FinsandFur.net Forums

Seen a couple comments on adding a section in the board for criticizing calls.
If you guys are serious...lets git r done.  :biggrin: I just have a couple questions.

What's going to keep it from turning into a 2nd hand call store? Meaning I really like the idea of our current Hand Call store for you folks to sell calls from, but I envision new call makers posting calls for sale in the critique forum just to see if they sell.
I'd rather, if they are going to be for sale and the feed back is enough to make them confident enough to post them in the store, that they actually double post  :shck: ...did I say that?....and put them in the store afterwards.

The other thing. What are your thoughts on preventing trains wrecks? I think were all above that especially considering what this forum will be for, but still feel there should be some guide lines in place.

Question: is there any way that someone can post calls anonymously?
I think it would help people critique calls without feeling they are hurting feelings of the call maker?
Does that make sense?

edit for clarification: I think some guys dont want to hurt certain callmakers feelings. Then again,if a guy starts posting a few calls up for critique, after a while Im sure we would all recognize the style, thus knowing who the callmaker is, making the anonymous thing moot, so maybe thats not the best way to go...

I'm all for it however you decide to do it. I know getting good honest constructive criticism is very difficult. I'm always up for suggestions on how to make my calls better. I think anonymous would be the ebst route to take...if that is possible. I also wouldn't mind the double post idea.

Personally, I'm not a call maker but I do feel a forum like that could be a big asset to some of the call makers who are interested in improving/tweaking their techniques.

QuoteThe other thing. What are your thoughts on preventing trains wrecks? I think were all above that especially considering what this forum will be for, but still feel there should be some guide lines in place.

A few simple guide lines can be incorporated. :readthis: We are (mostly :laf:) adults here. I feel as long as those posting their calls are open minded to friendly suggestions (and understand everyone has an opinion) then there will be very few train wrecks.
If persistant problems should arise, :nofgr: the offenders could be contacted (by private message) and a warning issued.  :rolleye:
It should also be understood, from the start, that any problem post(s) or the entire thread/forum, for that matter, can be deleted at any time. 

I think this could be very helpful. A tool used to push call makers to new levels. However the tool must be created. Example: Do we compare a beginner to an old timer? Do we accept a perfectly turned and polished call from an oldtimer, the same good or great quality that we have seen 30 times before or do we question the lack of creativity? Should we require a level of judging be requested by the callmaker on each call? Callmakers speak up. :biggrin:  RP

Good thoughts  :wink:

Making a forum that people could post in anonymously is no prob either.  Members could log and in post the calls, and anyone could reply. The thing is, if your a member and you want to post anonymously....you'd have to log out to do it.

One thing about that is that anyone from anywhere at any time could post a reply in there. Maybe that's a benefit, maybe it's a disaster in the waiting  :shrug:

I do think the room will have to be closely moderated though if we open the door to the public with it, because you'll get freaks that dont even know what a call is, stumbling upon it when Google finds it and provides it to them.

I think this would be a good asset for new callmakers. It would be a great way for them to refine their calls. Just be prepared to take the criticism as a positive push to your callmaking rather than a slap at it. Most of the old timers and established callmakers probably won't post there. They should be allowed to if they want some input. As far as it becoming a 2nd Hand Call Store, simply don't allow calls to be sold from it. If they want to sell it, make them post it the Store. Just my opinion. Brian.

When I first started making calls I posted pics over on PM and asked for feedback. I got the same replies you still see there now, "looking good", "nice wood", "I like the shape", "way to go", blaa, blaa, blaaaa. That was not what I was looking for.
I don't think we should get too critical with a feedback forum. If a person asks for an honest opinions/feeback, give them your HONEST opinion. :shrug:

As a call maker I don't like to give my thoughts on other peoples calls because I'm still improving my work and do not feel its fair to judge other call makers work. Plus, I feel that just because I do not like it does not mean that no one else will.

I feel opening a forum to the public will get to be problems with stupid posts and spam.

Just my random thoughts
Aaron

Good input Aaron.
The thing that everyone needs to realize, is like you and a few others have mentioned; What looks or sounds like complete dog crap, to one person might be the total opposite to the next person.
Ok...that was a little dramatic, but you all know what I'm saying. It's kind of like car dealerships. What do you think the guys that work at the Chevy dealer think of the vehicles setting over on the Jeep dealers lot? Let's ask em  :eyebrow:

All criticism taken whether or not it's in it's own forum should really be considered by it's source. Meaning if one of the Chevy dealers comes down and says, hey that call really looks like my granpa's coping saw handle, why would you sell it for $26 bucks?"
The source kinda dictates what to do with that guys opinion.

A open forum would kind of blindside that theory, but it's really up to you guys.

I agree with everyone on this could be a good thing.  I was like Aaron and did the thing at PM and got all those generic replies when I was really looking for actual critisism.  As long as everyone is honest and don't hold back, really don't hold back.  Then this will work for everyone.

i dont see how it will work. when you guy's have a thing with p.m callmaker's. it's like we have a couple expert's all of a sudden. you guy's are alianating people.  i dont want to be told if i'm aloud to use  another tone board or manufactured you guy's are getting way to serios. i'm not in for the money. i concider mine hunting call's. i'm just seeing were this is going going to make thing's worse. there's some great callmaker's and call collector's here. just hate seeing were this is going. i'm saying this in a good way. Rick

I had a big reply to this but lost it when I hit enter.  :madd:

So in short my vot is no. This is what the hand call forume is for. Get them a smilie icon (Fancy) that they put in there post when the want more feed back then "Thats a nice call"

QuoteA few simple guide lines can be incorporated.  We are (mostly ) adults here. I feel as long as those posting their calls are open minded to friendly suggestions (and understand everyone has an opinion) then there will be very few train wrecks.
If persistant problems should arise,  the offenders could be contacted (by private message) and a warning issued.  
It should also be understood, from the start, that any problem post(s) or the entire thread/forum, for that matter, can be deleted at any time.  

Uh, PM flashy backs.............flashy backs...........We are adults and no exactly what ya can do.............no need to slap us like that.  :wink:

Rick,

I'm not sure where ya think its going. The way I understand it is the calls will be posted only by call makers  WHO want honest critism, and not false replies. Its simple if a fella doesnt want it he doesn't ask. I tossed the icon idea out there thinking it would less clutter, and keep the number of forums I'm checking down, but with your post I could see where it might be benificial to have its own forum, so those that don't want to participate, don't have to have those post clutter the forums they check.  :confused:


And its not anyone forcing anything on anyone at all, but getting away from "Mr. Nicey false replies" to such post (Canned Praise) Where ideas will mingle, and call spinners will be encouraged.  :congrats: :congrats: :congrats:

Shoot yeah, it's a good idea. Then if you are really serious about wanting your calls critiqued....you know where to go. Probably put a disclaimer like: If you wear your feelings on your sleeve, don't post here..... :eyebrownod:
It would leave the other forum for call sales.

Todd sorry that make's more sense .callmaking is crazy right now. then Jim has a great idea. Rick :yoyo:

Jim,

Another thing I read in one of rj's post was a poll. The call maker could run a poll on the call with catagories of his choosen but like

Like it

Love it

Don't like it

Needs changes

Then the call spinner knows by poll results, but the folks voting are being honest with out feeiling harsh.

I like the idea, I don't think it's ever been done. Definitely worth a shot.

Just realize that if the anonymous permission is used for that forum, and anyone can post and reply without identity, they can request critique on any custom call they have....theirs or not.

If a disgruntled call buyer feels as if they've been taken, they could post the call, then cut it up with subtlety themselves. IPs will catch the second part if not AOL.

Unless that point was already hit on, it's something to consider.

Brad

I didnt think of that Brad  :sneer:

The poll idea was my first brain fart Todd...but a downfall I felt with that was, they're only going to get basic thumbs up or thumbs down results. I'm thinking most of them are going to want more descriptive insults or praise.  :shrug:

Oh and what do you guys think of blocking this whole feature from Bopeye  :roflmao:
Jis kiddin Bop!  It is POTFG Day!  :biggrin:

Ya could vote on what ya think of the over all call in the poll...........anonymos of course, the if ya wanted ya could post ronstructive critisism on a reply?  Just a thought.l

I guess I'll have to walk the other side of the road from what's been posted.   :shrug:

So how does critique based on a picture alone really help a spinner improve his future calls?    With pictures being only as good as they are, they reflect little except the general pattern (shape) of the call and if good enough give a fair idea of the quality of the materials it is made from.   A picture usually can't show the quality of craftsmanship, the quality of the finish, the quality of the "guts" of the call or what its range of tonal prowess is... or the lack of any/all of these elements.

Add that any critique, whether good, bad or indifferent is no better than the person making it.   So are we to believe that anybody who offers a critique on a call really has a clue what is truly a great call or what is just another also ran?   

From the buyers side, call collectors with a large collection of custom calls made by many different builders would have the best shot at an honest assessment IMO.   From the other side, call builders who have learned what makes a great call from years of trial and error experience building calls.   And either also with lots of field experience using mouth calls.   But NO call can be honestly assessed by anyone without having it in hand and putting it trough field trials - period!   

So I won't be critiquing any calls just from a picture.   I would consider that a huge disservice to the spinner.   (why I haven't added my 2 cents worth on any calls pictured on these forums.)

At best this would just be individual opinions on whether they like the pattern or the materials of a call as pictured or not.   Sorry, but as a call builder I don't see much benefit beyond that.   Just what we all need, more canned praise or criticism when neither carries much credibility being formed just from a picture.

Like some of the other call builders, my calls earned their reputation in the field in the hands of serious predator hunters, who then voiced their opinions on them...  not from any pictures I ever posted of them.    And those same users were my best source of critique to help me constantly improve my calls.

Ladobe

 

I read what you put Ladobe and agree wholeheartedly that a call can't get the critique from a picture that it can from actual "in hand" or "field tested". However, I do think it would be a very good tool to help a beginning call maker out on the obvious flaws in a call or maybe not even flaws, just "bad looks". At best, even from "in hand", all your gonna get is the opinion of that person. Who's to say they don't suck at blowing a call or really don't have an eye for what it takes to make a quality call?
Take me for instance, I still dislike an open reed call, because I can't get consistant results with them. Is that the calls fault or mine? My guess is that it's me. I can hand that same call to Coyotehunter1 and he can make them sing. So my opinion is close to worthless on the function of an open reed, but I sure know craftmanship or let's say artistic ability when I see it.
My dad has been carving all kinds of things from wood for well over 50 years. He's made monkeys out of peach seeds, coon hounds that look like they could bite you, fish that look good enough to eat, lures that are too beautiful to use, etc, etc. etc. I have watched him in his shop make some beautiful things and he has tried to pass his art down to me, but I just didn't take to it. Maybe it was a lack of desire or ability.......or both. Anyway, it's a shame that he has two sons and is in his 60's now and neither one of us picked up the torch from him. His "art" is gonna go when he does.  :sad: Maybe he'll stay with us long enough for my son to pick up the torch... :shrug:

I know this much. If I were to get into call making (which I'm not going to), I would go to a site like THO provides or Fins and Fur and learn all I could. Then I would spin a couple or so and post pictures of my calls and ask what folks thought. I've been around here long enough to seperate the wheat from the chaff, so I would have an idea whom to listen to or not. Then I would probably send a few calls to a few different guys on here that really can bring out the best or worse in a call, and listen to their opinions.

Now I know there are several ways of improving your call making, I'm just saying that's how I would do it.

No need to worry about that though. Remember that instrument of beauty that Jimbo made? His looks like a crowning jewel compared to what I would make........ :eyebrownod:

  I've seen on other forums a "Rate this thread" feature. I'm not sure how it worked and I can't remember seeing a rating.  How hard would it be to have a feature where a guy could post a reply, not make any comments, but leave a rateing on the thread (call)?

  I understand concerns about a "train wreck" and it's something that would have to be watched.
There's talant on this forum who could offer suggestions to us who want to learn, those of us with thick enough skin to take a spankin and keep turning.  Think about it (I'm talking to us wanna-be's here) as though you had a chance to apprentice with one or several of the great callmakers.  Do you think if you was working in his shop and turned out a substandard  piece he'd pat you on the head and tell you "good work".  I hope not. 

I think it would be worth a try.  But I defer to those with more time on this forum, you know best how the cookie will crumble.

VERY good  point Ladobe  :eyebrownod: It'll be impossible to give a true assessment through internet photography. That's why if we put it up, your moderating it  :biggrin: .......ahhhhhhhhm just giving ya a hard time  :wink:

I think the type of evaluations a lot of new makers are asking for is based on overall appearance and design. In which case, some type of anonymous system would benefit.

I can honestly say that I've never seen a thread from a call maker asking how to tone a reed because they cant get it to sound like they want it. Or a post asking for feedback on a sound from a hand call. Not saying they dont exist...but they are pretty far and few between especially when compared to the "hey look at this" threads.
Now that makes it sound like I'm implying that call makers dont give a rats arse what they sound like as long as they look good....and please dont take it that way. It's not what I was trying to get across at all.
I'm just reiterating that most feedback sought out on the forums is for design and appearance anyway.



rjl54, the type of rating system you've seen allows users to rate the value of a thread. They vote with a thumbs up theory. One star, two stars, etc.
The software averages the votes out and shows an overall ranking out in the list of threads in that particular forum...FOR that thread.
But my opinion on that is all it does is draw attention to a thread in a hugely populated list. Not much of a assessing system.  :wink:

I think you could use a thread to vote on the over all shape or design of a call, but thats about all. You haft to have the call in your hand to be able to judge the finish, feel, sound, craftsmanship (somethings you cant see in a pic).

When I started I done just what Larry said. I sent calls out to people I new could test the call and give me feedback to make me a better call maker.

I still do that, before I release a new call or new design I send them to good solid Predator callers that I know will put them threw the ringer. One good example is Rich Higgins, I send him a call every time a come out with a new call, he tests the call for me in front of coyotes and I go from there. ( And I know he will tell me like it is and I respect that).


Brent

   Maybe what is needed is a panel of judges.  A call could be submitted and then make the rounds so each gets it in hand.  A small fee to cover the shipping. If you wanted a true trial by fire that would be it. Submitting a call for reveiw would not be for the faint of heart as resulting opinions would be posted, good or bad.

Quote
A few simple guide lines can be incorporated.  We are (mostly ) adults here. I feel as long as those posting their calls are open minded to friendly suggestions (and understand everyone has an opinion) then there will be very few train wrecks.
If persistant problems should arise,  the offenders could be contacted (by private message) and a warning issued.   
It should also be understood, from the start, that any problem post(s) or the entire thread/forum, for that matter, can be deleted at any time.

QuoteUh, PM flashy backs.............flashy backs...........We are adults and no exactly what ya can do.............no need to slap us like that.

Todd, 
No insults intended....  :wink:

I think that the need for some sort of evaluation system is needed based on all of the recent posts for feedback.  I think that there could be two levels of evaluation.  1st level is a pic of the shape, and then get feedback from it.  This could utilize an online forum evaluation system.  Then the next level, if the person so choses, could be an "in hand" evaluation to inspect the details of the call and the sound quality.

I think that the people posting pics are wanting feedback on the shape/lines/proportions of their calls.  I agree with Ladobe in that a true evaluation can't be completed without an in person inspection.  But this is where we play the chicken vs the egg game.  A really good sounding call may look like arse, but it won't sell.  And there could be a really good looking call that may sound like arse, but sells good because of the shape/materials.  There is a bunch of calls selling right now because of sight and not sound.  Where do the new guys start, with the looks or the sound? 

It almost sounds like we are starting an online version for an apprenticeship for call making.  That would be really cool.

I am not sure if the results from in hand inspection should be published for everyone to see IMO.  This could ruin some people from the start.  Nobody learning the call making art is perfect right out of the box.  That is why we are looking for feedback to get better.  I would pay a fee to get my calls for some "in hand" inspection from some call makers, because I value their opinion, and the feedback on how to make my calls better is money well spent.

I believe a lot of us call builders are wanting to put in the time to become a call maker.  The call builders of today will be the call makers of tomorrow if we do this right.  Then they will be be providing the feedback to the call builders in the next generation.  Keep the torch alive.

Excellent opinions from all. I'm not sure if it's really necessary at all at this point. If everyones in agreement that constructive/brutal honesty is the key, then , thats it. The way. Keep it in the hand calls forum.

I agree actual "in yer hands" assessment is the ultimate test of sound/fit/finish/performance. I also am of the opinion though, that 95% if not more calls are sold on looks alone, or we would not have callmakers building lightboxes and upgrading their digital cameras when they start selling calls.
(selling is the goal or theme Im basing all this on)


So, if a guy is wanting feedback on shape, proportion, construction techniques or whatever,then that goal needs to be posted with the call possibly.

If he wants a" sound check" then he needs to let that be known and post a sound file( if he can).

Or both.
Still thinking...

Looks like this thread is going someplace with lots of good points and opinions being made.   :highclap:

If a spinner only wants an appraisal of the pattern of a given call he has spun, then sure, getting opinions from the general public from just a picture could be helpful to the spinner.    And that alone should not create any train wreck problems.   But I'd suggest the opinions be for the pattern (shape), material combinations used and any added features ONLY though.   Exceptional wood or other materials can give a call high eye candy appeal in a photograph whether the pattern is a good one or not, and may sway opinions.

It's my opinion that for a spinner to even begin to gain credibility for his calls, they need to settle on a pattern or two with functional proportions that will eventually be recognized as "their" signature calls, then go to work on constantly improving these calls from there.   I have experimented with literally hundreds of patterns and combinations over my 5 decades plus of building calls, but settled on my modified Weems patterns as my signature calls close to 4 decades ago.   So my calls are easily recognized as "mine" by anyone who has been around predator hunting or call collecting for a while.    Doesn't mean you can't have more patterns eventually, but IMO you need a solid base of one or two proven patterns to start from.   Predator calling and predator call collecting is coming of age and that is a big plus for the newer spinners.   Mentors were far and few between when I started, so you were forced to figure it all out on your own by lots of trail and error hours in the field and in the shop.   

Nothing can replace long experience in any art form.   But if newer spinners want to send their calls to willing folks they would respect the opinions of, I'd say go for it.   However, I think selling them to experienced call users and collectors will get feedback that is more critical and therefore more beneficial to the spinner.   Generally a person who is not a close friend and has paid for something is more likely to tell it like it is IOW.   Just keep pricing inline until your work has earned the reputation to ask for higher prices.

A lot has changed in predator call making over the last 50 years.   While calls may be offered for sale on looks alone at first now days, reputation based on quality is what earns a spinner long tenure in call making and finally gets them fair prices for their work.

Either way keep experimenting and constantly improving your craft and the sport (and all of us) will benefit from it.  And most importantly, have fun learning.

Footnote for Jim:  no thanks.   :nofgr:

 See!  If nothing else I've learned a bunch just from the conversation this topic has sparked.  Ladobe's first post really hit home with me because I'm a firm believer in "earning your stripes".  So much so that I don't sell my calls yet.  I'm fortunate to have several hardcore coyote hunters in place who are happy to receive a call for field testing.  They're good for telling me if a call works, has good sound, is easy to blow, and how it holds up overtime.  But beyond that, these guys are my friends, they're just impressed that I've turned something pretty.

  What spawned this idea was the "canned praise" from the "look at this" posts.   I guess what we're looking for is the nod from call makers and collectors who know calls.  Maybe this is something we shouldn't be looking to shortcut.  But some good ideas are being brought up here.
I gratefull that one of the perks we have in this age of technology is the relative ease in which a fellow sitting in the backwoods of Oklahoma can contact and learn from those who have traveled the hard road.  Please don't hold it against me for wanting to take advantage of that opportunity.

I've already advanced my knowledge and skill level in a very short time from listening to the good folks on this and other forums.  With that in mind I'll leave it to the longtimers, the people who built this forum to decide whats best.           
                                                                    Randy

Another idear...I could give poll permissions to those that wanted it, or make a new group, or heck give it to everyone....and let those who are looking for call evaluations post there own polls.
But it would be limited to multiple choice vote entries.

I like that idea.
A person could vote and then post a reply with more info if they so desire.


Whenever I posted a pic looking for feedback I always figured people would give there thoughts & opinions on the design and "look" of the call.
I figured it was common sense.  :confused: I mean its hard to give an opinion on sound, feel, etc. from a picture.  :shrug:


Aaron

 Great thread so far, and as usual Ladobe is the well spoken gentlemen of the bunch.
  Tough to lay out parameters for a critique forum.  Design and color is all you can really see and that depends on photo quality.    I don't know what the answer is other than expect real opinions when you come here and ask for it.  If you're selling,, whether it move or not should tell you something.  Most of the established callmakers will refund if you are not happy.  But substandard work doesn't leave the shop.
      I've been working with antler and horn, Mother Nature decides most of what it looks like, my job is to make it a predator call.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I have a lot to learn.   The ones that sound great are usually gifts for friends so far. Looks may sell, but sounds will gte the job done.  Kinda like the old saying "chrome won't get you home!".
 

Looking back on some this.... :iroll:

• RJ mentions a poll, I went around it.
• Todd brings up the poll again
• I address it, but dont praise it
• next day I got another idear...a poll!  :innocentwhistle: :rolleye:

:laf: Just so ya know Todd, that was completely unintentional  :biggrin:
Man I made myself look retarded amidst it all even.

My apologies..
Been some long days this weekend. Working with the programmer that wrote my Fins and Fur Top sites script to come up with a script to block the spammers from over seas, stealing our code. What a headache.  :sad:

I did'nt see it or take it any other way Jim.  :wink: Great Idea on the poll though..........I'll second it.  :biggrin: