Just read this on the wvsportsman site . . .
"I will say this one last time, this tragedy is NOT a gun issue, it is a social and cultural issue but our leaders don't wont to discuss that real problem.
Case in point
30-40 years ago
1) Parents did not worry about letting their kids walk home from school.
Today, parents fear even letting their kids play in their own yard unwatched.
Heck, even at age 8 or 10 we would go out and play all day long and our parents did not even worry where we were as long as we were home in time for dinner.
But in today's world ?
2) Almost nobody thought of locking the doors in their home or car when we were young. You almost never heard of a home burglary.
But today ?
Home alarm installation is one of the fastest growing businesses in the country.
Alarms systems, dusk to dawn lights, video cameras, impact proof glass, etc..
Who would have even dreamed that 40 years go ?
3) Compare a TV show like Andy Griffith or even Cheers to modern shows like South Park or Two and Half Men. Subtle humor and wit has been replaced by straightforward vulgarity.
4) Gun ownership has been a part of the American lifestyle since its founding. Many of us grew up with guns all over the house. Shotguns under beds. behind doors, etc...
Strangely enough, you did not hear about these random shootings 40 years ago like you do today, despite the same availability of guns.
What changed ?
Why was it not a problem then, but it is today ?
5) There is an alarming growth of Obesity today. Almost 27% of all humans are not just overweight today, but obese.
Does the government stress the importance of diet, exercise, logical lifestyle changes and personal responsibility ?
NO
Instead they make moves in prohibit the sale of 16 oz Soda Drinks as though they can protect people from themselves.
"Band aids and aspirin" do not cure cancer.
I could go on and on for another 10,000 words with endless examples, but I feel the point is made.
There is SOMETHING else going on in our culture and society that is behind all this pain, tragedy and crime.
Too many people want to treat a symptom, but not a cause.
Too many people want to react with an overly simplistic solution because it will make them feel better about themselves as though they are doing something.
But they are only deluding themselves.
Guns are not the root of all this evil.
As our technology has been improving, our social and cultural integrity have been corroding and rotting away.
Perhaps people no longer fear something greater than themselves and thus there is no fear of a God to curb their activities as in the past
Perhaps our unwillingness to actually raise and discipline children has added to this problem. After all, in today's society even simple discipline is labeled as Abuse by the Socially Liberal mind set.
Perhaps our impotent legal and political system have enabled more of this violence to occur.
After all, I personally know frustrated police officers who complain of arresting the same person 14 times for home burglaries yet to this day, the person has never spent more than 1 night in jail.
Where is the deterrence ?
Where is the punishment ?
Where is the Scared Straight idea at work ?
Our politicians are great at writing laws simple words on blank paper.
But how about real world enforcement.
We have laws regarding Illegal Immigration .
How has that worked out for America ?
We have supposedly had a "War on Drugs" for many years.
Yet, I don't see the USA actually enforcing a zero tolerance like Singapore -- a Country with only 1% of the crime and drug activity as the United States.
There is no single simple solution BUT the REAL ROOT PROBLEM behind this kind of violence is a combination of many factors.
But all these factors have one thing in common -- They reflect a rotting and decline of Social and Cultural values, integrity, virtue, respect, honor, ethics and morality.
Michael"
Jim
It's pretty simple why these things happen.
We cant discipline our kids.
Kids grow up on video games built around shooting people.
Parents have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet, which limits their actual time TO parent.
And with today's economy kids can make more money selling dope then Mom and Dad can working two jobs.
:shrug:
Yep!!
Jim
I don't think it is simple at all. I think it is very complex. The children are not even buried yet and people are being extreme in their comments, possibly not willing to have a civil discourse begin that touches all the bases. If we don't sit down together to try to improve after this event, what would it take to make us do so?
I'll be your Huckleberry...what kind of "improvements" you got in mind, Possumal?
The rebellious Hippies came to power, had kids and this is where we are today. The last two Generations let kids be a part of the adult world, have a say and make choices.
No matter how tired you are you have to take Billy to ball practice. No matter how tired you are you have to work Saturday overtime so little Susie can get a new dress to impress her friends. No matter how financially unstable you are you have to get a loan or credit card to get little Bobby and Susie the right presents for Christmas. Kids rule!!!
No matter how bad your kid did or seems to be you just need to have a conversation with them and explain things. It's not their fault it's the other kids their hanging out with. If your kid is failing in school its because of his or her teachers. If you have tried talking, timeout or counseling and they still do bad things it still not their fault it's a medical condition and they need medication.
If you have talked to them, put them in timeout, enrolled them in private or home school, got them medicated and they still go out and shoot up a school or laundry mat it still is not their fault it's the guns fault and society failed them along the way.
Kids have taken over, even our Government is run by spoiled kids that blame others for its failures. The only way to clean things up for the future is to start with the kids born today because they are the future. Obviously my Generation and the Generation we have created can't take personal responsibility and continue to blame others.
Agreed with ccp. Im young and cant stand half the kids in my age bracket. Mainly for the reasons ccp stated above.
I couldnt agree more Richard!
Quote from: riverboss on December 18, 2012, 08:13:11 PM
I couldnt agree more Richard!
+1
I'm 33 and my generation is a complete embarrassment
We all know where this is going. The easy thing to do is blame the guns and push for more restrictions. This will make the congressmen and senators feel good, feel like they have done something to prevent future incidents. To really deal with the problems pointed out in the posts above can not be legislated. Instead us law abiding gun owners are going to have restrictions placed on the kind of guns we can own and how many rounds we can have in them. The legislators will feel good about themselves and there will be another incident soon. Then the legislators will say, "well we just didn't do enough the last time so what we need are more restrictions". And so on and so on til our gun rights are completely eroded.
Then here is what we will have (copied from wvsportsman site) . . .
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were round...ed up and exterminated In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million. You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'. During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED! If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends. SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! IT'S A NO BRAINER! DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET. Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment!
Just the way I see it??? Join the NRA!!
Jim
Jim, I don't have any improvements in mind. What I have in mind is the start of something better. We owe it to each other and the children. I am going to watch this thing develop, try to understand it, and react properly. I do appreciate your offer to be my Huckleberry though.
The problems are basic as Richard so eloquently put it. :yoyo: :yoyo: There is no complex problems in these shootings. Everything is basic. If more people could carry in more public places there would be fewer shootings like these. And the ones that did happen could possibly be thwarted in a quicker time frame resulting in fewer deaths. Maybe I just don't understand the complexities surrounding the mass murder of innocent children & adults by unstable individuals. All I know is WE are the ones that will pay the heavy price for all of this.
Here's another great link from wvsportsman site . . .
"Guns, mental illness, and Newtown" by David Kopel in the Wall Street Journal
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323723104578185271857424036.html
Worth the read!!
Jim
Quote"I don't think it is simple at all. I think it is very complex. "The children are not even buried yet and people are being extreme in their comments, possibly not willing to have a civil discourse begin that touches all the bases." If we don't sit down together to try to improve after this event, what would it take to make us do so?"
I agree the first thing the media and liberal Democraps starting shouting was gun control. If they had not done that the gun owners would not even say anything but positive helping the children. Unfortunately the idiots started spouting off and created a discussion about guns and so called assault weapon bans instead of a discussion about making easier concealed carry laws and getting rid of gun free zones.
We had an assault weapons ban and magazine capacity ban when the Columbine massacre was committed. Those guys with .22's and shotguns with 10 round pistol magazines created that carnage.
Could you phantom how much worse a mass shooting in a confined movie theater or school would be if the ass clowns used pump shotguns loaded with Dead Coyote or #4 buck. So if they continue to keep gun free zones and block concealed carry and take all the AK 47 and AR15 away the carnage will be even worse and then you will lose your pump shotgun next. So where would it stop?? Point is it won't stop till they have all your guns. If they really want to help curtail mass shooting look elsewhere than a shooters guns.
All these mass shooters stop when confronted by someone armed. Sounds pretty simple to me but I don't have an agenda.
When they finally ban all the guns, WHO protects us from our government?
Follow the money. "They" are not going to take away all our guns.
Quote from: possumal on December 20, 2012, 08:17:34 AM
Follow the money. "They" are not going to take away all our guns.
Al-- Please elaborate on who "They" are & what the money trail means to the anti's. And which guns will they allow us to own. Thank You.
'They' want us unarmed...period. I believe that with all my heart. Il say it again...please explain to me how taking guns away from law abiding citizens somehow makes those citizens safer?
Sent from my SCH-R930 using Tapatalk 2
If "They" support taking away ANY of our guns "Their" not Americans.
Guys,
A friend just e-mailed this link to me. This is a must read article about the Newtown shooting. It's long, but well worth the time spent!!
http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/on-newtown-on-guns/
This is so good I hope you all take the time to read it!
Jim
Jim, that is a very engaging article, with a lot of good thinking in the content. Somebody asked me to define who "They" is. Hell, I have been wondering who the "They" is I have been hearing about for years. I didn't start the thread using that term. My suggestion to follow the money pertains to the billions of dollars connected to hunting and the shooting sports. I don't know of a single law abiding citizen who has lost their self defense, hunting, or shooting sport weapons except people who have been the victim of burglaries like yours truly. I sincerely hope that this latest tragic event initiates civil discourse at all levels, and meaningful improvements can be the result. It is about a wide multitude of problem areas, and will take the people and the elected representatives working together to help turn things around.
I believe you are right possumal and I would be willing to have civil debates and also be willing to work with elected representatives as long as they do not try to take any of my guns. There should never be any debates on what our constitution says. We do not need the governments approval on this matter. You said earlier that you would like to see the start of something better. i also agree with this and think the first step in this would be addressing the idea of Poor Parenting. What would be better for our children and our future?