of time learning to blade, file, and sand the reeds to make them sound the way you want them to. I've messed with them just enough to know the call body design can effect not only the sound, but how easily they blow. With the open reed your design dictates these factors.
Randy
Hey RJL,
Welcome to the board. Sorry I haven't commented on your calls, but at work I can't see them yet. :madd:
Some of the earlier calls I have, have brass reeds secured to the tone board with string. Neat stuff.
Aaron I had a big reply about the delrin and PVC, and the custom call question, but it got lost and at entry and I just wasn't up to retyping it. I'lll try again later.
Idea: Maybe Al's tips for refining his crow call inserts, would snazzy up the open reed tone boards?
Well, I have sat back and watched this thread for some time now...... I suppose I will add my thoughts/observations/opinions, while they will certainly not be as eloquently spoken as some, I will endeavor to express myself. Please be mindful of the fact I am just a dumb old hillbilly....
When I began attempting to learn to make calls, I started with enclosed reed calls. I used JC Products reeds (and still do). While my first calls were even more rudimentary than my present attempts, they were functional. I can still remember the first coyote I called in with a call I created with my own hands....and somewhere, I still have that ugly little call.
After attaining some meager amount of skill with this type call, I began to aspire to learn to make open reed calls. I spent many hours in countless attempts to make tone boards from delrin, acrylic and a veritable plethora of other available materials. I would make one that was good, and the next three would have several hours time invested, just to find they were unacceptable.
It was at this time I met Steve Barbour. Steve had began to mold tone boards of his own design, and they wee nothing short of fantastic....they still are....and they were consistant....every one was a good as the last. I began to buy tone boards from Steve for my open reed calls.
Over a period of time, I made many tone boards form wood or delrin, and began to be somewhat more successful. It was then I began to experiment with silicon molding, and molding my own designs. I still experiment with regularity with designs, as I am never content with the status quo...but I have one or two of my own with which I am very nearly satisfied.
At any rate, I still make my own tone boards, and they are molded. I do not feel as if my calls are less because of this feature, nor do I feel they are more. I do agree that to a large extent, the tone board is the major factor creating the quality of sound.
I have of late began experimenting with an injection molded tone board assembly, and I like it very much as well. I guess when using these "inserts" I am in fact just making napkin holders, but I am happy with the outcome. They call varmints, and I like them.
I do not claim to be a master at this craft, or any other....I don't even claim to be competent. I have much to learn.
Now for the matter at hand...I think there are many reasons why one would use a commercially created tone board, not the least of which is the ability to shorten the learning curve. It yields consistency and alleviates many countless hours of frustration...
The tone board in question is sold by several folks, including KO Predator Solutions. It does in fact have a good sound and is easily tuned. It is somewhat ungainly in appearance, but effective.
I have no doubt that Todd had pure intentions with this post, meaning no harm to anyone. I sincerely hope I haven't stepped on any toes with this reply, as that was not my intention.
RLJ, I think you are off to a good start!!
Carry on men, I am watching and learning.....
Joe
Fellas, I forgot to thank you for the warm welcome and nice comments. I'm interested in your collective opinion concerning glued in toneboards vs. friction fit. I'll start another thread for that. Right now, I have no preference but I'm itching to know what you guys think.
Randy
Todd,
Retype it pleeeeeeease, I'm interested in what you have to say.
That's a good idea but it may only make it look better, it would still be the dreaded molded tone board.
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I'm unsure it would be worth it to make my own tone boards, rewarding.....yes, worth it....I don't think so.
I'm fairly new to call making and right now I'm trying to make NICE field calls, I'm not looking to set the world on fire. :shrug: I love making calls and can make them pretty quik. I would rather make a few with molded tone boards in one night than hope to finish one with making the tone board in the same amount of time.
I don't feel the market for high end custom predator calls is there and therefor at this time I'm not going to spent countless hours perfecting my tone board making skills and hope that my "artwork" will sell, and at a price where I will at the least break even.
The way predator hunting is growing the market may change and who knows maybe I will too. :shrug:
Maybe I'm looking at this whole thing from a different angle but I have been predator hunting a little better than half my life and I never met a fox or coyote that cared about tone, pitch, sound chamber construction, or resonance. whether it be enclosed/open, commercial/custom, or any variation of them, as long as it sounds like something in distress it will work.
Sorry if I offended anyone
Aaron
You can choose quanity or quality. If you want to produce income, quantity is the way to go. Nothing wrong with proven toneboards, they work, and sound good, or they wouldn't have been produced in the first place.
In my opinion if you want to sell a custom call it should be your own work, end to end, good or bad.
Hey Joe, thanks for posting and thanks for noticing that my initial post isn't an attack. Its actualy heading where initially intended.
RJL, I'm at home now. :biggrin: Nice look'n call's. :congrats: If thats what your starting out at your going to be dangerous once you gain some experience.
Ok fellas this post NOTHING to do with the sound of the tone boards, but the bulking plastic looking tone boards, as the one Joe mentioned is made by KO and someone else metioned WoodsWise was making one just like it.
As I thought I mentioned, but maybe not. I'm not against molded tone boards, because I understand thier need. What I am pointing out is the bulk of several, and the way they are married to the call. Aaron my point, if you can make it look better, it won't just look like you stuck a "dreaded molded tone board" into the end of a possable $30 call.
It not that its delrin, pvc, or molded, but how it is presented. I thought Al's idea was a perty good one and thought if it gets rid of the molding signs and shines it up a little better, well theres one obsticle over come.
QuoteI have been predator hunting a little better than half my life and I never met a fox or coyote that cared about tone, pitch, sound chamber construction, or resonance. whether it be enclosed/open, commercial/custom, or any variation of them, as long as it sounds like something in distress it will work.
Your 100% right, but they are not your market. :confused: The market is the callers and collectors, or you wouldn't be trying to sell them, and there wouldn't be all this compatition between call makers to come up with the hottest/latest/newest call.
No body is offending and hopefully no one is being offended. What this is supposed to be is simple constructive information, that can be taken, or left.
I have a lot and have seen a lot of calls, I have seen call makers come and go, and I have seen call makers get mad because they couldn't sell a call, when some call makers were selling everthing they posted, and in some case had a waiting list. So what I try to do is approach subjects like this that some like to skirt, because it needs to be out there and discussed, and because I think it will better some things, generate ideas and spur growth.
Ladobe stated, that its the things between the lines that aren't said, that speak the most volumns, and I couldn't agree more, but not all hear or see that.
Why should some one buy a wooden barreled call with a tone board in it for $20-$50, when theres production calls like WoodsWise that are exatly the same for $12-$15?
I'm just trying to get the point across and seek suggestions and ideas, not badger or offend. If I have offended anyone please PM me, if you disagree and want to keep it private, please PM.
Todd
QuoteMaybe I'm looking at this whole thing from a different angle but I have been predator hunting a little better than half my life and I never met a fox or coyote that cared about tone, pitch, sound chamber construction, or resonance. whether it be enclosed/open, commercial/custom, or any variation of them, as long as it sounds like something in distress it will work.
So why should I pay 20, 30, 40 or more for a call that wont work any better than a 5 dollar Crit R Call?
Who here would take a CritR Call, Tweety, Primos Regulator or some other commercial call, measure the outside diameter of the barrel, drill a hole the same size in a piece of wood, glue it in there and call it a custom call?
Why wouldn't you? One of the big arguments for molded tone boards is Consistancy of Sound. Every CritRCall I have ever used, and I have used a fair amount of them, sounds just like any other CritRCall. I have a couple Tweetys, they sound just alike. Tally Ho's in different colors? Close your eyes and the yellow one sounds just like the whte, or red ones.
None of those calls have a "barrel" to speak of (and there is a reason for that) so you could do it easily. Would it be a custom call? Would you try to sell it as a custom call?
Why not? We have no problem using a commercial tone board, drilling a hole in that piece of wood, gluing it in there and accepting it as custom call. What is the difference? Really?
I really don't care if you use molded tone boards, some one elses hand made tone boards or ones from a commercial call. It that makes you happy, then go for it. Have fun and call coyotes to your hearts content.
But let me ask you this. When call maker A's custom call sounds just like call maker B's custom call which sounds just like call maker C's custom call, and the hunter wants something a little different, is going to take a chance on call maker D's custom call which uses the same molded toneboard as A B and C's custom call? And while it is very true that we all blow a call differently, I can tell a CritRCall from a Tweety, or a JS, or even from a Primos Regulator. And if I can tell the difference, do you think the coyotes can too? Do you think it makes a difference to the coyotes? How about to the hunter? I know that when I go out I take several calls with me that all sound a bit different. I don't hang 4 calls on my lanyard that all sound the same. Yet if call makers A B C and D all use the same tone boards, isn't this what they are trying to get the hutner to do? Load up his lanyard or call bag with several calls that all sound the same?
This thread got started with a simple question about perhaps doing something about the tansition of the call barrel to the tone board. I wrote Todd and told him that instead of worrying about the transition of the barrel to the tone board, we might be better served by concentrating on the transition from call builder to call maker.
There are a lot of call builders out there. Heck, when I started making calls, I was nothing more than a call builder.
What's the difference? Ladobe touched on it in his post. I'll add some.
I can change the sound of a closed reed call by working on the reed. I can blade it. crease it, file the edges, the end, bend the front of it up. I can make the bore 1/2 inch, 5/8 inch, 3/4 inch and each will have an effect on the sound and on how easy the call is to blow. I can make the barrel 2 inches long, 3, 3 1/2. 4 or even longer and each will have an effect on the sound. I can step drill the sound chamber or leave it straight. I can taper the mouth piece, make a longer mouth piece that allows the reed to be set deeper in the call, and each will have an effect on the sound.
Can a closed reed call be a custom call? Deffinately. And anyone who tells you otherwise is a call builder rather than a call maker. So now, when someone tells you that closed reed calls are not really custom calls because they all use the same reeds, you will know you are dealing with a call builder and not a call maker.
Now, take open reed calls.
What if the tone board itself is very wide, or very narrow? Will it effect the sound? One will let you use a wider air channel and a wider reed. What happens if the air channel is wide and deep? Will that effect the sound? What if the air channel is wide but shallow, giviing it the same area as a deep but narrow air channel on a narrow tone board? Which will be easier to blow? What about reed thickness? Shape? What about how the reed is seated in the tone board? What if it has an upward slant to it? What if it is seated a bit higher than the reed bridge? Do you even know what the reed bridge is? What if I sand the edges of the reed? What if I use a double reed?
The barrel of the open reed can be long or short, wiide or narrow. What effect will that have on back pressure? What is back pressure? How does it effect the sound and preformace of your call? Will it cause your call to have a pitch break? Most commercial calls do not have a barrel. Why? Because the molding process is not that percise. And if they were to put long barrels on them, they would probably have a good many calls with nasty pitch breaks because back pressure has an effect on the way the tone board works. But not only does the size of the bore make a difference, as does the length, but the way the call is designed to be held can make a difference. Your hands can cause back pressure and pitch breaks too.
What about the way the tone board is seated in the barrel? Glued in? Press fit? Plastic to wood glue in's are bound to fail. Press fit will either fall out over time or crack the barrel.
Call builders don't understand any of this. Worse, most of them just blow it off as the ramblings of a mad man.
But call makers do understand it, and use it to make custom calls.
Does it matter to the coyotes? They used to call them with scratchy old 78 RPM records. Old e callers had 8 to 15 second sound loops and still called coyoes.
So, if you are happy using molded tone boards, or sticking JC product reeds in a fancy barrel, go for it. Your calls are going to work, and you will sell a few and have fun.
But if you love to make calls, if you ever want to set yourself appart from the call builders, for what ever reason, give me a shout. I have over 6 pages of notes taken from various boards on making open reed calls. It will give you a start. And I can send you to the best article ever written on tuning JC reeds.
And finally, if you think I am completely crazy, or just some nut, ask yourself how it is that Rich Cronk and use PVC for the barrels of his open reeds, sell them for more than just about anyone, and sell everyone he makes. You think he would be able to do that if he was sticking a molded tone board in the end of a piece of plastic pipe?
I told Todd I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, and this will be all I have to say on it. I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone by this post.
Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com
I too make calls and sell just enough to keep my addiction satisfied. But even more so I am a user of good calls. I am also a student of coyote behavior, not as good as some fellas I know OF,but I am trying my damnedest to get where they are in knowledge.
Someone made th comment that the pitch or sound doesn't matter. I definately believe it does play a role. You make a call that sounds similar to what comes over the counter and yes, it will call coyotes. But how do they react to it. Do they come charging in or slipping around in the brush looking for a peek at what is making the racket. How do the other animals react to th call your using. Do the birds come in kama kaze style in your ears. DO the hawks and eagles make numerous passes to see thet critter? If you make a fawn bleat call, do the does come sneaking in or pissed as hell looking to kill something? If they come in at all !
Does the wood you use make a diference? Yes it does! You mate a good call design with the right woods and you have a magical tool .They will all work quite well, but there is a distinct diference in how animals react to th same call in two diferent woods.
A good call must not only work as intended but must have a pleasing balance to the eye of the buyer. It is he who dictates what we do in the long run. It must feel right in the hand and please the eye and ear. In the case of open reeds all this becomes even more important. Does it have a balanced look? How versatile is the call? Are you capable, as the builder, of making an open reed do anything but tapp dance in order to judge for yourself just how far you have progressed in your abilities. Does the tone board you buy to put in your calls meet the standards of such a caller?
As a user and owner of a great number of open reed calls, I am picky as hell ! I want the call to feel good in my hand and be capable of making as many sounds as possible. It cannot be cumbersome to use or be in the way.I have only one custom call makers open reeds on my string. I judge all others by his work, his are that good in my opinion. Some of these calls weren't worth the time it took to get them out of the package. Yes they are pretty and all of that, but they just aren't good enough.
So , you aren't just working to please yourself. Your working to please the most demanding buyer. You want me to own several of the same model just in case one does go down on me.Jimmie
We have touched on many aspects of the construction/creation/assembling of calls. I find merit in all forms...to me it actually depends on what hat you wish to wear, as we all cannot wear the same one all the time.
There are many aspects that guide us in our endeavors...desire, capability, ability, intelligence, skill, physical/mental attributes, finances, ego, personality, and a host of others. We generally use these things, in conjunction with life experiences, expectations, and situations with which to determine a direction, a "compass" if you will.
There are many kinds of "call creating" gentlemen, as there are also many kinds of call using gentlemen, some of which, overlap. There are many socio economic limitations placed on both...some folks use a plastic call because that's what they can afford....some because they simply like 'em.....and some because they may be successful with them. Others may even prefer them.
There are a few call making greats out there, very few... we are fortunate to have a few on this board, and the rest of us
can learn a great deal from their experiences and advice.
How do we become a great call maker? Is it skill with hand tools/machinery? Attitude? Pure old tenacity? Experience? Desire and ability? All of this and a whole lot more? "Aye, there's the rub."
I personally will most likely never become a "call maker." I suppose that would come under the guise of what parameters were used in this determination. Can I fashion a very good tone board from antler/horn/wood/delrin/acrylic/plastic, one at a time? Yes I can! Do I care to do that as a general rule? No I don't! Can I tune a closed reed from J.C. Products? Yes I can and do on every closed reed call I send out.
Does the above information make me an elitist... or sub-par.... or anything else? I certainly hope not, as I would find that disdainful. I do not believe that was the spirit in which this post was began.
So, now that we have this established, we must, as consumers, as well as providers, decide what it is that we desire. We must define success within the realm of our own station in life. If our heart's desire is a high end custom call, made by a true master, by all means....buy it!! Will it call more predators than all other calls....probably not, but if it makes you happy and content....if it fills a niche in your psyche, or you simply enjoy it, and you can afford it...go for it. I have a few calls from men such as these, and I love them....some are almost art. I am humbled each and every time I hold such a call, but I must I maintain one is no better or worse because he can either posses or create a call such as these.
I am content and happy with the calls I "assemble"... either from wood or plastic or whatever. I personally endeavor to be creative, innovative, and effective...I suppose the old adage is true, " Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
As I stated in my first post, I claim no expertise in this field or any other. I still have a lot to learn, and try to grow in ability every day.
My hat is off to you all...
Joe
Arky, neither you nor THO have ever been content with what you assemble. I have been watching you both for years and have seen the changes in both of you and your products. You two are continually searching for a better mouse trap . It's true that your goals are both diferent, but you are far from content. If you were content you would still be making the same calls time after time, year after year. But you are not.
It is the search for perfection that drives the best . Ideas of perfection vary from person to person but they are still there in each . That is what makes a call maker. And I would have to rate you and THO among them.
As users, if we don't speak up and be honest, how will the callmakers know when they are getting there? Do we continue to heap praise on the soso calls and let them collect dust on the shelf, leading others to believe they are getting the best out there? No , we are not being honest for fear of hurting their feelings. We let them carry on thinking they are on the right track.
I was totally honest with a good call maker once. Our conversations were all private and no one but us knew about them. He sent me a call and wanted to know what all that call could do and I told him .I haven't heard from him since.The call was intended to do it all and it could not. Was I supposed to lie to him and let him go happily on his way thinking he had it right? Was I supposed to jump on his bandwagon and praise this call to the masses so he could make some fast cash from them?
This fellow made his own choice and doesn't sell a lot of calls anymore. Folks talk among themselves and word gets out anyway after a few have plunked down their hard earned cash. That is a shame because he was very skilled with the tools and made some beautiful calls.
You have to take criticism as it is intended and learn from it. You cannot let your ego get in the way and ignore what others are telling you. And you also have to be your own worst critic . Jimmie
Great replies everyone. :congrats:
I have no problem saying that I am new to the world of call making and do not know as much as others when it comes to making tone boards, hell I'm not even the best caller out there. I will say that I have made usable cow horn howlers using the horn as my tone board, I have also made usable tone boards for open reed calls, and I also made a mouth piece design for a horn howler using a latex reed (sorta like an E.L.K. power howler) and it works!(see pic below) Like I said before, where I'm at right now it is not feasible for me to make my own tone boards.
In short, I guess I make what you could call.........Semi-Custom Calls, and I'm happy with being a "call builder" for now.
Latex mouth piece,top left cow horn.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/PAyotehunter/2ndShelf001.jpg)
2nd howler I made using horn as tone board.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/PAyotehunter/IMG_1940.jpg)
THO,
You have a LOT of questions there. I feel a lot of them may have been rhetorical questons but think some are directed at me. :shrug:
QuoteBut if you love to make calls, if you ever want to set yourself appart from the call builders, for what ever reason, give me a shout. I have over 6 pages of notes taken from various boards on making open reed calls. It will give you a start. And I can send you to the best article ever written on tuning JC reeds.
I would greatly appreciate any info you would send me.
slsaws2004@netzero.net
QuoteAnd finally, if you think I am completely crazy, or just some nut, ask yourself how it is that Rich Cronk and use PVC for the barrels of his open reeds, sell them for more than just about anyone, and sell everyone he makes. You think he would be able to do that if he was sticking a molded tone board in the end of a piece of plastic pipe?
Honestly.....yes I think if Rich started using molded tone boards they would still sell.
I truely believe there is more to selling calls for a good price than the call alone.
I have not taken offence to anyones posts, and hope no one has taken any from mine.
You all have very good points and are making me rethink my opinions of calls, call making, and call makers.
Thanks
Aaron
PS
Molded tone board or not, I would rather have this around my neck then a store bought production call.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/PAyotehunter/1-25-07008.jpg)
While we have digressed a little, I really like whats being said, and that the fact its remaing objective and constructive. At this point I think better information is being gleened, then the transition of a tone board.
QuoteHonestly.....yes I think if Rich started using molded tone boards they would still sell.
I truely believe there is more to selling calls for a good price than the call alone.
%110 correct........one thing that keeps me coming back for one is the spinner behind the call. Very good point Aaron
On the other hand I think rich would go out of business if he used molded tone boards. Honestly how hard would it be to stick a molded tone board into a polished cow horn, for far more less then $75? What makes Rich special (No not the short bus Rich) :innocentwhistle: Is his ablity to build, shape and tune his tone boards to specific horn, sounds and request, not to boot his experience. :congrats: and because of the fella behind the call. :wink:
P.S. Ya know I have heard fellas prefere another howler over Rich's, and I have heard plenty of folks that love Richs howlers, but ya know what I have never heard..............................I never heard anyone say any thing bad about Rich's howlers. Another one of those, when nothing is said "Louder then hell" between the line statements.
If Rich Cronk had been using molded tone boards, he would not have the reputation he has today. I own four of his killer calls myself. One of them was a prototype he sent me to check out after I ordered my first, killer jr. The variety of sounds these calls could do well was astonishing, even better than the critter call I was using. It is calls like these that lead folks to become a more versatile caller, using more sounds. I would not have the skills with a call without these.
And without Rich's mentoring, a lot of call makers would not be around today. Nor would they be as inventive as they are. I believe we can thank Rich for the huge steps that have been made in predator calls over the last few years, both custom and what the industry is trying to do for us now.
I think a lot of us owe a huge thank you to Rich for his work. Jimmie
Hey all. Quite a controversy to say the least. I too have dealt with the tone board issue. I have used Steve's with great success. They were kinda the standard for a long time. But, I can't keep my prices in line adding 2 to 3 dollars a piece for a tone board. I wish I had the time to mold my own, but such isn't the case. So for now, I machine them from Copolymer. A little labor involved, but I can get a 4 foot piece for a few dollars. When I have the raw materials, i.e. antler, cowhorn, or other odd natural materials, I like to use them too. Keeps a custom flair in the call. I don't charge as much per call as some, more than others. So far no one has complained. Here is a set I did with deer antler mouthpiece and tone board. They are my idea of a true custom call. Not necessarily the ultimate, but custom for sure.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/DWCalls/IM001529.jpg)
Take care all and keep whackin those predators,R.J.
RJ those are beautiful :biggrin:
I've never seen the antler mouth piece or tone board like that. Or maybe I dont get out enough :confused: either way...those are NNNnnnnnice :yoyo:
R.J. those are sharp looking calls. Tell us more about copolymer. Where do you get it?. How is it to work? Antler looks great, but man it does stink when you machine it.
Randy
Those look really nice RJ!!
Joe
Thanks guys. I get my Acetal Copolymer rod from MSC. www.mscdirect.com. I get it in 4 ft lengths in the dia required. Depends on the size toneboard you want to make. I cut it to the individual length, split it length ways, then finish machining it in a vertical mill. That includes the trough. I then sand the radius on it and assemble it with a cork wedge. The nice thing about copolymer, is it is more resistant to moisture than delrin, or cast nylon. Like I said, I would sooner get set up to mold my own, but just not able to take the time to. Not to mention not knowing how to go about it,R.J.
After thinking aout it and re-reading my post I decided to come in at a different angle. I agree with the look of the bulky tone boards. They do take away from an otherwise really nice looking call. Personally I don't know if there is anything you could do to change the looks of it without making the barrel overly bulky or really thin and weak around the transition.
But, I do have a question. Why did you start making calls in the first place? Just for the fun of it? For the money? Or for the drive to make a better call? Me personally, speaking from a duck call point of view, it was lack of finding a good call that would do exactly what I wanted it to do. They either had a good top end and a lack luster low end or vice versa. I wanted one that had both with a good midrange as well. I could have used molded tone boards, but what would I have been accomplishing? When I had finally made a call that would do what I wanted it to, all of my buddies had to have one, also. From there, word of mouth brought in more orders. If I had used a molded tone board would my callmaking have continued and grown? No it wouldn't have. It came from my ability to adjust my calls to fit each hunter that wanted one. Again speaking from a duck call point of view. A callmaker's main focus should be the sound quality of his calls, and then the cosmetics of it. Not the other way around. The designs of my calls have been a 12 year evolution. Always looking for a little more from them. If you are happy with using molded tone boards that sound just like everyone else's, go ahead and use them. I'm not saying they are a bad thing. Tka e Joe's calls for example, he uses alot of molded tone boards, but they are of his own design and look good and sound great. Making them different than everyone else's. Back to those bulky tone boards, if you are going to put the time into coming up with your own "custom" barrel design, then take the time to transition the barrel to that tone board so it doesn't take away from the call. I hope I didn't step on too many toes. Thanks, Brian.
This is one of the best threads Ive seen in a long time, thoughtful,honest and no bs(well, almost none : )
Hey stranger. You don't need to point out mt BS'n. :biggrin:
RJ.................those are extremely nice. :bowingsmilie: