The other night after watching Chuck Liddell get beat up, I decided to stop off and do some howling around town. It was 1:45 a.m. before I arrived at my location. It is a place I can't hunt but figured it held coyotes and felt like "calling" them. It's a pretty good sized chunk of farmland, for here, and it's out in the boonies.
Anyway, I pulled to the side of the road and howled 4 or 5 times within' a few minute span and sat quiet for a few more. I howled 3 or 4 more times waited and then hopped in the car. I went around to the southern edge of the property, less then a 1/2 mile away and got out and went around to the back of the car. Resting comfortably I howled 4 or 5 times pretty deeply with a Power Howler and waited. For good measure and a change of pace I howled a few times on my Killer Call. A minute later I started some whines barks and distress on the Killer Call. I followed that quickly with some fawnish distress and some challenge howls.
Satisfied that nothing would come in or answer I hopped in the batmobile and headed down the road. I had plans on hitting a secluded park that I thought held some coyotes that I might dupe. I had driven about a hundred yards down the road when I spotted something spinning away from the car and start running on the shoulder. A coyote, a young one. It started to pass in front of me and I had the sudden urge to hit the gas and chase it. The youngin' made it safely into a ditch and out into one of the fields before I had time to "see what would happen" if I rolled over it. That coyote heard 15 or more howls and was coming to see what was up. How do I know? I just do.
I drove another hundred yards, turned around and went back to where the coyote had run off and out into the field. I jumped out and this time I used some really high pitched howls, a couple lone howls and then my interpretation of an "anyone that's out there invitation howl." After the 10th or so howl I had a group of them light up. They were in a patch of woods in the middle of a field opposite of the one that the the road rage coyote had escaped into. They yip-howled for about 45 seconds and then shut up.
I had to have howled 25 times in the general direction of those coyotes. I have had occasions where it took only 1-2 howls to get them going but many more where it takes A LOT to get them interested enough to talk back. Mainly they show up sooner and never howl. Locating, for me, is mainly done by sign because of their tight lips. Has anyone else howled near constant and had them show up or howl back? My area is whacked out like that.
Not quite like that, but I sure liked the story.
I have had them run along side the truck before. Funnier then hell to watch.
Never chased a coyote down the road, but had some fun with a moose on the highway once. They are pretty fast for a big old dumb animal,
Anyway, I was just sitting here pondering on the effects of aggressive howling on subordinate and transient coyotes.
I wonder if the coyotes you howled up were all young of the year and subordinate animals. With all that howling you might have sounded like the Crips or the Bloods of the coyote world and they didn't want to take a butt whooping. Maybe the yip howls were their way of saying "hey mom and dad, get over here we got trouble."
The young one, well, there is always one that has more courage than sense,
I don't know where you live, but around here, they are more apt to come investigate a howl than answer it. Now 150 miles north, in the mountains, they answer pretty regularly. Weird.
Al
With all the howling you were doing, I'm guessing they had a hard time getting a word in edge wise! :wo:
Where I hunt, I have had more coyotes show up silently after I howl, than come to the stand after they howl. Probably 90% have shown up silently. For some reason, they don't want to come and check me out after they howl. :wo:
I don't have too much of a difficulty getting them to vocalize though. They usually vocalize after 2-3 of my howls. If I howl more than 5 times without an answer, I just figure nobody is home and go to another spot.
Brian
Greenside, it was a pretty one sided conversation 'til the end. :sleep: They were more than likely telling me to shut up. :madd:
BigB, the point you make about howling a few times and then moving because you figured nothing was there is part of the reason I posted what I did. If I had howled 5 or 6 times in a 20 minute span and then left I would not have known for sure that they were there. Now, because of my long winded calling I do know that they are there. I have seen and heard their presence. I may ask for permission to hunt the property now. Both sides of the road seem to be holding them so I have a starting point. It doesn't work all the time, every time. I wish it did. But, it has worked enough for me that when I am out calling and not hunting I will give it a try. Frustration or tiredness usually brings out the Cacaphony of Calls. These coyotes are tight lipped and eggshell walkers, it takes a bit to get them to open up.
KC
Care to speculate a little on what you think the coyote were doing in the time frame before the group yip howl? What was the ultimate trigger?
I can think of a scenario that might explain, but would like to hear yours.
I could speculate about what they were doing but it would be just that, speculation. I do know what happens when they are within' eyesight but out of sight is anybody's guess. Having said that to cover my ass, here are a couple of ways it could have played out.
They could have been coming to the call from pretty far off and decided to yip howl when they got within 500 yards (guesstimate) to tell me off. They could have been calling to their pal that I tore away. Many things could have triggered it and if I knew what it was I could have roused them much sooner and with much less effort.
Greenside, I would most definitely appreciate hearing your scenario.
Comfort Zone
JD
Nice one, canine! But that is not a scenario, that's a place. Them shouting from the den door doesn't account for their doings before. They were out and about and gathered back at base camp and trash talked to let me know they were home and defending? Intriguing.
QuoteWhat was the ultimate trigger?
Sounds like that they moved to a safety zone or comfort zone before declaring there presents in the area. The group yip howl was to let you know that the territory was occupied by another group of coyotes. And you by doing all the howling at them got them to yip howl to stake a claim in response to your howling.
QuoteNice one, canine! But that is not a scenario, that's a place. Them shouting from the den door doesn't account for their doings before
The comfort or safety zone doesn't mean they were at the den. Most at this time have moved away from the dens. A safety zone or comfort zone is just a place the coyotes feel extra safe or comfortable inside there core area of there territory. Coyotes relocate allot of the time before giving a vocal response to howling. That's why I always wait 15 - 20 min after howling at night to locate before I move on to the next spot.
Brent
KeeKee -
What do you think the size of the typical family group is right now? 5 to 7 Coyotes?
When they move to a safe zone within their core area, I wonder, are they are all hunting in different directions within their core area, and if so, how do they communicate to each other to get everyone to move to that safe zone if they are not howling? Do you think it is a learned response to perceived danger that makes them go "group" back up somewhere?
Also, what do you think the size of the typical safe area would be? And what kind of terrain would it be located in? Up high when that is available, or dense forest or what? On a topo or areal map, what would a guy look for as a starting point for a safe area?
Here in my area, most dens, and the places I would call safe areas are usually either up high with a steep drop off to one side, usually the east, and the wind at their back with good visibility all around yet still some cover.
When I am trying to find new areas to hunt, I often look for those ridges or mountains that have a steep slope to the east or south east with deciduous forest at the top. I rarely have found them in the spruces and hemlocks where the ground cover can be very sparse and the soil sandy and covered in pine needles. It's even better if there is a spring fed stream to the south close by, especially if it is medium sized and wanders for a good while through thick forest.
Al
Quote from: keekee on September 27, 2007, 12:46:40 AMThat's why I always wait 15 - 20 min after howling at night to locate before I move on to the next spot.
AH HA! That's my problem, I'm not setting at a spot long enough. :doh2:
Kee Kee, I am sure that most have vacated the dens by now but they still may feel safest in the general vicinity of the den. There was not much howling going on by them it was mainly yipping, so I couldn't figure out if there were any adults involved. No deep howls. The safety zone is a viable theory but may not always be the case. I am sure they feel safe in the entire territory, otherwise it would not be their territory. Big B says he gets them to vocalize quite a bit. Are his coyotes ALWAYS in a comfort zone? Probably not, depending on when he is howling.
THO, I have heard them in "hunting mode" a bit using very short howls to let one another know their location. This is a few and far between phenom.
Kee, not being a vocalization or behavioral expert I will take your and Canines theory and accept it as viable. LOL! Thanks for the input.
Al,
Its hard to say what size the groups are now. I have not been out yet this year but I would think the groups have split up or right on the verge of dispersing here at this time. Allot of that seems to have to do with what time the pups are born.
The core area and safety zones to me seem to be to different areas. A core area is more defined in the denning season. The safety zone (to me) just seems to be a small area that the coyotes seem to feel safe inside there territory. And usually seems to be small. The comfort part seems to relate to different things. A high point, thick cover, certain areas inside there territory. This I have found just by going into areas that I have located coyotes from in the past, and going in and scouting a few days after. And what I have read from studies and talking with different people.
I dint think they hunt so much inside there core area but it being a place they feel safe. A strange coyote or strange coyotes inside there territory may trigger a regroup. And that may take place inside there safety zone. Like a trigger they just know were to go in a case like this.
I'm not big on maps for finding key places. I like ,maps to locate new areas then do some locating. Then from then on it is pure shoe leather, to get what I need to hunt that spot.
QuoteKee Kee, I am sure that most have vacated the dens by now but they still may feel safest in the general vicinity of the den. There was not much howling going on by them it was mainly yipping, so I couldn't figure out if there were any adults involved. No deep howls
I disagree on this point. Once the pups get out of then den here they seem to move them to a area were there is more of what they need at this time, be it water, cover, fields to train the pups to hunt, different things. The den is of no use to them by then. And we are close if not in the dispersal at this time of year. There not so much pups no more and have been taught allot of what they need to survive. And young innocence is not tolerated like it has been in the past. They may have moved on, and there toleration of the litter is not the same at this time of year as in the spring as pups. When the pups first get vocal here the adults will let them yip for sometime then with a few short barks they shut them up on a dime! They don't give off that puppy yip sound now like they did a month ago. They have moved from pups to YOY coyotes. Not all adult coyotes have deep howls.
QuoteThe safety zone is a viable theory but may not always be the case. I am sure they feel safe in the entire territory, otherwise it would not be their territory. Big B says he gets them to vocalize quite a bit. Are his coyotes ALWAYS in a comfort zone? Probably not, depending on when he is howling.
Your right, it may not be the case. I'm sure they don't do this every time. Allot of things have impressions on why and when they howl. But I do no its the case in allot of the time. If they yip howled they were letting you know that there was another group in that area. But its there territory because it has good food, water and cover. And depending on the populations there could be allot of other reasons why they took up this territory. Safety being just one of them. Coyotes set up territory's inside high human traffic areas all the time.
My coyotes here are pretty vocal as well even during the day and so are JD's. But three years ago jerking a howl out of one of them during the day was tough. Now its not so tough. I think allot of it has to do with populations, territory's, food, and many other things. One being were you are when you howl inside there territory.
I am curious about what you have heard KillerCaller from them vocally when they are hunting. This is one thing I have never heard or seen. I am very interested in what you know here or have seen or heard?
QuoteKee, not being a vocalization or behavioral expert I will take your and Canines theory and accept it as viable. LOL! Thanks for the input.
Nether am I by no means! I have spent allot of time reading studies, and talking and hunting with my mentors like Rich Higgins, talking with different people on the phone, enet and any other way I can learn about them. But in no way shape or form am I a expert! If I came off that way I apologize for sure! I am trying all the time to learn all I can!
Greenside! What about your input?
Brent
I think a lot of this depends on the areas you hunt, and - I'm going to say it - the genetic make up of the coyotes in that area.
One of the big issues I have with all the studies that have been done in the past is that most are on western coyotes and many are on coyotes that live in areas where there is little if any human traffic or intrusion. While this may be useful information to the scientist, and show him or her how coyotes behave in a natural habitat that is unmolested by man, it has little if any bearing on coyotes that live in close proximity to people, and who may in fact have wolf DNA in them. (more than the standard "dogs all evolved from wolves so all dogs have wolf DNA argument).
Coyotes where I live seem to confine themselves to areas that have little human traffic at the particular time of day they use that area. In other words, you may find tracks and scat on the bike trails in the woods, but the coyotes will not use those trails when there is the possibility of encountering humans on them. So they get used at night. I have come to this conclusion from asking many cyclist and cross country skiers if they have seen coyotes on the trails they ride. I always get the same response. Tracks, but no animals. Conversely, I think coyotes tend to go up high and into very dense cover during the day as there is less chance of human encounters. Again, many of our mountains have trails that lead to the peaks and are heavily used, but hikers rarely report coyote sightings. The coyotes are in dense cover away from the main trails.
These areas up high and in dense cover seem to serve multiple uses. First, many of them are den sites in the late winter and early spring, and I believe then become safe areas in the late spring and summer months. There simply are not enough places where they can escape human activity for them to have multiple safe sites.
When it comes to howling or the lack of it, I think it has to do with the fact that coyotes here do not have to scrape and scrounge for food. Food is abundant, and I think one of their least worries. Water also seems to be less of a concern with coyotes here than out west. With the number of aquifers in the mountains, water is everywhere, even in times when we have no rain. On the other hand, floods and heavy rains for several weeks do have an impact on their travel and bedding areas, as well as their hunting.
I believe that coyotes here have very small core areas, and that these areas may serve also as safe areas withing their territory. I also think that they travel less distances here when hunting because they don't have to. I think this is one of the key reasons we hear so few of them howl even at night. There are so few coyotes that the need to defend territories is less of a concern and therefore they may tolerate a transient coyote passing through as long as he or she does not come inside their core area. They will investigate first unless the core or safe areas are breached, and that rarely happens because the population densities are so low.
But all that may be changing, for as Browning204 noted in a thread earlier this week, he has heard some howling at night. Further, trapping reports indicate the numbers of coyotes trapped has doubled almost every year for the last 5 or 6 years, with fewer trappers running trap lines. So the population may be expanding. If that is the case, then I would expect to start hearing more howling at night and more aggressive responses to transient or intruding coyotes.
I asked the question about family group size because I have witnessed on several occasions, packs of coyotes in December, January, February and March. By packs I mean groups of 5 or more coyotes. These are usually confined to certain areas within the state, but you can almost always bet on seeing a pack in some places where you will see singles and maybe doubles in others. The packs are usually confined to those areas that are way off the beaten track, up high, and with little or no human activity to speak of. I believe these animals to have Gray Wolf DNA in them. They are larger, darker, and behave unlike the single coyotes we see nearer more urban areas. These animals work together to attack deer yards in the winter, and can often be seen trailing one another along the edges of meadows at first light. They do not use the snow mobile or cross country trails like our more southern coyotes do, and in early March, if the days are warm and the nights cold, causing the snow to crust over, they can move very effectively. They seldom howl though. I have seen and heard them communicate through barks and growls, but I cannot ever remember hearing or seeing them howl.
I think that because of the low population densities of the eastern coyote, if we expect them to behave like their western cousins, we are in for long fruitless days. A coyote may be a coyote no matter where he lives, but where he lives determines to a large extent how he behaves.
Al
Ha Ha Ha...Two words got it started...LOL...I think ...for what it's worth, coyote populations have alot to do with how vocal they become. Territorial bounderies, I believe reflect on if they will vocally respond to howls. Meaning, if at the time you howl,they are close to bounderies during normal season they'll move to a comfort zone to respond vocally. I have seen them during breeding season come from a long ways off vocal the whole time to run you out of there area. Time of year has alot to do with how vocal they are. Moon phases have alot to do with how vocal they are. All my theories are based from experiences I have had with these moody little bastids. And yes...I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night :eyebrow:
Killercaller, I have no clue how they can hear a howl and all end up in the same basic area to group yip howl back at ya. I have though witnessed from my tree stand one january evening, 5 coyotes trot out of the woods 75 yards from me out into an open pasture field that was probably 40 acres big if not bigger. What i seen blew me away, 3 of the coyotes trotted off in 3 different directions forming a semi circle around the breeding pair and literally posted gaurd while the breeders knotted up. The whole time they were doggy stylin it, those other 3 poor bastids had to look out for danger while the other 2 were occupied. Kinda like back in high school.....wait a minute....nevermind...I have watched them hunt in pairs down fence rows and water ways. Working together in a fashion that shows there intellegence.
gotta run dinner time now :rolleye:
I'll add more when phone quits ringing :rolleye:
JD
Nice topic Killer, there are alot of good response's. I can't believe Chuck lost either.
JD's phone musta not quit ringing :laf:
QuoteI am curious about what you have heard KillerCaller from them vocally when they are hunting. This is one thing I have never heard or seen. I am very interested in what you know here or have seen or heard?
Okay, First off, I can only surmise that they were hunting at the time. A few years back we had a pack of somewhat vocal coyotes running the fields out back. They would yip howl and vocalize in other ways about once every 2 weeks, yeah real vocal. Well on a couple of occasions I heard them howling back and forth. One would let out a very short howl and then successively others would answer with the same short howl one after the other from different points on opposite sides of the tree line. It was May and it was more than likely a family hunt. I had a couple come in and feed on a fawn carcass that was down in the swamp behind the house. I tried veeeeery hard to get the sounds recorded but only succeeded in getting a couple different ones on camera. Like I said, few and far between phenom. I really wish they were much more vocal around here, I would love to hear them every night. Sweet music!
I am not a believer in being able to distinguish male from female when they are howling but if I hear a nice throaty deep howl I am going to go out on a limb and guess it's not a YOY.
Kee Kee, I know you are not an "expert" by definition. You know coyotes and those in the know have nothing but good thing to say about you soooo.... you are an expert by default. And your little dog JD too!
Nice story Dog porn story. :shck: Don't tell me you shot them in the act!
Little dog JD...... :nono:
No, I didn't shoot them, I had a bow in my hand, but I was damn sure tryin to lip squeek one into range :biggrin: I guess that shows breeding supercedes hunger :confused: :wink:
I am no expert either but do enjoy my stays at Holiday Inn Expresses :biggrin:
JD
Hunting with Higgins over a period of four days, I discovered he uses maybe one short, submissive coyote vocalization, or maybe none, while calling to them on the average stand. Otherwise, he pretty much sticks to a constant rotating repetoire of all distress sounds. After a coyote shows up for the camera, it's a different story. Higgins changes over and uses all coyote noises to get them to stick around. Standing there with my camera on a tripod, trying to get the perfect shot of Higgins misting a coyote a few yards in front of him, and never quite gettitng the perfect pose, it's very strange to have coyotes in three different directions barking back at you for 10-15 minutes.
After that experience with Higgins, and after watching more than a dozen visible coyotes retreat at any mention of a coyote vocalization during my own solo shotgun hunting adventures over the last two years, I've quit using any coyote sounds entirely, except an occasional coyote or pup distress after a kill shot, but even then I've become more inclined to switch right back to distress. This season, since July 2, I just shot #50, and I've heard exactly one coyote before, during, or after the shot. That coyote was barking, either at me, or looking to regroup with his partner, now laying dead a few feet in front of the caller. Otherwise, I haven't heard a single thing from the coyotes I'm hunting, except a death cry. Lack of vocalizations on their part hasn't kept my hunting success down.
I know that a lot of guys use howling as a part of their arsenal and I always enjoy your discussions of how it works in your part of the country. However, in all my hunting situations here in Ca for the near future, I'm sticking entirely to distress sounds and won't be using any coyote sounds. I'm also going to make every attempt to hunt again for a full weekend with the Higginses in the immediate future, and I'll be the first to admit it if they convince me otherwise.
this is some good reading :congrats: hey Gary when you gonna hook up with Rich I would love to be there :wink:
Ed
Sorry about the delay. I had some issues with a blood clot in the leg and had a few doctor appointments and a couple of ultrasounds yesterday.
Well obviously a regroup or some sort of assembly occurred, I just think the timing and the outcome are somewhat strange due to the sequence of events.
You have to make some assumptions that the first time you tried to locate, that the coyote that you really needed to hear the howls could actually hear them. I think that is a very big factor in locating. Very possible that YOY were spread out and could hear you, but they usually will not initiate any howls at this time of year. And then the time frame from getting in the truck and moving that 1\2 mile, probably didn't take you too long but you have no idea if there was any communication in that time frame. Some of the assembly howls can be nothing more than a single howl. ARrrrroh, and that's about it.
And then you get to the second place and howl again. My experience in locating says that 1\2 mile can make a lot of difference in them hearing you and also you hearing them. Maybe the adults did hear you this time? Maybe there was some sort of communication ,however brief , that you didn't hear due to the racket of the distress calls and the other sounds you were making? And then the time frame of getting back in the truck and suddenly see the approaching coyote,. Was he actually coming to the call or just using the road for quick access to the rally point?
I'm not real sure what happened out there. To be honest with you, after all that howling , I'd would probably assume you would have had some warning type or challenge type howls. If you continually harass a coyote I think sooner or later he probably will howl back at you, even if it's out of spite. I certainly would expect something more aggressive than a group yip howl. One thing I will say is that if you were actually in the field hunting and not on the road when that yip howl occurred. I think if you would have lone howled or started with some loud distress, I think you more than likely would have had the whole nine yard in your lap!
Right now the coyote in my area (backyard) are extremely vocal. Not so much from a howling stand point(group) but with short series of barks, some loud and some soft, some sounding somewhat passive and others that are more on the aggressive side with an occasional howl thrown in to the mix. They wake me up 3 or 4 times a night. I think they have a very good idea on where the other members of the group are, at least the adults recent position, which really makes me wonder if they really have a predetermined rendezvous point or if they only head in the direction of the last known position and then pick up on the scent trail to find the adult. This probably could take that 20 or so minutes that Brent and others talk about. I've seen them regroup before and I know there can be a lot of sniffing and posturing before the group yip howl is initiated.
What was the trigger? I think the 1\2 mile shift in position.
QuoteWhat was the trigger? I think the 1\2 mile shift in position.
That's very possible! The half mile run down the road could of made a big difference. It could of simulated several things. One being a strange coyote or coyotes crossing threw there territory. I have found this tool to work sometimes to jerk howls out of coyotes that I could not locate. I will get in the truck and with a partner slowly drive threw the area with the windows down and yip howl as we hang out the windows and move threw the area. Then at a certain point just stop and listen for 15 min then move on. To me this simulates another group of coyotes moving threw there territory and will often get a Territorial vocalization response out of the group.
Gary,
Your tactic's are a little different than ours, and maybe the reason you have got the results you have from coyote vocalizations. The way you hunt is just made for distress sounds. And you are very efficient at them as well, you have a heck of a system worked out on those coyotes!
Off topic a little: One of the reasons I employ vocalization here is I may not be able to get up and move and set up in the same area this group of coyotes are in. And in my style of hunting I may not be back to this spot for a long time. If I can run a few vocals and get a response be it, vocally or appearance then I want to use them to take this or these coyotes. I howl on 80 - 100% of my stands at some point. Maybe in the beginning, middle or end but sometime during the stand will most likely howl. This time of year being one that would call for it at the end of the stand unless something changes my mind during the stand.
I cant count the number of times we have ran threw the distress series and ended with coyote vocals and pull a coyote in and shoot it that if we had not howled we would of got up and walked off leaving empty handed. Both East and West.
Brent
QuoteYour tactic's are a little different than ours
That made me remember the picture Gary posted a while back of the two dead coyotes he shot of his back porch while wearing shorts and sandles drinking a cup of coffee while the E caller was blaring away :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Al
Greenside, I was happy that I got anything out of them. I was throwing challenges, invitations, yips and lone howls at them so fast that, maybe like the mist, they didn't know what to do? I would have expected to get some sort of, "I wanna kick your ass" response and not a yip howl as well. The move down the road (in their mind the coyote movement) could have been the trigger.
Gary, I mainly use howling because it works and I enjoy it. If I had no luck with it I would give up on it on a dime. Mainly howling interspersed with distress is how I go. As THO stated, they are not going hungry for most of the year back here. I know a lot of guys have great success using distress only but it's just not for me.
I am much more of a Caller than a Killer so the enjoyment for me is in the slow approach afforded by howls.
I don't pull the trigger I push the gas!
Canine, they just built a Holiday Inn Express next to the Bass Pro shop up here. My stays are only 20 minutes.
QuoteI can't believe Chuck lost either.
I am sort of a Liddell fan but I like the way Jardine works. Chopping people down with kicks is his game and he is good at it. I was very surprised that Jardine was KO'ed by Houston Alexander. Striker's are not my favorite to watch in MMA. That fight between Thiago Tavares and Tyson Griffin was the type of fight I love to watch.
QuoteI can't believe Chuck lost either.
I am sort of a Liddell fan but I like the way Jardine works. Chopping people down with kicks is his game and he is good at it. I was very surprised that Jardine was KO'ed by Houston Alexander. Striker's are not my favorite to watch in MMA. That fight between Thiago Tavares and Tyson Griffin was the type of fight I love to watch.
Now your talking. I like both aspects of the game.
Dennis, do you have that piece of machinery up and runnin? Good post on the locating logic.
KC sounds like you were calling coyotes instead of locating coyotes. Was it a clear night there with bright moonlight. Coyotes will usually be less vocal if you are locating close to a home range, and more apt to come in to check it out.
Distress vs. vocalizations in Oct. to Dec. that's pretty elementary. East, west ,dispersed YOY are a little spooky of coyote vocalizations. Maybe why all the YOY pics showin YOY dead using distress!
Group howls vs. lone howls to get the most responses locating during the course of a year, a series of vocalizations and distress to locate coyotes.
Nighttime locating ,daytime locating. The surface is just being scratched.
Time of the day or night you locate.
What they do after you locate them.
Does it sound like an aggressive pair, a group, a lone coyote, have you heard them there before, cover and terrain they are in when located, time of year, all factors in the plan of attack after locating.
This is stuff you learn in the field, not on the Internet. The Internet forums gives you ideas then you have to fill in the blanks.
RandyR, yes I was calling and not locating. If I am calling in any way I am expecting something to show up. If I am locating I am walking, looking for sign.
RR
Yup, It's up and running. One mean machine! Nothing close to buyers remorse yet.
I realize that it can take a long time to get response when locating. Maybe even twenty minutes or more. I also know that in that time frame a lot can happen. Coyote could move a couple of miles either toward or away from you. If I going to wait that long for a response, I'm sure as hell going to more down the road some and then wait them out rather than stick in the same place for more more than five or six minutes. In my area you are going to get busted big time if you stick around for very long. Had it happen too many times to play around with them. For what it worth, for the average recreational howler and caller if you don't get after response after three or four minutes after a couple of short series of lone howls or maybe on group yip howl and go try to find some more.
QuoteI'm sure as hell going to move down the road some and then wait them out rather than stick in the same place for more more than five or six minutes. In my area you are going to get busted big time if you stick around for very long. Had it happen too many times to play around with them.
Greenside, that is very good advice. If you have no plans on killing them Right Away, howl and move if the country allows. Staying put gives the upper hand to the coyotes. Sound and solid!
Is there anyone here that calls on a regular basis w/out any intention of taking them if they come in? I do and I'll tell ya why.......
Quote from: KillerCaller! on September 30, 2007, 07:45:26 PMIs there anyone here that calls on a regular basis w/out any intention of taking them if they come in?
NFW! :noway: No love for coyotes here. We are not brothers or one in spirit. We are both predators & we both will kill lessr predators given the chance.
KC: do the farmers/ranchers know you are doing that? Around here that's a good way to lose your hunting permission. :nofgr:
The only way I might do that is if I was invited to hunt w/ you, on your grounds, & you asked me not to.
(hint, hint :wink: )
Killer,
Just out of curiosity, what howlers are you using for locating(calling)? You mentioned the Killer call and the power howler.
VV, I call/ hunt mainly public land that abuts private land 99% of the time. The land owner's are the government and I don't think they care much. There is exactly one place that I call that is privately owned and that owner likes the coyotes. Gaining permission here is like pulling teeth, although, the entire state is not like that. If I lived 2 1/2 hrs south or north I could probably get access to land, a better population to hunt and would pull the trigger more because the land owners would expect it.
As of now, I really have no vested interest in killing coyotes. I don't do damge work, I don't manage for deer or turkey, I don't make films and the fur isn't worth my time. They are not the easiest to call here so even if I took every one I called in it would number in the mid twenties. I have decided over the last year or so that I can get the same thrill by just calling them in as I can shooting them. If I had some type of stake in the game maybe I would see the point in taking more. I still carry a gun and will, if I want, take one. Otherwise, I just go around ruining the calling for the rest of the people, I guess. The only time I plan on taking one and am dissappointed when I don't is when I am hunting them with a bow. We can finally hunt them from a treestand this year so I may take one or two that way this year. Something new!
Greenside, I use a band of different calls. The PowerHowler, the Cronk KillerCall, a howler that Mr. Cronk made for me (in the vein of the Taylor Special but with a twist), a very small buffalo horn tip call that I made, an E.L.K. Deluxe Cow Elk call and a diaphragm. I also use a Standard and every once in a while, when the wind is up, a Dan Thompson SweetWater Howler that I bought last year after losing my RDH in a swamp. Just about anything that has an open reed or latex on it.
KC: you can kill everyone you see. They'll make more. ;yes; :laf:
I do sure agree w/ ya calling them in is the real thrill! :eyebrow:
KC
Thanks, just wondering what you used. Sometime the look great and sound great howlers are not real effective for locating. At least in my area. Although most could be effective for calling, I think locator howlers need some cajones in order to consistently initiate howl back. Why do those cute little cheerleaders have such big megaphones? :confused: :wo:
"Why do those cute little cheerleaders have such big megaphones?"
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Dennis,
Because HOOTERS RULE. :innocentwhistle:
Hooter's, howler's and and shotguns!
Greenside, I like to use a call that is loud, long lasting and weatherproof. I had to drill out a RedDesert after a long day in the snow and drizzle. The next day it had shrunk so much that the mouthpiece wouldn't go in any more.
One reason, besides sound quality and versatility, that I like Mr. Cronk's calls so much is that they are weatherproof. A St. Bernard could slobber all over one and that reed would still not lock up and it will never lose it's luster. Compact, LOUD! What more can a guy ask for?
The Power Howler sounds great but howling with the leaves up it doesn't travel well. The dead of night is when I like to use th PH. At that time it seems to travel much better. The DThompson calls are nice and loud but that wood, to me, is not sealed well. I have resealed nearly every call I have that is wood because I know it's gonna see some crazy swamp and snow action.
KillerCaller,
How far do you think that Power howler reaches? And how much do you think sound quality matters compared to how loud the call is?
Also how do you compare electronics volume compared to the loudness of a hand call? (Coyote vocalizations) And the sound quality of a electronic call compared to a hand call? (Coyote Vocalization)
Brent
To tell the truth KeeKee I have never been at the receiving end of a PH. How far? Far enough on a good day! When the wind is up maybe not enough ooomph.
Sound quality as to loudness? I may not be answering this the way you expected because I am at work and typing and thinking too quickly but...
When I get back home I may have a better answer!
The latex howlers seem to have a leg up on the reeded calls just for pure ease of use. It all depends on who's at the receiving end of the call that counts. What sounds good and loud to me at the time may sound like hell 100 yards out. The coyotes and fox I have called in with the Killer Call tell me that it sounds pretty damn good. The Power Howler as well. I have a Hogsback acrylic call that is loud as hell sounds decent but I have yet to call anything in with it in 2 years.
The loudness and sound quality on the electronics leave a lot to be desired to me. They work well enough but it seems from the ones I have used and heard they seem a bit one dimensional in the sound. If I had more experience with e-calls I could answer more in depth. I like the pure sound of a quality hand call better but that's just me. More to come when I get home........ Maybe.
QuoteHow far do you think that Power howler reaches?
It depends on conditions and topography, of course. Higher pitched sounds don't travel as far as lower pitched sounds so it depends on that as well. In prime conditions in my area maybe 1/4 to 1/2 mile, maybe.
QuoteAnd how much do you think sound quality matters compared to how loud the call is?
Sound quality is sound quality. Most calls have limits, if you exceed those limits quality diminishes. A call that is loud and good is better than a call that is not loud enough and good. I can tone it down and call softly on a naturally loud call and retain the quality but can't make a medium call louder than it is and retain quality. Unless, as Greenside brought up, I carry around a pretty cheerleader's megaphone.
QuoteAlso how do you compare electronics volume compared to the loudness of a hand call?
Not having used or heard all e-calls available on the market I would not know exactly. From the ones that I have heard, certain hand calls would blow them out of the water and others maybe not. Quality is there on many I have heard but lacking in others.
QuoteAnd the sound quality of a electronic call compared to a hand call? (Coyote Vocalization)
I really don't like coyote vocalizations on e-calls. They sound a bit phony to me, I don't know why.
If you set an e-call, a hand caller and a real coyote out in a field 9 out of 10 people could probably pick the hand caller and e-caller out as fakes. Why? Nothing beats good old fashioned soft tissue for making howls. Some calls and callers are better than others so it depends on who it is and what they are using.
Just my opinion. KC Smothers Brother
Good answers KC!
What about the rest of you guys? What your thoughts on these questions?
Brent
:confused: What was the question? :confused: :biggrin:
JD
Never used a power howler but I've sat next to one in use and they do sound very good. I'm sure it it could be heard a mile or more on a dead calm 0 degree December morning here. But any wind at all will cut that down fast.
"And how much do you think sound quality matters compared to how loud the call is?"
It matters a lot to me anyway. Sounds need to reach way out there in this country a lot of the time, so I like a howler that won't fade out, lock up, or break up when both lungs are put to it. I want the sound to be as good at full air pressure as it is with half. I'm a firm believer in "the louder the better" as long as the call is tuned properly.
"Also how do you compare electronics volume compared to the loudness of a hand call?"
Again, concerning coyote vocalizations, the only howls I've used from electronics is out of a WT, but I don't think any hand call can match the volume. But if you want to compare the WT to a real coyote....it fails miserably. :biggrin:
"And the sound quality of a electronic call compared to a hand call? (Coyote Vocalization)"
Still just WT, but the sounds are much better by comparison even at max volume. But this is where my complaint with electronics is. The electronic howling loops my caller has are of course, programed and repetitious. I don't think coyotes distinguish repetition whatsoever, so it works fine, but it's just not that fun. Sure there's lots of different variations available on the machine, but they're still just repetitious howls. It's just a personal preference thing, but I use my howler for everything from cottontail sounds to long range howling. It makes it more fun to be able to mix it up.
Brad
I am curious why a loud call is so important, or why so many think it is important?
A coyote can hear far better than we can. So why is volume such a consideration in a hand call? How many tmes have you lip squeaked a coyote in from 100 or 200 yards out? They have great hearing. Unless the wind is blowing your sound off behind you, is volume in a hand call really that im[ortant?
In a howler, I think volume does only one thing - makes the coyote think you are much closer than you might otherwise be and invokes an agressive teritorial response - ala the Bill Martz Theory of howling with his WT caller. But what does that do to the subordiante coyotes? What kind of response do you think it imparts in them? I've seen coyotes react to the WT caller. I remember on big - really big - one that came in hot and fast looking for a fight, and another that just barely showed itself on the far edge of a field and stood around very nervous.
Now, this is all based on hunting where I hunt. I dont hunt places where you can see them coming from 5 miles away - an exageration but you understand my point. I do however hunt one large area of about 10,000 acres that is all fields and small wood lots joined by fence rows and creek bottoms. If you howl there, you best be ready to sit a good long while because if they are coming, they are going to wind there way to you through the avalable cover and it may take awhile. If you go moving, they will see you and be gone. (expereince is a hard teacher)
So I think your calls, especially when it comes to volume, have to be tailored to the type of counrty you hunt, and the coyote population as well.
Al
I actually was thinking the same thing the other day when I did a quick stand for Fox. I think I will try my distress sounds at a lower volume for a while. I will try not to give the 200 pound rabbit impression. Maybe that will allow the less dominant ones to feel a little more at ease to respond. That coyote on the field edge that you are talking about Al, I think that is more than often what we deal with around here.
I am also gonna try more bird distress this season to.
Out here in this wide open badland country the coyotes are quite a reach and not easy to get to. I'd have to pass on a lot of stands without the volume to reach out there. On a calm day about anything will work, but if there's any wind at all chances of getting sound to those coyotes quickly diminishes when trying to get sound 1/2 mile or more away. A calling partner 50 yards down wind and over the next hill will only hear flashes of the sound a lot of the time, so a lot of volume is necessary to break through the wind and contour of the land here. Howls I crank up, distress sounds I start less than what I think I need and try to get by with the lowest setting I think I'll need. Last year I had a rabbit or skunk sound turned up to cut the wind and a young coyote slipped in right up to the juniper looking for the speaker under the tree. I saw a tail then had to wait for him to come back around to shoot him. He never saw it coming...I don't think he found the speaker either but the high volume didn't phase him. I don't use the aggressive howls on that caller. I like the younger female ones best. I shut off the howls when they get inside 100 yards, I didn't notice any aggressive nature with the singles it howled in, but I'm sure the February pairs were looking to fight it out. I hope that explains high volume use a little. It's just the nature of the beast here. But I've had nothing but good luck with it.
Brad
I figured that was what you were going to say Brad. And I understand it a bit but only having seen pictures and videos it makes it hard to relate too.
Here, a high volume from an E caller will cause echos in the small dips and valleys. It just does not sound natural. I can't remember too many hand calls causing that effect through. THe howler I got from you will do it in places as will some crow calls, but the distress calls all seen to fall short of creating the echo.
Calling tatics are extreemly dependant on where you live and hunt, at least in my opinion. And as a call maker it reallly helps to hear what guys need and want in a call when they hunt in a place different than you do. It also helps to take calls outside and blow them. They sound a lot different in the woods than they sometimes do in the shop.
One of these days I am going to go set my digital vocie recorder up at the range at different distances to see what my calls sound like 50 yards to 200 yards away. I can get out on our 3 D archery course during the week and put it in the woods and then call from one of the stakes to see how the trees and brush affects the sound. I bet that will show some interesteing information.
I'm also curious as to why a coyote, which can hear a mouse scratching undrer 2 feet of snow is not bothered by an extreemly loud distress sound comng from a speaker, and as many of us have seen, will even sometimes come right up next to the speaker and not seem to be bothered by the volume. It does not seem to hurt their ears or even sound unnatural to them, or so it would seem.
Al
THO, as a callmaker and hunter I am sure you know this, but just because you have a call that is inherently loud does not mean you have to lean into it each and every time. The volume is there if you need it but most of the time, with me atleast, the calling is at medium to high volume, not LOUD. As I said earlier though, I like to have the extra there if I feel I need it.
I carry a BUNCH of calls on me when hunting so I use calls that are mouse squeak low, bird singing soft to calls that are HellFighter loud. Again, what is considered loud to my ear may not make it past the next line of trees. Also, I find myself calling much quieter at night than in the day as the echo effect seems much greater at night.
I have called medium for 15 minutes and then called, what I consider loud for 5 more minutes and had coyotes and fox show. Did they come in to the medium calling and just happen to show up when I got loud or did they show up because they could finally hear it? I don't know, but I do know that the 245 lb rabbit didn't scare them off.
245 lbs :huh:
When someone ask how important is volume in a call, the answer must be tailored to what the caller is trying to achieve, which in many cases is determined by the type of terrain the caller is calling in.
Volume can only do three things for us.
One, buck the wind, two, reach way out there to draw in coyotes from great distances and three, create the illusion of proximity to the coyote, which is sometimes related to number two,
We have to keep in mind that coyotes hear far better than we do, far better than we can probably imagine they do.
When trying to buck the wind and reach way out there, volume is necessary to overcome the environment we are calling in. In this case, we need to take into account the environmental conditions that we have no control over, and volume becomes very important. But we also need to understand that not all places where coyotes are called are subject to these conditions. And therefore, depending on what we are trying to achieve with our calling, volume may not always be a good thing.
When trying to create the illusion of proximity to a coyote, or making him think that dinner is RIGHT HERE, volume is the most important aspect of our calling. I don't think a coyote can put two and two together and say to himself "wow, I've been after this rabbit for over a mile now and I don't seem to be getting any closer than I was 10 minutes ago. I might be getting duped here". Instead, the coyote's response has been triggered by what he perceives to be a meal that is close by and he continues to respond until that stimuli goes away. Creating the illusion of proximity can be very effective when calling from a tree stand where you are going to be sitting for some time. The more coyotes you can reach the better, and since your are staying put you wont spook them by moving.
But what if you hunt small wood lots on the ground?
If a call is loud, it stands to reason that more coyotes will hear it than a soft call. If more coyotes hear the louder call, then it must also stand to reason that more coyotes will respond to that call.
We have to ask ourselves "Is that always good?" And I think the answer might be, "Not always"
When we hunt small wood lots or areas of dense cover, a coyote that hears a call from a long ways away and responds may take a lot longer to get to the call because of the terrain he has to navigate. If while he is on the way to our stand, we then decide to move to our next stand, and he sees or hears us and spooks, the chances of getting that coyote to respond again are greatly diminished. This might be why you often hear eastern coyote hunters say they are more successful sitting on stand longer than their western counterparts.
The point is, in the discussion of weather a loud call is good or not needs to be tailored to the specific response we want to create in a coyote based on the area we are hunting in and the tactics we are using.
When we wonder if coyotes can hear our medium or soft calls, ask why do we park our trucks a quarter of a mile or more away from our hunting stands, take great pains to not slam doors, make a lot of noise, or talk, and we sneak into our stands like snipers on a mission, if the coyote can't hear our calls anyway?
I remember laying in the snow on a ridge about 300 yards from a deer yard one winter day watching for the coyotes that were raising havoc with the wintering deer. My hunting partner saw them before I did, and all he did was go "psst" to get my attention. The lead coyote stopped dead in his tracks and looked right at us. He was a good quarter mile away but he heard that sound.
They have phenomenal hearing.
Now, when it comes to calls, not all loud calls can be played softly, nor can all medium voiced calls be played loudly. Nor should we even try to play them that way. We should carry an assortment of calls that will meet the situations we are going to face in a day of calling. If we try to get by with just one type of call, we limit ourselves greatly.
Take Sceery calls for example. Some of them take a lot of air to play. You just cannot get them to play well softly. The Tally Ho is another call that is not designed to be played softly. Even the famous Tweety calls by Verminator come in two styles, long range and regular. Crit'r calls come in different volumes also, and the howler even has removable extensions to make them louder or softer depending on the situation. All which goes to show that reed thickness in both open and closed reed calls determines how a call will respond when blown. And not all reeds work with low air pressure, and not all work with high air pressure. Then there is barrel length, bore diameter and mouth piece design (of closed reed calls) which also play a huge factor in how well a call behaves when blown loudly or softly.
All I am saying is that we should not make blanket statements or ask questions that have no right answer. It does the new guys more harm than good.
I can't count all the guys who have wanted to go coyote hunting up here for he first time who showed up with 22-250's with 12 power scopes and 26 inch barrels on them because someone told them that was a good coyote gun. Might as well put a bayonet on the end of the barrel and stab the coyotes when they come in. On the other hand my 12 gauge might not be the best choice out where Brad hunts.
The same goes with calls. Everyone wants a loud raspy call, and most times up here, a loud raspy call is going to give you a lot of exercise except in your shooting finger.
And no I don't say this because I make calls and want to sell loud and soft calls. I say this because I have blown enough loud calls up here to know that unless I am going to sit on one spot for the day, volume is not the ticket for the thicket.
Al
Good post, THO. I guess I didn't read the post before last of yours all the way thru. I would love to hear the results of your voice recorder test.
Yes FnF, 6'2" 245 lbs. Not all of us have a petite figure. :nofgr: It's a solid 245, not the dumpy Dough boy kind. Thanks. :whew:
"volume is not the ticket for the thicket."
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Very true. Back in the thick stuff, you are usually better off if you use medium volume for coyotes or bobcats. High volume causes too much echo I think. :wink:
I think THO hit the nail pretty much on the head. It depends on what type of cover you hunt more than anything.
We done some testing with the kee's howler and the power howler mouth piece. It can be heard allot further than you think just by the human ears. I know a Coyote can hear many, many times more than we can. With standard air pressure, I could hear the howler from over a half a mile away, with the leaves on the tree's. Day or night didn't seem to make any difference at all. At night we have had coyotes answer from several miles away many times. I cant see were one could need anymore than a couple miles no matter were you hunted.
The last trip out we were on a farm trying to get some coyotes to answer. When we went in we talked to the farmer and let him know wear we were going to be and what we were doing. We tired and got zero to answer. As we were leaving the farmer stopped me and JD and asked if we heard the coyotes, we said no. He was setting on the porch and could hear the coyotes answering the howls from down on the river behind us. It was far enough that we could not hear them responding. And was several miles behind us with all the tree's full of leaves.
I think the sound travels allot further then we think. How far, I'm not sure but a long ways. We called several coyotes last year out west in AZ in the thick cover, across washes, that came from a long ways off. With nothing more than coaxing sounds, from the Black Bird distress. We done the same thing here is Ohio, open areas and thick cover. This is not a loud call at all and it is high pitched, witch means it wont travel as far. These were all during the day and in late winter though.
I think the terrain has more to do with it than anything. Hills, valleys, ditches, washes, not so much the tree's and leaves. But we have called several here in the hills on gas and power lines that I know came from several miles away. And we don't have no small hills here....lol
As for the sound of vocalizations from a e- caller. We have done well locating with vocalizations from the FX5. But I will admit we don't use the e-caller much on stand for vocalizations, other than the testing we done for sounds. We both carry howlers on stand and would rather use them. Just personal preference I guess. The volume is nice though. We can crank the vocalizations on the e-caller and really reach out there with them.
I like all my sounds weather its a hand call or a e-caller to sound as real as I can get them, no matter what I haft to do. I think it does make a difference. I think all calls will call critters but I think a good caller can give himself a edge if you uses great sounds. Urgency, emotion, and death can be added to the calls to make them the best they can be and there not the same cadence all the time. And they are not repetitive as those on a e-caller. I not a standard turn on the e-caller guy and let it play. I will run multiple sounds on a stand weather its hand calls or e-callers.
I also start all my stands off soft. Even out west, I always start off soft and work my way up. In thick tight cover to me its a must!