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     Wv_yoter and I attended the Byron South seminar at Sportsman's Warehouse in Pittsburgh today.  This was my first such seminar so I don't have anything to compare it to.  In my opinion it was an excellent seminar.  About 75 people were present.  The seminar was sponsored by Sportsman's Warehouse and Foxpro and was free.   Also present at the seminar was Mike Dillon of Foxpro.  The seminar was scheduled for two hours, but Byron and Mike were very gracious and stayed over for about 45 minutes to answer further questions and talk.
     Byron used a PowerPoint presentation to guide his seminar.  He suggested that if anyone had questions that we should ask them at any point during the seminar.  He had several video clips to illustrate points.  I think the big crowd exceeded Sportsman's Warehouse expectations as there were not enough chairs for everyone and lots of people had to remain standing through the seminar.
     Following are some of the salient points as I remember them.
     Byron explained that he is from East Texas which has terrain and plant cover very similar to areas East of the Mississippi.  His video "Hunting in the Thick Stuff" was shot in this part of Texas.  Not as many coyotes as we might imagine.
     Know your hunting area.   Hunt places where there are coyotes.  Don't waste your time in areas where you aren't sure there are coyotes.   Scout.  Talk to landowners, etc.
      Know your gear.  Be sure you can put down the fur when you do get one in.  Don't just practice shooting from the bench.  Practice from the sticks.  Be able to shoot quickly.
      Setup.    What you do before you begin calling is much more important than what you do after beginning to call.  Slip into your stand location quietly.  Keep movement to a minimum.  Wind.  Byron used the analogy of a pie to explain using the wind to your advantage.  Think of yourself in the middle of the pie.  Downwind of you is a slice of the pie making up about 20 percent of the pie.  Be sure you keep that slice of the pie toward the area you least expect the coyote to come in.  Be aware of thermals.  Scent settles into valleys early in the morning and rises as the day warms up.  Try to setup with the sun behind you.  Try to stay elevated.  Byron suggests stands of 15 to 20 minutes.  Probably 85% of coyotes will respond in that time frame.
      Cover scents and misting.  Byron hasn't used either for the past 15 years.  The coyotes sense of smell is so acute that he feels cover scents and misting aren't much help.  Use the wind!  However if cover scents and misting gives you confidence then by all means try it. 
       Calling.    Byron prefers to use prey distress sounds early in his stands.  If nothing responds you haven't lost anything.  You haven't scared anything away.  Later in the stand he goes to a few lonesome howls.  He usually finishes with KiYis.  He suggested using several different sounds.  Try to find the one that hits their hot button.  These sequences aren't set in stone.  He may vary the sequence depending on the circumstances.  On hard to call dogs he suggested doing some lonesome howls, some assembly barks and howls, then shut up for quite a while.   He suggested running the e-caller continuously as opposed to 2 to 3 minute breaks in between sequences.  He feels this will keep responding dogs coming.  Doesn't want to give them time to think about the situation too much.  Byron feels that coyotes may respond to prey distress sounds even if they are not hungry.
     Foxpro features.  Byron spent a little time covering the features of the FoxPro e-callers.  If you are still reading this you probably already know this information, I won't repeat it here.    The FoxPro guys did have a new Grey Fox sound that we listened to.  We also got to see the new Scorpion call.  FoxPro raffled of a Jack in the Box decoy and passed out ball caps to the first 50 to grab them.  They also had 10% off coupons valid at Sportsman's Warehouse til Jan. 31.
      I was impressed by this seminar and hope I have summarized it accurately.  My memory isn't so great sometimes.  I hope wv_yoter will jump in here and contribute his take on the seminar.  Others in attendance should also feel free to chime in.

Jim   
     

Jim, I think you summed it up pretty good. It was very well done and the guys from FoxPro were very helpful, answering questions for at least forty five minutes after the seminar was over.There seemed to be several guys from PPHA there also.

Im jealous, sounds like you had a awesome time! I wish I could have went to that. I have a BASS PRO but its 2 hours away. :iroll:

QuoteByron explained that he is from East Texas which has terrain and plant cover very similar to areas East of the Mississippi.  His video "Hunting in the Thick Stuff" was shot in this part of Texas.  Not as many coyotes as we might imagine.

BS. There have been coyotes in east Texas since the beginning of time. There have not been coyotes  east of the Mississippi until recent years. Also East Texas don't look like nothing compared to the East USA. How many Mountains are in East Texas???

Don't believe me ask a real Biologist that studies coyotes and ask are there more coyotes in east Texas or East of the Mississippi.

Byron took the opportunity to cash in on the new Eastern hunter. In the video hunting the thick stuff he continually said HERE IN THE EAST trying to give the impression he was in the EAST yeah east Texas. It would be like me being here in North East Alabama and keep saying "Here in the North east Bla Bla Bla.

He took the same coyotes he has been calling in for years in the wide open and said hey lets go down to them there woods and call them to show the easterners how to call. You see not quiet the same concept when many of us have a low population and only woods to hunt in.

Now under the Know your hunting area, Know your gear, Setup, Cover scents and misting, and  Calling I have not seen one thing you could not get from right here or any other coyote forum.

I did noticed the people that talk him up as being so good are the ones that know so little. This is not a personal attack on you as an individual. It just grips the ass of guys that have put in there time and have worked so hard here in the real east. "That is EAST of the Mississippi to have someone come in and try and tell us how it is here.

Think about it he makes a living coyote hunting? He travels all around the country coyote hunting? Why the hell wouldn't he have filmed his Hunting the thick stuff here in the real East instead of every other sentence saying here in the east when actually he was in east TEXAS. :readthis:

Do a search on PM for his Hunting the thick stuff and also think about the other people at the seiner and think of how many are good competent coyote hunters that reply to him.

I was alright with Byron and his video's when he was hunting coyotes when he started hunting eastern coyote hunters to make a buck I started not liking him so much. When you become a successful Eastern coyote hunter you will better understand what I am saying.

And that my friends, is the God's Honest Truth.

Al

Quote from: LBLDOG on January 07, 2008, 03:19:15 PM
Im jealous, sounds like you had a awesome time! I wish I could have went to that. I have a BASS PRO but its 2 hours away. :iroll:

Which one is that LBL?

Big Kudos to my little buddy CCP. Byron South would be hard pressed to find a coyote turd in my neck of the woods, much less a coyote. However, he's always welcome to come and show this dumb, ignorant hillbilly how to hunt my home turf........... :wink: :biggrin:

QuoteI did noticed the people that talk him up as being so good are the ones that know so little. This is not a personal attack on you as an individual. It just grips the ass of guys that have put in there time and have worked so hard here in the real east.

I don't post much, but I would find it hard to take it any other way. :shrug:

 Richard, you nailed it.  :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats:

Eric, it is not an attack on you or anyone else that has recently joined the sport. Please don't take it that way. It's just that some of us met Byron on the net many years ago about th time he started making videos. Byron is pretty danged sharp when it comes to marketing his work. It's the ethics we question. At the time of the videos release it was touted as being done in the east as in east of the Mississippi. We still remember that and it still gets our dander up.

There was another fellow , not quite as sharp, tried the same stunt a year or so ago. He was not as lucky as Byron.

When you see such videos advertised ask where they were done if you can. What types of terrain might be in them. With Keekee's and Rich's videos you are likley to see something you can relate to. Hills hollows and flatland are all represented in them . A variety of pastures,  crop fields and hill country are all there. I don't yet know how much detail on setup Rich is going to get into, but I am sure you are likely to see something you can relate too. I can find ground here that looks like east Texas if I look hard enough. Thing is there is a larger variety of terrain types and other problems we have to deal with . Jimmie

this is not a attack on anyone but this same debate is going on in a pa hunting forums and two guys I consider great coyote hunters said the same thing.  coincidence? 

here is a linky then to the other debate

http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=477762#Post477762

Frog,
there was things Byron tryed to pull off that i didn't like but, after it was brought to his atention it was worked out.
Byron put's on a really good seminar , there are many tactics he talks about and many thing he said that make sense for hunting eastern coyote ((take from his presentation and apply it)) to your neck of the woods that's all you can do pal, he put on a free seminar for guy's that are new to the game FREE being the key word. every body has a different opinion on hunting technic. get out there try what you learned and as time go's on integrate what you know , what you learn and what you going to learn to hunting your area .I for one Believe Mr. South to be a strait  shooter , a good guy and a he11 of a hunter. just like most of the guy you meet on the net, there  have been things i didn't like that he done to make a buck but i still see him as a good guy and alway have

George

 Jimmiein ky

Wow,, things change A :confused: :confused:

I don't remember these feeling you have NOW about Byron and his sale tactics being brought up in a  9 page thread we had on another sight that you chimd in on  :confused: :confused:

well like coyote hunting , i guess things change with every set up  :eyebrow:

Richard , you didn't offend me. I am new to coyote hunting, so I had no idea about what happened on PM when Byron was releasing his video.

I went to see Byron 2 years ago. Not only was he a good speaker but he took all the time necessary to answer any question you had until you understood. Then he moved on. He's a very good salesman & from the one video I've seen a purdy good shot. I think what impressed me the most wasn't his eagerness to make a buck for selling videos but rather his passion for passing along the info that he does to try to make everybody a better coyote hunter. That may go along with the "very good salesman" comment I don't know. I haven't been around him much to judge his character. But I do think he wants us all to be better predator hunters.

As far as East coyotes VS West coyotes,,  :shrug:  ,, I guess you just gotta find where they are & feed em what they're hungry for while learning to be patient & practicing your setups & shooting skills. I know that sounds all too easy but thats just the way I take it from fellas that shoot quite a few every year.

WELL SAID :bowingsmilie:

Filming in PA... interesting.  Wonder how many they got on tape.

Quote from: bigben on January 08, 2008, 08:34:15 AM
this is not a attack on anyone but this same debate is going on in a pa hunting forums and two guys I consider great coyote hunters said the same thing.  coincidence? 

here is a linky then to the other debate

http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=477762#Post477762

That's funny Bigben  :roflmao:
Not surprising, but funny.

Byron's a good shot....that's all I'll give him. I've known Byron long before his first video ever came out, and I dont have the time of day for him.

I guaran dang tee ya.........I don't think not one damn person I know of is an expert at coyote hunting. PERIOD!!!
To include the GREAT ONE HIMSELF............. :pout:

QuoteI guaran dang tee ya.........I don't think not one damn person I know of is an expert at coyote hunting. PERIOD!!!

I could not agree more Bop!


But there are several out there that are walking books of knowledge on Coyotes.


Brent

Goerge, if that is the thread I am thinking of , you were working up an argument over hunting tactics, not ethics. Big diference. Because of that argument of yours I now understand that reading and seeing are two diferent things. Not everything can be explained so all can understand them. If they can see something in a video they can relate too it helps.

I don't see what I do much diferent from what any western hunter does. I am able to relate what I see to my hunting just as they do. Coyote's have habits just like any other creature. They still relate to terrain features here as well as there. I do however have to deal with the human population that is everywhere we look and how the coyote moves around it. And often enough I have to be able to change and adapt just as the coyote does.

You have to learn to put together all the clues they leave. It's not rocket science or magic. You have to put in the work to learn how to do it. You have to learn how they work in your area. All anyone can do is give you guidelines to go by. I myself am learning all the time. Things beyond my control make changes and I have to learn how to deal with them. It may be a series of new houses or a change in hunting pressure to an area, I have to learn how those changes affect the animals I am after at the time. It's a constant learning proccess for anyone who takes up the sport . Jimmie

Never really been a bs fan but I try to keep peace where I go anymore.  I was at his talk Sunday and he did a good job.  Pretty straight forward approach... don't remember hearing the east TX comment...but ya tend not hear some things after 30 + years of playing the drums.   I like his one video and I give him credit for making a living at being in the coyote business.  Do I think he is a good person....not too sure about that..... As far as filming in PA....good luck its not easy  :wo:.......

Quote from: CCP on January 07, 2008, 09:25:53 PM

QuoteByron explained that he is from East Texas which has terrain and plant cover very similar to areas East of the Mississippi.  His video "Hunting in the Thick Stuff" was shot in this part of Texas.  Not as many coyotes as we might imagine.

BS. There have been coyotes in east Texas since the beginning of time. There have not been coyotes  east of the Mississippi until recent years. Also East Texas don't look like nothing compared to the East USA. How many Mountains are in East Texas???

Don't believe me ask a real Biologist that studies coyotes and ask are there more coyotes in east Texas or East of the Mississippi.

Byron took the opportunity to cash in on the new Eastern hunter. In the video hunting the thick stuff he continually said HERE IN THE EAST trying to give the impression he was in the EAST yeah east Texas. It would be like me being here in North East Alabama and keep saying "Here in the North east Bla Bla Bla.

Right on CCP and THO. Texas, or any part of it is not even close to what we have here in the REAL east. I watched his video and the tips geared toward REAL eastern hunters are laughable at best!!

He doesn't even come close to understanding the eastern coyote or how to hunt them.

I would love to see him come out here and try to hunt like he does out there, I would bet that he wouldn't get much video.

Quote from: CritterBuster on January 08, 2008, 07:19:44 PM
.  Do I think he is a good person....not too sure about that  :wo:.......

If you could hear some of the stuff he has pulled on other people you would know that he is NOT a good person.

I will just leave it at that.

browning204 where is the real east????  Does the Mississippi divide it???  I know bs is an id10t  I was being polite......

I guess it depends on the person as far as where they wanna call themselves. But I am speaking from a New England stand point because that is where I am.  I have been told that East Texas does have more vegitation and less Critters than other parts of Texas  but the fact still remains. It is not even close to the thick stuff, hills, weather patters and WAY WAY less coyotes #'s

I mean come on, Even Eastern based companies film their little plug videos out in Texas, what does that tell you.

As far back as I can remember, the so called dividing line has always been the Mississippi River....which goes no where near Texas, nor does does any water or part within, flow into Texas.

Quote from: FinsnFur on January 08, 2008, 07:58:11 PM
As far back as I can remember, the so called dividing line has always been the Mississippi River....which goes no where near Texas, nor does does any water or part within, flow into Texas.

Correct.

According to the biologists in my state ( for what it is worth) coyotes have been in NH since the 60's or 70's. The came here only after crossing into Canada near the great lakes and after mating with the grey Wolf.

That right there will tell you that our coyotes act way differently than the little mangy poodles that the have in Texas.

As I said, I would love for him to come out here and get skunked. That is something that I would pay for! Even if it was free.

Actually, the first verified coyote in NH was taken in 1944.

Prior to the 1800's, there are no reports of coyotes ever being in NH.   


Al

my dad took his first PA coyote in 1963

As a new coyote hunter I definitely have a lot to learn and I look to this forum and it's members for all my information and not to video's shot out west. I 100% agree with CCP on hunting eastern coyote's is not the same as hunting them west of the big river.  I have hunted coyote's in Colorado on the border of Roosevelt national forest , It IMO was more like shooting fish in a barrel. We would see coyote's just about everywhere we went with no calling , just drive around and stop when you see um. (kinda boring after a while) :shrug:   Not at all like hunting here in Ky where you have to earn your coyote.  :readthis:  

And as for reading whats going elsewhere on other forums  :confused: (WHY) All a person needs is right here at FNF.

besides : I would feel like I was cheating or something!!!! :biggrin:

I just like to add, there are many place in the west i have called were(A)coyote was hard to come by.

my next question maybe a little off topic  but what do you guys think
I have my uneducated theory why the coyote migration is so slow to appear in the far east, and have posted them many times, but why do you guys think we have such less coyotes then the rest of the country

also i think we are starting to call more and more every year, we have had coyotes for a long time but they are getting more callable each year ,, why

I dont think that there are that many more coyotes out west compared to the east, their just easier to see out in the open. We dont have any 20 or 30 thousand acre fields here in the bluegrass.  They have alot more places to hide and seem to be alot sneekier in the woods and hills. 

I wouldn't almost bet there's more coyotes in just south Texas & West Texas then there is in Pennsylvania,
New Jersey ,New York, Delaware & Marryland combind :biggrin:

Last time I talked with a biologist( which was a few years ago ) He gave me some info about what the population is doing. In some parts of the east we have a population that matches what they say New mexico has, 1 for each half mile. Hard to believe that at times. But I have seen at least one population peak and crash in the LBL in just the last few years. It is just above half of what it was two years ago. How often does the population in an area peak and crash? How many areas are nearing a peak cycle? What makes them crash?  I don't hear the western hunters talk about parvo or distemper too much but we talk about it often enough here in the east. I have also seen more mange than normal in the last couple of years. Winters have not been cold enough to cull the population of fleas and mites the last few years in my area.

But also as Securpro stated we don't have the section sized open areas here either. To see an open area anywhere near that size I have to go to the river bottoms . What we have is trees and brush and plenty of it. How many times have you heard a hunter with some experience tell the newb to circle his setup in the snow. How many have we all called over the years we never knew anything about?


We have a population of animals that see humans nearly every day if not everyday.  I wonder how often a coyote on a ten section western ranch sees a human. What about the government lands out there?

I think these are the things that make hunting coyotes so dificult for us here. We know so little about them and are still learning. I am still asking a lot of questions I don't have anwsers to yet . I never really know if I just get lucky or am fairly good at hunting these things. I have seasons when I cant seem to do anything wrong and others when it seems I can't do anything right. Jimmie

QuoteHow often does the population in an area peak and crash? How many areas are nearing a peak cycle?

Even in New Hampshire you can see poipulation fluctuations. 

The only data we have to go on, that which collected by the state, are the trapping numbers.   But they tell a story.

In 1989, we had more trappers than anytime since in New Hampshire, and they trapped 169 coyotes.

Now I believe that all coyotes trapped, or at least the vast majority of them trapped in NH are incidental.  I do not, and have never spoken to a single trapper who targets coyotes here. 

In 2005, the last year we have stats for, they tripled the number of coyotes trapped with a decrease of 33% fewer trappers.

looking at the state wide numbers for the last 20 years, you can see the population growing over all, but you can also see what appear to be periods of decline.

Between 1993 and 1997 the number of coyotes trapped increased each year

In 1998 and 1999, they trapped 25% less, and that was with a comparable number of trapper to the previous 3 years.

As for the population growing, again, all we have to go on are incidental captures by trappers.  But in 1990, they trapped 155 coyotes,   

In 2003, they trapped 716. 

I think in 2004 and 2005 we had one of those population declines because they trapped 600 in 2004 and 457 in 2005.

The numbers will bounce back this year if history reapeats itself. 

There is still plenty of room for them to expand thier numbers here in NH, but if you look at it, to go from 155 trapeed in 1990 to 700 plus just 13 years later, that is a pretty big boom.   

I would bet that within the next 10 years, the population will continue to expand, and hunting in NH will get much better.

What is even more interesting to me, is that they say the coyotes came from the west, through Canada, and down into NH.

Coyotes must travel the same path as the Canadian Gray Wolf, and they have said for years that the Gray Wolf is not in NH because of the St Laurence Seaway, which is a natural barrior to their migration to the south.  But the coyotes seem to have made it just fine  :) It is only within the last 3 or 4 years that they have admitted that the Canadian Gray Wolf has been crossing the Seaway when it freezes, and that there is a small population of wolves in the great north woods.   

Al




Reference material  can be found here.  Scoll to the end of the report for the NH Fur Bearers Report and trapping number information

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunting/Hunting_PDFs/Wildlife_Harvest_2006.pdf

Quotealso i think we are starting to call more and more every year, we have had coyotes for a long time but they are getting more callable each year ,, why

Not sure, this is just a guess on my part george, there isnt as much game anymore.  Everything from deer to rabbits have diminished up this way.  The only thing I see really striving is turkey.   Maybe they're letting  hunger get the best of them ??  Like I said, just a guess on my part.  I certainly have seen more coyotes than ever before, when you're seeing them in mid day you know something must be changing. 

Oh, I also wanted to add this year is the only time I've ever seen the mange.  Seems quite a few have it up in my neck of the woods, and hopefully my bud Dusty has trapped them all off :)

Why are we calling more?

I think it has to do with several things.  First, calls are getting a lot better.  E calls and hand calls.  Second, eastern hunters are learning how to hunt coyotes.  Thrid, there's just more of them. 

A coyote doesn't need rabbits or deer to live on.  He can get by quite well on small rodents and other small animals that we don't hunt, but when he hears a real meal, it might just get his interest up, so there may be something to the thought that the less game the easier they are to call.

I really think though that is has to do with hunters understanding them better here in the east and the advancement in calls and the population is growing.

AL

It's not just that the calls are getting better, I don't think. Hunters are getting more educated to the variety of sounds and how they work. They are learning to work on various response triggers the coyote has. They are figuring out setup so they see more of them without educating them .

Check your state hunting boards and see how many new callers there are this year. I will bet they have added as many as my own has to the list of crazies that chase the coyote. They are asking a lot of questions and are learning faster than we did.

And another thing you can add to the list that keeps our numbers from growing so quickly. About ten percent of the deer hunters out there will shoot evry coyote they see. Another twenty will shoot the one they have seen a few too many times during the season. Just here around the house I estimate they took out 40 % of the coyotes in the neighborhood this year. They are blaming the coyote for a lot of the game they are not seeing . Was a time when they let th coyote walk because they were afraid of spooking the deer with he shot, not so much any more. Jimmie

Silencer,,,
I know some guys are complaining about the deer herd but i hunted Pike  3 D and seen lots of deer on just about every trip all 4 of my youth hunters tagged out with 1 taking 3 deer 2 spikes with his bow ( 1 was under 3'') and a doe rifle, another with a 7 pt his brother harvested a spike and one harvest a button buck open day gun.with a total of 6 deer for the kids. I shot a couple here also.  the guys took 4 more the first 3 days of the buck season.
the deer herd is defiantly down but they are there.. And I am one that believes deer are not the main food source for are coyotes. As for turkey, I think are turkey are in as good health  as they ever been, there's more turkey then ever,
In my opinion .

Jimmy,
there are over 1 million hunters ,,, more like 1.4 million guys out in the woods here in PA and I would bet no Moore then 125 coyotes are shot by non coyote hunter in that I mean , deer hunter , rabbit hunters , and bird hunters.
you are right about all the new guys hitting the woods for coyotes I would say in PA from what I seen predator hunter number may have at the least doubled just in 07.. and coyotes are getting harvest, but ! i think if someone was to crash the numbers it would be that the harvest coyote numbers are do to just having that many more guy after then,, I don't feel that the guys like me out there are killing any more now then we did 5 years ago.. just my opinion ,,,

this is not directed towards anyone . just something to think about

I am going to put some numbers up ,
I hunted 3 days in Maine in 07 were I made at least 30 sets and seen and harvest 1 coyote . Then the first trip to Texas in 07 was for 3 days and 4 nights  where I called in and harvest 17 coyote 3 bobcat 2 badgers. then the secant trip to Texas in 07 was for 1 week I called to the gun no less then 25 coyotes and 5 cats. then I spent 15 days in BC in 07 where we took 2 lion's with dogs and 4 coyotes called and killed with the gun.
between ,Pennsylvania , New Jersey, Delaware I would say I called in no less then 15 reds & 2 or 3 grays.  I dont take foxes

Now I will tell you about my year of calling coyote in PA
  I will estimate that have hunted 70 days this year for just coyote in PA,, I figure no less then 500 sets I called in 4 coyote
we killed 2 , wounded 1 got busted on 1 and I am shore there were many that busted me that I didn't see ,, but not that many.

I am a sponge!!!! I will suck up are the knowledge anyone wont's to give me to be a better predator hunter at home...

sorry about rambling on but i am getting ready to hit the hill for another 3 days of calling he in PA ,and it get hard to keep at it at times :argh: so much disapointment it wears on a guy :madd:

My local deer hunters have taken a turn for the worse I guess. Talked to another kid today that took two on his family farm. With most groups running from five to six animals that's a pretty hard hit to the one group. Another group lost the alpha pair and one pup within 30 minutes opening morning. Out of 3 groups around me only one was not touched by deer season. I wonder how many of your rural landowners are doing the same and it's not reported.  And I am hearing about th same thing from neighboring counties and other parts of this one. They took a lot of animals this year here.

But in your area there may be a number of things slowing the population growth. Disease comes to mind as one of the most likely culprits. Parvo or distemper killed a heck of a lot of pups in the LBL last year. A talk with you local vet will tell you if this is a problem in your area. They have been treating a lot of dogs here the last two years for these.

The growing population of humans in the country is getting to be one of my biggest PIA. New houses are popping up all over the place and usually right in a travel lane. Keeps them moving and changing habits from one year to the next.Makes it very hard to kep up with what group is where and or finding them after th move.  I haven't had the time to get out this year as much as I would like. Only been out five times myself. My average is shot to hell too  :nono: Jimmie

Quote from: George Ackley on January 09, 2008, 06:04:44 PM
Jimmy,
there are over 1 million hunters ,,, more like 1.4 million guys out in the woods here in PA and I would bet no Moore then 125 coyotes are shot by non coyote hunter in that I mean , deer hunter , rabbit hunters , and bird hunters.

***********************************

Now I will tell you about my year of calling coyote in PA
  I will estimate that have hunted 70 days this year for just coyote in PA,, I figure no less then 500 sets I called in 4 coyote
we killed 2 , wounded 1 got busted on 1 and I am shore there were many that busted me that I didn't see ,, but not that many.

George, those statistics really shocked me because I just got off the phone (an hour ago) with a guy from PA about him coming up to our Indiana Predator Challenge.  We talked for about 25 minutes... he mentioned calling and killing several coyotes this year, this week actually, and he told me all about the big PA contest that allows both calling and hounding.  He's actually the second person I've spoken too this week about the hunt, but we're booked.

Anyways, after hearing him talking about calling coyotes I found your statistics surprising.  I did a little google search and found some information.  

A 1990 survey indicated 850 coyotes were harvested by those persons buying a furtakers license.

A 1995 survey indicated the annual harvest of coyotes has tripled since the 1990 examination.

In 2005, hunters and trappers  harvested more than 20,000 coyotes statewide, according to agency Game-Take and Fur-Taker Survey results. They can be found almost anywhere: from the suburban sprawl surrounding Philadelphia to the remote ridges of the Alleghenies. There are few areas remaining in the state where coyotes aren't found.


My question is, did you turn those 2 coyotes in to the PA GT & FT survey people in any way?   I've seen numbers posted on several different states and I always wonder WHO TURNS THOSE IN?!   Maybe some states require it... but I'd think those numbers are pretty weak if they're relying on a hunter to notify them somehow.   Maybe I'm wrong... but if they confirmed 20,000 kills there were probably more like 50,000 harvested?  I know they estimate another 15-20% worth of poaching on top of our legal whitetail harvest numbers- so I'm betting such casual (non-mandatory) reporting is a very lowball number.

jarbhunter

The big hunt here has over 4,000 hunter's in it for the 3 day hunt,,,, that's 4,000 participants  , ,,,,

  they kill like 120 coyotes pal, and like under 10 are called  if that!!!

A 1990 survey indicated 850 coyotes were harvested by those persons buying a furtakers license.

question is how many furtakers  lic, did they sell ???
we have 1.4 million guys in the field in PA?????? 850 FOR 12 MOUNTH DONT SOUND TO GOOD
know take a guess how many were call to there deaths out of that 850 :confused:


A 1995 survey indicated the annual harvest of coyotes has tripled since the 1990 examination.

2,500 COYOTES ,, I.4 MILLION hunters still not sounding so good :shrug: and the % of called in one out of them numbers :shrug:

In 2005, hunters and trappers  harvested more than 20,000 coyotes statewide


Trapers - is the key word in the sentince...we have are trapper we do

As for numbers you are reading... I haven't got a clue :confused:
were do they get them but  :readthis:
it may be the same place they get there deer numbers from,,

plain fly's around see's 5 deer in the field, its a 20 Acer's field so there's  1 deer per 5 Acers in the state :roflmao: :roflmao:

As for Game-Take and Fur-Taker Survey must be a trappers thing this is the first i hurd of them or it...

BUT i am to bisy off in the woods doing this :madd: :madd:  to myself to know anybody

George

here are some statistics,,, this is way off topic :eyebrownod:

Pennsylvania's Hunters and Anglers Have a Significant Impact on the Economy Spending $3.5 Billion a Year


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Pennsylvania's 1.4 million hunters and anglers are among the most prominent and influential of all demographic groups, spending more than $3.5 billion a year on hunting and fishing, according to a new report.
The new report, "Hunting and Fishing: Bright Stars of the American Economy ~ A force as big as all outdoors," spotlights the immense impact hunters and anglers have on the economy at the national and state level.

Links: Pennsylvania Fact Sheet

http://www.nssf.org/07report/factsheets/Pennsylvania.pdf

Compare Pennsylvania with Other States

http://www.nssf.org/07report


In Pennsylvania, spending by hunters and anglers directly supports 51,000 jobs, which puts $1.7 billion worth of paychecks into pockets of working residents around the state. Of course, government coffers also benefit -- spending by sportsmen in pursuit of these outdoor activities generates $371 million in state and local taxes.


These latest figures demonstrate that season after season hunters and anglers are driving the economy from big businesses to rural towns, through booms and recessions.
"Because sportsmen enjoy hunting or fishing alone or in small groups, they are overlooked as a constituency and as a substantial economic force," stated Jeff Crane, president of the Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation. "When you compare spending by hunters and anglers to other sectors, their impact on the state's economy becomes more tangible."
Sportsmen support more jobs in Pennsylvania than Penn State University and the Philadelphia Airport combined (51,000 jobs vs. 45,000).


Annual spending by Pennsylvania sportsmen is more than the revenues of York-based BonTon Stores ($3.5 billion vs. $3.1 billion).

Annual spending by Pennsylvania sportsmen is more than the cash receipts from dairy products, cattle, greenhouse/nursery, mushrooms and broilers - the state's top five grossing agricultural commodities ($3.5 billion vs. $3.1 billion).

Pennsylvania sportsmen spend $104 million anually on outboard boats and engines to get out on the water and around the rivers for fishing and hunting.

Pennsylvania sportsmen outnumber the combined populations of Allentown, Erie, Pittsburgh, Reading, and Scranton, two to one (1.4 million vs. 680,297).

More Pennsylvania residents hunt and fish each year than attend Pittsburgh Pirates and Philadelphia 76ers games combined (1.4 million vs. 1.3 million).

The economic stimulus of hunting and fishing equates to an astounding $9.6 million a day being pumped into the state's economy.

"Spending by sportsmen benefits not only the manufacturers of hunting and fishing related products, but everything from local mom and pop businesses to wildlife conservation," noted Doug Painter, president of National Shooting Sports Foundation. "And because most hunting and fishing takes place in rural areas, much of the spending benefits less affluent parts of the state."


On the national level, 34 million sportsmen age 16 and older spent more than $76 billion in 2006, supporting 1.6 million jobs. If a single corporation grossed as much as hunters and anglers spend, it would be among America's 20 largest, ahead of Target, Costco and AT&T. And if all hunters and anglers had voted during the last presidential election, they would have equaled 31 percent of all votes cast. If all hunters and anglers living in Pennsylvania voted, they would have equaled 38 percent of all votes cast in the state.

These statistics are impressive and, if anything, they underestimate the impact of sportsmen since they do not take into account the millions of hunters and anglers under 16 years of age or people who were not able to get out and hunt or fish in 2006. When sportsmen's spending is thought of in business terms and compared to other sectors of the economy, it is quite remarkable. From small rural towns scattered across our country's landscape to the bottom-line of Fortune 500 companies located in major cities, if you take away hunting and fishing you take away the equivalent of a multi-billion dollar corporation.

"It is a fairly simple equation – hunters and anglers mean jobs in states and local communities that have made the effort to maintain their hunting and fishing opportunities," said Crane. "The economic impacts that sportsmen have on state economies should be a wake-up call to state governments to welcome and encourage hunting and fishing in their state."

The report, "Hunting and Fishing: Bright Stars of the American Economy ~ A force as big as all outdoors," was produced by the Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation with support from the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, National Marine Manufacturers Association, National Shooting Sports Foundation and SCI - First For Hunters. The report uses the results from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's 2006 National Survey of Fishing, Hunting and Wildlife-Associated Recreation and statistics provided by the American Sportfishing Association and Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies.

The report: "Hunting and Fishing: Bright Stars of the American Economy ~ A force as big as all outdoors" along with STATE FACTS are available on the Web at
http://www.sportsmenslink.org and http://www.nssf.org


For more information or questions contact: Melinda Gable 202-302-4794 or at Melinda@sportsmenslink.org mailto: Melinda@sportsmenslink.org


###


About CSF
CSF is the most respected and trusted hunting and fishing organization in the political arena. With support from every major hunting and fishing organization, CSF is the leader in promoting sportsmen's issues with elected officials. CSF works directly with the bi-partisan, bi-cameral Congressional Sportsmen's Caucus in the U.S. Congress, as well as affiliated state sportsmen's caucuses in state legislatures around the country.


About NSSF

The National Shooting Sports Foundation is the trade association for the shooting, hunting and firearms industry whose purpose is to provide trusted leadership in addressing industry challenges. NSSF concentrates efforts on measurably advancing participation in and understanding of hunting and the shooting sports; reaffirming and strengthening their members' commitment to the safe and responsible use of their products; and promoting a political climate supportive of America's traditional firearms rights.



The full report in short easy to read format. Fun and fact filled.

http://www.nssf.org/07report/CompleteReport.pdf

Pennsylvania Hunting Stats

http://www.nssf.org/07report/factsheets/...221198363030685


Pennsylvania Spending - National Ranking

http://www.nssf.org/07report/compare.cfm

Pennsylvania Days Afield

http://www.nssf.org/07report/compare.cfm

the big coyote hunt  you are talking about sorry i was off on the amount called in


COYOTE HUNT 2007

Feb. 16,17,18, 2007
3,880 Registered Hunters

78 TOTAL COYOTES

$31,040.00 Total Prize Money

1st - $7,760.00                           2nd.- $4,656.00                        3rd. $3,104.00

$15,520.00 Divided  among all coyotes brought in.   -  $198.97 each

1 st Place – ( # 74)   Chris Haines     47.30 lbs.

2nd  Place -  (#  60)   Bob Hendrickson  46.35lbs.

3rd   Place  - (# 28)     Nick Greer   45.45lbs.

Dogs -----46

Calls------25

Tracking-  6

Sitting   -  1


COUNTIES
Clearfield    - 10                Elk              -2             Carbon                -1         
Montour      -   6                Indiana        -2             McKean              -1

Bradford      -   5                Washington- 2            Columbia            -1

Warren        -    5                Erie             -2            Venango              -1

Mercer         -   4                 Potter          -2             Northhampton    -1

Erie              -   4                 Cambria      -1             Fayette               -1

Centre          -   4                 Jefferson     -1             Clinton               -1

Greene         -   3                 Blair            -1             Allegheny          -1

Luzerene      -   3                 Synder        -1             Sullivan              -1

Crawford      -   2                 Franklin      -1             Clarion               -1       

Susquehanna -  2                 Bedford      -1              Lawarence         -1

McKean        -   2                 Forest         -1

why don't all the western big names  show up when theres money like this to be had $31,040.00 these coyotes are the same as there's :wo: :wo: :wo: :wo:

they get most of their numbers from surveys they send out.  I got my first last year.  a buddy of mine gets one every year.  it goes off the furtakers liscense's they send out a precentage.  then when they get back the forms even it out.

Hey guys I have not had much time at the computer for a few days.  I was a little surprised at some of the responses to my review of the Byron South seminar on Jan. 6 in Pittsburgh.  I am new to coyote hunting.  I have only done 86 stands since March of 2007.  I am trying to learn as much as I can  from any source I can find.  I have subscribed to Predator Xtreme magazine, I Googled coyote hunting on the Internet, and I have questioned anyone I could find who seemed to know something about hunting coyotes.  It's tough.  There is just not much reliable info available.  The Internet seems to have the most information.  Forums like this one have been a big help.  The more experienced members of this forum have patiently answered  my newbie questions in a very helpful way.  When I learned that a very experienced coyote hunter was doing a seminar 3 hours from me I was excited about the opportunity to attend.  As stated in my review above I was impressed with the seminar.  Much of the information was familiar to me from other sources like this forum.  People learn in different ways.  Hearing Byron say some of the things I had already read kind of reinforced them for me.  Having someone explain the wind and thermals the way he did clarified it in my mind.  Being exposed to the information does not mean you have learned it.  Eventually as I gain more experience, read more of the posts on the forums, talk to more experienced hunters, I hope to become a better and more successful coyote hunter.  I am thankful to all the sources who have contributed information to me thus far.  With the review of Byron's seminar I was hoping to contribute something back to this forum that might be of interest to some of you who have been helping me so much.  I was not aware of any previous controversy.  I enjoyed the seminar and learned from it.  I will continue to try to absorb as much information as I can from any source who will put up with me.  I expect a lot of it will come from this forum.

Jim

Just about all you need to know about BS can be found on Huntmasters.  Go back a year and a half and take a look at some of the 20 page threads over there.

I agree with George.  You don't see many big names coming to hunt in the east.  Even the e caller companies test their products out west, even though one of them is located here in the east.

I can read a book and regurgitate what I've read, but that wont make me a practical expert on the subject. 

It may be time for some of the "big shots" to put their money where their mouth is.   

I was told a year or so ago by a pro staff member from one of the big e caller companies that the rankest member in his culb could kill more coyotes in a weekend than a buddy of mine could in a season.

I invited him to come out here and stay with me for as long as he wanted.  We would hunt as much as he wanted, and in the end, the rankest member of his club would have killed more coyotes in a weekend than he would have his entire stay.  He not only declined, he agreed.

Al

Pro Staff......Does Pro stand for promoter or prostitute??

Randy

I understand there are a lot of hunters in PA, and that their Mosquito Creek contest draws quite a crowd, I'm just saying there appears to be a substantial population of coyotes in the state.  The number of "over 20,000 harvested" was not an estimate... it was defined by the F&G.  It might've been 22,000 or it might've been 54,500, but it was over 20,000.  No arial estimations- the state F&G makes that claim as documented dead coyotes.   That's a pretty fair number... although I cannot find documentation on other states, I have a feeling that's in the mid-range/high-range of the spectrum when you look East of the Mississippi.   Sure, most of it was trappers... I'm not arguing about anyone's calling abilities here... it just seems there are some decent numbers in Pennsylvania these days.

I don't think anyone would come out and say hunting in the East is as productive as hunting in the West.   Of course there are places in each hemisphere that contradict popular theories- such as coyote void areas in Milan Missouri and overloaded pockets in Springfield Illinois.  The Midwest and Southeast seem to have pretty strong numbers and a growing number of succesful callers- the Northeast continues to struggle with low populations and subsequently fewer (consistantly) succesful hunters.   Anyone that argues these facts are just self-concious about their own lack of success or too blind to see the problems others face.

Populations naturally rise and fall every 4-6 years in each region I hunt.  Right now we're on the high end of the spectrum in my "core area" and I've called well over 100 coyotes in four months.  I'm heading 300 mile north tomorrow and slowly hunting my way back.... testing the populations of regions in Northern, Northwestern, East Central and West Central Indiana as well as dabbling in West Central Ohio.  I'll then focus two more calling trips next month on whichever area produces best: that's the most efficient way to kill big numbers no matter where you live.  With the assistance of the rut and some late dispersal I can still dig up coyotes in my core area on a pretty regular basis... but I'm certain a couple of those other regions will be more productive.

If you think hunting half a dozen farms within 10 mile of your home is going to consistantly produce big numbers of coyotes in any state: you're dreaming.   Big numbers takes big country, in Wyoming/California/Indiana/Alabama or Vermont.   More ground, more time in the woods, more coyotes in the truck.   Hunting the same unsuccesful stand 16 times is not hunting hard... it's hunting dumb.   (Not directed at anyone: just a common misconception amongst folks who have low populations)   You gotta know when to walk away... and know when to run.

Quotethey get most of their numbers from surveys they send out.  I got my first last year.  a buddy of mine gets one every year.  it goes off the furtakers liscense's they send out a precentage.  then when they get back the forms even it out.

Didnt know they did that.   Thanks, I never got one.

QuoteI was a little surprised at some of the responses to my review of the Byron South seminar on Jan. 6 in Pittsburgh.  I am new to coyote hunting.  I have only done 86 stands since March of 2007.  I am trying to learn as much as I can  from any source I can find.

Your doing fine! That's the right way to go about learning to hunt Coyotes! And if you keep after it, they will come!

This Eastern debate thing has been going on sense I been on the enet. And it will go on after I'm gone for sure. I have hunted East and West and so have allot of these guys. And there are very hard areas to call and kill Coyotes even in the West. But on a day to day run the west just has more Coyotes, hands down!

On weather BS can come here and call Coyotes. He probably can and there are Western Coyote hunters that would kill Coyotes here other than him. I know some have, they hunted here with me. And there are places were hunting out there is the West is like hunting here in the East. But all this boils down to is numbers!

But Eastern TX is not EAST! I don't care what kind of numbers they have or what the terrain is. Its still Eastern TX!

BS can call Coyotes and kill Coyotes. And given enough land here or in the East he could kill them here. Big numbers, I don't know but he could kill Coyotes.


Just remember these guys are here to learn, you can learn allot from allot of different ways, and people. Not all Eastern hunters hunt a like and not all Western hunters hunt the same. Take what you can get from anyone who will help you and use what you can to learn and adapt what you can to your area.

I learned allot about Coyotes from hunting out West. I could watch them and see them from along ways off. I learned thing about them that I could not even see here do to the timber.

Brent

JRB-- I'm in East Central Ohio right along I77. I will be working all day Friday & Bill & I are going to hunt a WMA near Coshocton Saturday AM. If things work out you are invited along. Well,, that's if we're on your line of travel tho.  :confused:

But you're Welcome to join us!!

Frogman:  I agree with Brent on this one 100%.  You are taking the right approach. Watch the videos, attend the seminars, read the books, and read the posts, but above all, digest what you learn from the best teacher of all, Old Wylie himself. 

[

I learned allot about Coyotes from hunting out West. I could watch them and see them from along ways off. I learned thing about them that I could not even see here do to the timber.

Brent
[/quote]


Brent, wouldn't you say that what you saw out there confirmed what you were thinking about eastern coyote's movements?

One of the things you and I both have told newbies is to pay attention to the coyote they see in the video and how and where it moves across the ground. I know that without all the darned trees it is hard to comprehend what they are seeing, but the travel habits are the same. Jimmie

Dont take any of this personal Frogman. These guys here surely are not going to hold anything against you. They will continue to answer your questions the best they can just as Byron would.

But as you can tell Byron isn't very popular here. To be honest he hasn't been since the site was launched and the biggest reason for that is the majority of the members that helped launch this site,  knew Byron first hand and all too well, I might add.

I certainly do not blame you for going over to see the show, and I'd bet my left arm these guy aren't either. We just know that we'd never be seen at one  :nono: and like I said....it's absolutely nothing against you my friend.  :wink:

Hi Frogman, I've known Byron for many years and spent some time in his company. Last August we both attended Bass Pro's grand opening in Mesa as exhibitors. As my son and I set up our booth, before the doors were opened to the public, Byron and one of his buddies came to our table and Byron informed me that I was not his friend, he did not want me to bother him, to stay away from his seminar. His face was beet red, a vein was throbbing in his forehead and he was spitting all over me as he shouted at me. The other exhibitors were standing and staring with shocked looks on their faces. The rep from NRA at the next booth told me that he was going to file a formal complaint with Bass Pro management about the Foxpro staff's behavior.
Byron's first seminar was a little later that morning. Naturally I had to wander down to see what Byron wanted to keep me from.  I  sat down in the center chair three rows back from Byron, about fifteen people scattered around. Still early Sat morn. Byron hestitated a moment and swallowed several times and then continued without missing a beat. His presentation was professionally formulated, well practiced and polished. The information was solid and basic  and directed at Fox Pro's target audience. As he relaxed his personality emerged and he connected with the audience. It was very well done and Byron is undoubtedly Foxpro's greatest public relations asset.
Frogman, if you have the opportunity to attend another Foxpro seminar by all means do so. The social climate at these things is always fun and anyone fairly new to the sport will always learn something.

Quote from: THO Game Calls on January 08, 2008, 09:27:12 PM
Actually, the first verified coyote in NH was taken in 1944.

Prior to the 1800's, there are no reports of coyotes ever being in NH.   


Al

as I said, for what it is worth.

But can YOU alter a coyotes behaviour Rich? He will be the judge!

Rich,  :confused: I dont get it..... Why would you be a threat to his seminar?   What did you do to him?    IMO even the most knowledgable and best speaking coyote hunter in the world doesnt mean chit if you dont have good people skills...... :rolleye:   I have seen his seminar and its a good one..  but it doesnt change the fact that he is an asshole at heart....   just the way I see it.

maybe the misting conflict?  I know rich agrees with the misting asspect of calling and the seminar that byron put on at the cabelas in hamburg pa he did not come out and say misting was wrong but he did not agree with it.  and quoted the senosory overload from rich saying that a coyote smells things better then most critters and that it would not matter but a few seconds to get a shot off.  he definately knows how to sell himself and a product(foxpro).  he is a very good speaker and does not stammer or skip a beat.  while I consider rich higgins a good coyote caller I do not do the misting.  I allready carry enough crap with me.  not saying it doesn't work but right now we still have fox and I am having just as much fun callin a red or a grey fox then coyotes.  I have allready seen the decline in the reds in three years of calling and 10 years of trapping.  they just will not be around I am afraid in a few years. 

Rich:  I don't know Byron South even though he is on the Foxpro Field Staff as I am. I am totally unfamiliar with the references made in various posts on this thread as to why the majority of people on this forum do not like him. I am not defending him in any way, but I would be interested like some of the other posters what this heated conflict was all about. I have seen his videos, including the "Callin' in the Thick Stuff", and I was never in doubt that he was talking about East Texas. He might have been wiser if he had used words like "Here in East Texas" instead of "Here in the East" when he was making comparisons to set ups there that might help someone setting up in similar terrain, but he stated early in the video that he was raised in areas like that. I interpreted the video to be instructional about setups in that kind of terrain.  Like Brent mentioned in an earlier post, East Texas is not the East that we are familiar with, but it is a lot different than some of the wide open country in states like S. Dakota, N. Dakota, and Wyoming.  Byron is a walking, talking commercial true enough. Your input would be appreciated about this conflict.

Hey Rich, How the hell are ya?

I'm sorry to hear about your experience at the show. I can only assume, it took great self discipline to not use some of that funky martial arts tycwando shit on his ass :laf:

Part of the past on this subject fellas, is Byron's performances outside of his normal hunting grounds. Basically falling on his face in several states. Along with some deceitful actions on his part, to so called friends. I got to spend some time with Byron a couple years ago in Arizona, for the most part he is a fun guy to hang around with and listen to some wild stories. A little on the arrogant side but fun none the less.

I truly feel that anyone could be successful on locked gate ranches in Texas. I'd love to have the opportunity to hunt one sometime for target practice.

Frogman, Persistance will pay off, study these critters as much as time allows you and learn from others and your mistakes. Just remember, you must first beat there ears, then there eyes and shoot them before they get a chance to use there nose.  :wink:


JD

JD

Browning204

That quote was from the NH Fish and Game Web Site.  It was based on state records.  Not on conjecture from some granola munching biologist who doesn't even own a pair of boots.  I found it funny that the biologist you spoke to didn't even know what was on their own web site.

Possum Al

QuoteI am totally unfamiliar with the references made in various posts on this thread as to why the majority of people on this forum do not like him.

Go read it all on Huntmasters if you want.  It all blew up about a year and half ago.

But the real reason "as to why the majority of people on this forum do not like him" can be summed up like this

BS PM  and  PM BS 

the two seem to go hand in hand eh?


Mr. Higgin's.

You were just dripping with sweatness in your post.  I think it was about a year and a half ago that there was some talk of a law suit?   Things sure have mellowed out since then.   My hats off to you.   I don't know how you do it.   I may live in the east, but even I know not to turn my back on a rattle snake.

Al

JD, JD,  :eyebrownod: Tyler says "What the Hey, some of your best friends are assholes." :eyebrownod:
Ben, misting or any difference in opinion has nothing to do with our "conflict".  I'm used to my friends and other callers disagreeing with some of my "off the wall" theories.
Possom Al. send me your phone # please. Richaz1221@aol.com

well I am kinda a humble guy.  so we will just leave it at that.  looking forward to the upcomin vid rich.

Hey Al, I don't get to see much of you anymore. Byron has left me alone on the boards as I have him. Behind the scenes he has been very vocal about his displeasure with me and I have tried to be objective rather than "dripping with sweetness". I lost a couple of friends during that very negative time and I will not continue to drag the old crap around. Especially when so much new crap is available. :eyebrownod:

I will be seeing Byron and the FoxPro crew at the Shot Show on the first and again at the OPHA Banquet the next weekend and again at the PM Hunt the third weekend. I see no reason they can't behave in a professional manner when representing the company.
Still..... Big Ben, got my back? :laf:

Maybe we should stop talking about Byron before he turns us in to someone for something, I hear he is REAL good at that.

sorry I allready have something planned for that weekend. 

Rich,

Good to see you on the board my friend!

QuoteJD, JD,   Tyler says "What the Hey, some of your best friends are assholes."

Ha, Ha! You tell Tyler he got that right! :biggrin:


I think we all lost a few friends in all that mess. I know I did as well. But the way I look at it is they must not of been very good friends then! :rolleye:


Jimmie,

QuoteBrent, wouldn't you say that what you saw out there confirmed what you were thinking about eastern coyote's movements?

One of the things you and I both have told newbies is to pay attention to the coyote they see in the video and how and where it moves across the ground. I know that without all the darned trees it is hard to comprehend what they are seeing, but the travel habits are the same. Jimmie

Travel habits are close to the same. The terrain is different so that changes the way the Coyotes work to the call. But you can learn allot about there body language for sure. And how they approach a call by being able to see the coyote approach from a long ways off.

We also filmed and hunted "The Thick Stuff" allot while we were there with shotguns. We called two times as many Coyotes out of the thicker cover by getting right down in there with them, than we did calling them out into open areas. We were not hunting locked gates, we had to hunt areas that got pounded by all the local hunters and hunting clubs. We just took our Eastern tactic's and used them in there tick cover.

And then we found several Texas Coyotes in AZ that would run full blast across a open area for a mile and circle the caller a couple times before the shot gun shooter setting behind a clump of grass in the middle of open desert would drop the Coyotes at 15 yards. But for the most part, the coyotes worked just like they do here or any were else we hunted. And some just go strait for the wind! There were not very many TX Coyotes in AZ though! :biggrin: Not were we were! :biggrin:


Brent

There were not very many TX Coyotes in AZ though!  :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Quote from: Rich Higgins on January 11, 2008, 08:57:36 AM
...Byron informed me that I was not his friend, he did not want me to bother him, to stay away from his seminar. His face was beet red, a vein was throbbing in his forehead and he was spitting all over me as he shouted at me. The other exhibitors were standing and staring with shocked looks on their faces.
....I had to wander down to see what Byron wanted to keep me from.  I  sat down in the center chair three rows back from Byron

ROFLMAO!!  :roflmao:  :laugh2:

That's good stuff
Gimme a sec here, I got something in my eye  :laf:

 After reading page after page on coyote populations and  density my head started hurting :doh2:

I decided to look at it in a different way than just the same ole debate. After doing lots of research I came across something that has been over looked. 

In the early history of the east there were many pirates and the coyote population was low at best. As the pirate population got smaller the coyote population got bigger. This continued up untill the year 2000 as the chart below will verify.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Plumbrich/piratesarecool4copy.jpg)


Now since the Disney movie pirates of the Caribbean there have been a lot more pirates  moving to the east. I think as more sequels  come out there will be even more pirates moving here. I have not found a chart with any new studies since the movie came out. From reading the post it does appear the eastern coyote population may be on a decline.





.





Sorry guys. just to much info to reply to in a post.  :roflmao:

No more smokin pot before you post.  :roflmao: :roflmao:

I'm takin the boys coyote huntin in the morning, so are you suggesting we shoot any pirate we see  ?  COOL BEANS  :nono:  Or, did the coyote take care of them on their own ??

   We may get into trouble, looks like pirates are near extinction !!!!!!!!! :confused: :laf:

CCP: As John Wayne might put it, "Monsieur CCP, you are a lulu"!  :roflmao: :roflmao:

 :argh:  Pirates went out in Ohio last week!!!!!  DAMMIT I say!!!!


:laf: :laf:

CCP, Your full of it  :eyebrownod: Jimmie

ARGHHH! Matey!!  Shiver me timbers me is parts pirate! So thats why me no see kyoties.  ARGHHH!!

Very interesting.............

He's comin to Wisconsin too. I'd would love to see that Randy Anderson wanna be bag a Wisconsin coyote.
His record so far hunting East of the big drink tells me it aint gonna happen any time soon. :nono:

But he's going to comin tell us out here (Western Style), how to hunt Eastern Coyotes  :nono:

Whats wrong with this picture?

Don't forget to invite him to FnF when you talk to him Jimbo!!  :innocentwhistle:

:laf: :laf:

 :laugh2: right

 :roflmao: :roflmao: I thought you would like that one!!  :roflmao: :roflmao:

QuoteHe's comin to Wisconsin too.

Jim you are wrong he has already been there. He did a video on the state. I think it was volume 5 or as Byron referred to it as "this many" (while holding up his hand).

I will look and see if I can find a pic or link to it.














(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Plumbrich/callinwisconsin.jpg)

 :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Your killing me here.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Coming to the Mall  :roflmao: :roflmao:

 :roflmao: :roflmao:

Volume (http://finsandfur.net/forums/images/volume5.gif)     :laf: :laf: :laf:

That's pretty dang funny Richard :roflmao:

Coming to the Mall was  :roflmao: :roflmao: but I particularly enjoyed the Calling in Wisconsin/Filmed in East Texas.  :thumb2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Interesting thread.  Byron's meltdown in Mesa was much worse than Rich described.  That guy is building himself a reputation for losing it in public.  In case you didn't notice, Byron and Mike went to California and hunted for three days.  Byron shot one.  That's so special.  East or west, maybe he should stick to talking.  He's pretty good at that.

Quote from: CCP on January 18, 2008, 05:15:15 PM

QuoteHe's comin to Wisconsin too.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Plumbrich/callinwisconsin.jpg)

You lost it...........that is hilarious........ :laugh2: :yahoo: ;yes; :thumb2:

Edited.
Issue resolved.

The problem is, the first one to validate their so called speculations with facts, faces a law suit. Sounds like a set up  :holdon:

This had dang near died on the vine, but here it is yet again......... :rolleye:

I've known who you are for at least 6 or 7 years  when Will started PM. Always considered ya a very knowledgeable coyote hunter just by the sound of it. However, you can talk about me........everyone else does.
I'm five and half feet any way you turn me.......easy pickings.... :wink:

QuoteI'm five and half feet any way you turn me.......easy pickings....  :wink:

Now dangit Bop!! Don't be so hard on yourself here!!  :rolleye:









Thats for us to do big guy!!  :biggrin: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Quote from: CCP on January 18, 2008, 05:15:15 PM

QuoteHe's comin to Wisconsin too.

Jim you are wrong he has already been there. He did a video on the state. I think it was volume 5 or as Byron referred to it as "this many" (while holding up his hand).

I will look and see if I can find a pic or link to it.














(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Plumbrich/callinwisconsin.jpg)

Wicked funny chit!!!!

Quote from: Uncle Jay on January 23, 2008, 08:24:18 PM
Thank you for the invite CCP.



While we're at it let's accuse browning204 of not knowing which end of a WT to blow on.  What would it hurt?  The harm is that it's probably a lie.

Blow on???  Is that where I am going wrong?  :laf:

QuoteThank you for the invite CCP

Not a problem good to hear from you :wink:

Guess I wasn't the only one that took the  Dale Carnegie classes years ago.

QuoteWhy don't we speculate, Let's speculate and gossip, Should we speculate and gossip

Please do I haven't got to hear these stories yet. Most of your post seems to be directed at Rich Higgins so I cant reply much there about personal differences (I dont know him that well).  I don't always agree with Rich but do believe him to be more knowledgeable about coyotes then Byron.


It appears some people like Byron and some don't. nothin wrong with that. We could have a 47 page thread and in the end most everyone will keep there original opinion. I have formed my opinion based on what I have seen and I have read several of his E-mails to people.



If Byron created the cure for cancer tomorrow there would be lots of people that loved him and still a few that hated him. Just a fact of life. I liked  Ronald Reagan but there are  "I Hated Reagan" forums out there. I  don't loose a bit of sleep over it.

Jay I wish you hadn't written such a long reply being from Alabama I cant comprehend it all at one time. I may have to make several small reply's over the next few days.( please don't speculate on my education)

I think I'll go over there and start a I hate foxpro thread  :wink: Now that would be a true test to see if I could get my feelings hurt you think. :biggrin:

OK.......I debated about posting in here for several Hrs and a couple Hrs of talking with Jay, and I will say that he knows up front that I am going to post on this and so does Rich. And I also want all of you to know that I am friends with both Rich and Jay. I have tried hard not to get involved with any of this bull shit on a public forum from the start. And I will say the start of all this was when I left PM and came here. This hole mess has caused me a ton of grief! A TON! You all have no idea of how much grief has been involved in all this sense I left over there. Not only with all this BS mess but with other things as well. I have felt as though I could not defend myself on allot of accounts, and also feel I have took it strait up the ass over some of the stuff that has happened over this 2 year mess! I made the decision not to go public and defend several things that were made against me. I did defend myself to those that were man enough to call me and ask me! And will still offer the same extent to anyone who wants to talk! My contact info is on my web site!

Next....I will say up front right now that I am considering the possibility of resigning my position here at FNF, due to all that has happened in the past and what is going on now. This is not a I'm taking my bags and leaving post to get sympathy from anyone, or things don't go my way post, and I will explain why in this post as well. Its time for me to take a stance on all this for the fact that I just can not take this anymore!

I have seen very good friends fall by the way side do to petty bull shit, I have had people cut me strait up the back to get to someone I am friends with, I have seen and heard tons of rumors and so being just pure Bull! Some being true. Is it my place to judge? NOPE! Its not, so why should I be cough in the middle? I feel as though I can even post what I think with out it effecting me and my friends! You can not ride the fence, meaning that I have very close friends on both sides and no matter what I say or even if I don't say anything I am drug right in the middle of all this mess.

Thought of the night.......Why do you all think that Gerald, Randy Anderson, Rod, or any of the big names in the industry don't post? I will tell you why....It makes them a target.

Now....I come to the forums for a reason, and the reason being I want to meet people, share knowledge, ideas, hunting storeys and such and I will say that I have done this, I hope! I have meet some great friends, had some great hunts with them, and memory's that I will never forget! With Rich Higgins, Jay,JD, Jim Champion, Lance Adams, Byron South, Randy Black, Randy Reeves, Rich Baxter, and many more! I feel very fortunate to have meet allot of these people and will Cherish allot of it till I go to the grave! But I'm done with the bull shit!

I was said to me a week or so ago that some of the people I associate myself with is hurting me! Well, maybe! But I don't choose my friends they choose me! I will be friends with anyone until they give me a reason not to. It was also brought to my attention that it has caused me problems in the industry of predator hunting. So be it then. I will not compromise my friends for money or association with someone. If this makes me a bad person then so be it, call me what you will.

I have stayed out of this to the point that I have not posted in defense of myself or friends, I have tyred to stay neutral and if this continues then I will just not post at all on anything, and that includes my position here at FNF. I will not let my friendships drop but just will not post on a open forum.

I think that what I have seen is friends of many years have fell apart and let Petty stuff come between years of friendship and friends standing up for friends that didn't know all the facts, rumors, self judgment, and tons of other stuff.

I'm not the best with words for sure but I am a good person and try to be in good company but damn, I know I am not the only one that is sick of this bull shit. I am sick of seeing friends divided.

I will say this again......I am sick of seeing friends divided and have decided I will not be part of it, its tearing me apart piece by piece, maybe that's just the hillbilly in me but none the less it true, true from all of us! We are in this sport because we love to hunt, something that I think has been forgotten form time to time!

Now in response to Jays post I want to answer what I was called out on and will answer with a honest opinion.............

QuoteWe could speculate and gossip about your first meeting with Brent Saxton and how I filled in for you by taking Brent hunting with Thifault. (Thifault by the way was the one you personally helped get kicked out of PVCI).  As I recall, Brent thought the world of Thifault.  Are you still the victim?

I don't know all the details of how I ended up hunting with you and Gary that day I don't remember to be exact, and all I can say is that I enjoyed it very much! I was very grateful to you, Gary and Rich for the memory's I got that day what ever the reason was. But this was not the first meeting between Rich and I that you took over. Rich was welcomed into my my home as has many of of the board members over the years. He came here to stay, hunt and film with me the first time we meet. And this is also one of the great memory's I have as well. I enjoyed Jay and Garys company as well as Rich later in the week. That's one of the most memorable trip I have ever took, here is a couple pic from both hunts that I still have saved on my computer.......


Me and Gary.....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/keekee/brentandgary.jpg?t=1201161093)

Jay the day after.....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/keekee/jaysdog.jpg?t=1201161218)

And a Pic of Rich, putting on his Mexican rain coat when he was here..........

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/keekee/higgy.jpg?t=1201161291)

And a pic of another good friend I made that trip....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/keekee/tyler.jpg?t=1201161377)

QuoteFilming coyotes in the city is fun for only about five minutes.  After that, it's time to hunt. Yes? No? (Back me up here Brent, JD, Todd, Jeff).

As far as I know Jeff and Todd are not members here, does this mean we will be gaining them as members soon?

I told Jay this on the phone tonight and I will say it here......We wanted to be able to read the Coyotes up close, film them, get some footage and see how much we could mess with there brains. We did that, and Rich was a great help. We filmed Coyotes, 13 to be exact and got what we needed and wanted and enjoyed it. But I will not go with out saying we were eager to shoot some! We were killers! We wanted to shoot and shoot we did later after we left the city areas that we could not shoot in! But I will say with out a doubt that we learned a ton in those few days from being able to study and film those coyotes! They tough us allot.

And I will also say that we learned some techniques that proved to be deadly on AZ coyotes that we could shoot and film!


These two guys have been friends of mine for years! Please don't ask me to take a side! And nor should anyone, don't ask me to take sides, I have stayed neutral threw all of this even threw some of it I should of not have. Sad part is, I was setting here typing this and a local pack of Coyotes cut loose in front of the house, I took the time to stop and just set back and lessen to them group howl and take in the song they sang and think. What made them howl at that exact time? I have no idea but I do think all things happen for a reason! What reason I have no idea but it did happen for a reason!

Maybe we should all take time to set back and think? Is all this worth it? I have allot of friends here and some that are not members here that I know will read this. If I have offended you or any of you in any way, then my contact info is on the site feel free to call me!


Brent

I know I am just a nobody in the predator calling world, and just the loud mouth guy from PA on many of these sights.
One thing I consistently try to do is tell it like I see it.

Here how I see this,

I personally have to say that I have nothing but good things to say about Mr South!
yes I have called him out on things that he has said or done that I disagree on , as I have many others,
But now I  will say this,,,, he has never been anything but respectful and helpful to ME ...
Jay,, you where not the only guy that looked at Byron's name change on his calling in the east video as being the right move . that's one of the reasons  he is, a stand up guy in my book , I was involved in the thread on PM and Mr South was nothing but cool to talk it over  with , He keeps it respectful ,,, he don't try and make ME or others out to be bumble heads,,, like your reply's in that same thread,,,or the knuckle head guy that posted the photo of the rabbit..that you like so much,,,, one thing I can say about Byron south is I always feel like he talks to me with respect!!!!! And that go's a long way were I am from,
The reason I stayed out of this thread and didn't come on here to say my peace about Byron before now was I don't think he needs my help or do I think he need your help,, what I see is you running to his aid as you did in the PM post!  that's what I seen jay when  I logged on here today and seen your post..
I just found it funny that you come riding in here to set the boys strait,

I agree with Brent on this one. It is time to put it to bed to sleep forever.  Uncle Jay's post covered a lot of ground and offers a lot to think about.  I am sure Frogman had no clue what his simple post about enjoying a seminar could start here on the forum. I won't turn my back on friends because of someone else's opinion either. I have friends who use Minaska callers. So what? I use Foxpro. So what?  Let's get back to the business of sharing info and helping the newer predator hunters enjoy the sport we all cherish so much. Good hunting at ya!

Jay, why are you stirring this same OLD CRAP up again? You are not doing Byron or his associates a favor. I posted a very objective assessment of Byrons seminar for Forman's benefit. It was well done. I described the "confrontation" because two of the emails that asked me to come over here and join the thread mentioned the fact that it was well known through the calling community as was Byron's "meltdown" with Les. By briefly mentioning the "Confrontation" with Byron I established that I was not a Byron groupie which probably lent credence to my objective opinion of his seminar.
In my defense I am going to have to address your long list of insinuations of my behavior and actions. I will not insinuate anything but post detailed, documented and/or witnessed facts. Byron and Gary Thifault will not like it, I promise you that. You are doing them a disservice by placing me in a position to defend myself by exposing them once again.
IT IS NOT SLANDER IF IT IS THE TRUTH.
I do not want to do this.

I will give you the opportunity to reconsider your post and it's consequences and delete those that you do not want me to expose in detail on this open forum. I am going calling Sunday morning.  I will sit down Sunday PM and cut and paste what remains and respond to each one individually.

Damn, Jay. I wish you hadn't pushed these buttons. Be generous to your friends. I will not.

Glass houses, Jay. You are at risk of"speculation and gossip" as well.

This is the kind of crap we left the other board for to come here and get away from it. A few of the things around here are starting to look like they are "over there".

This is the interesting part of what Gary Thifault wrote on the front page of PVCI's newsletter Predator Tales in May of '05 right after he was elected President of the club.

"I called my first coyote in when I was just 6 years old and killed it with my .410 shotgun.  Though I have only been in the club for 4 years, I have been Varmint calling for 33 years during which I have taken over 1,500 coyotes and been involved in about 30 bear & 30 lion kills so I am no stranger to the sport.  In the past my rifle to shotgun ratio averaged about 50/50.  This season I harvested 109 varmints.  Of these kills 13 were with my .223 rifle & 84 with my 12 Ga shotgun.  I made the transition to prove that you can do anything with a shotgun that you can do with a rifle as long as you call them in close.  I use either a bite down or open reed call exclusively (cow elk thriller & pee wee).  I won the 2004 & 2005 Top Shooter and Top Caller Awards."

The year after Thifault quit hunting with PVCI, club hunt totals dropped off a cliff.   Bob and Terry were top callers/top team, with 22 coyotes, 4 bobcats, and 8 foxes between the two of them.  Higgins, Higgins, and the other Rich won the best of 7 scramble hunts.  In '06, the entire PVCI with more than 250 members harvested 124 coyotes, 10 bobcats, and 25 foxes.  The club was obviously diminished by the loss of a great hunter.

1500 coyotes?  :bowingsmilie:

Doing the math, visualizing 50 coyotes a year through elementary school, high school, every year since the age of 6, makes my head hurt. :whew:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/wprv935/Days.jpg)

In some of the post cutting Byron South, there is an old Indian saying don't judge a man until you walk in his moccasins. Byron Is a super guy and knows more that most about coyote,fox and b. bobcat  hunting. :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :sneer: :sneer: :sneer: :sneer: :sneer: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo:

Quote from: Bushymonster on January 24, 2008, 02:43:31 PM
In some of the post cutting Byron South, there is an old Indian saying don't judge a man until you walk in his moccasins. Byron Is a super guy and knows more that most about coyote,fox and b. bobcat  hunting. :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :sneer: :sneer: :sneer: :sneer: :sneer: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo:

Thank you so much for that flash of wisdom Bushy...... :innocentwhistle:
You single handedly changed my entire perception on life.............are you running for president with all your infinite wisdom?  :nono:

Some of y'all take this crap way too serious............it's coyote hunting guys...... :iroll: go kill something....... :eyebrow:

I don't know Byron, just things I've read and heard...........is he a good guy, I haven't the foggiest. Is he a bad guy, I haven't the foggiest.
Does it change my life........where's the fog?  :laf:

Quotewhere's the fog?

It's out there with the coyotes in the thcik stuff


(http://www.thogamecalls.com/MiscPics/FogL2.jpg)

You'll have this on any board Weedwalker. It's inevitable, and it's degrading to tell people what they can and cant post.

The very very very few forums out there, that every single person agrees with every single person...dont have much to offer.

Just do what the other members do when I start ranting about something myself...they scroll right past it  :laf: :wink:


Hey Brent,
I'm confused as to how not being willing to praise South and the ground he walks on could hinder the ability of your business to grow. :confused:
Les Johnson dont pat South's booty and he is succeeding.  :innocentwhistle:

A decent relationship with those people is a helluva thing to have to depend on. I'd have to pass.   :wink:

Fog you ask!!  I gots lotsa fog for ya!!  :eyebrow:

Is this enough Bop??  :shrug:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/grs204/openingdayfog005.jpg)

:roflmao: :roflmao:

Back on topic.  :readthis: Well sorta anyway.   :doh2:


I met BS once & it was a pleasant meeting. He was here in Ohio for a seminar. Like I said earlier,, I don't know him well enough to judge his character.  :shrug:  The rest of my posts in this thread were just feeble attempts at humor.

Nice picture Hammer.  What?  Mine wasn't good eough? 


Fog You


   :roflmao:   :roflmao:   :roflmao:   :roflmao:

Al

Your picture was fine Al!!  :biggrin:  I just wasn't sure how much fog Bop needed to get lost in is all!!   :shrug: :roflmao: :roflmao:

I heard he was always in a fog   :laf:

Al

Is that a fat joke.......??? Takes a lot of fog to cover my fat rear? Well, I have but one thing to say to Hamer and THO collectively.
Anyone else that wants a piece of this can do so as well...............

Here goes............




Ya READY????







BITE ME


That is some killer pictures though........

Made me feel serene and peaceful.......... :confused: :huh:  Dang, that sounded gay.  :laf:

its that sensitivity training kickin in bop.   :hahaha:

 I don't have a dog in this fight and I do not know any of the people involved (except Brent).

That said, as an outsider looking in, I really don't care who is pissing up who's rope or what the problem is here but I do agree 100% with one statement that was made:

QuoteQuite frankly I am surprised at a couple members here for not coming forth and bluntly saying that all this crap is none of anybody's business and destructive to the predator hunting fraternity.

Gentlemen, for the good of all please let it go.

I hear ya coyotehunter1 I think we beat this subject to death.

As slow as some of this is going "it might as well be mudder fudder dial up".......................  :eyebrow:

QuoteHey Brent,
I'm confused as to how not being willing to praise South and the ground he walks on could hinder the ability of your business to grow.
Les Johnson dont pat South's booty and he is succeeding. 

A decent relationship with those people is a helluva thing to have to depend on. I'd have to pass.   

I didnt say that not being willing to kiss someones ass was hidering my buisness. And just for the record I dont kiss no ones ass! :nono:

I think this says it all...........

QuoteI was said to me a week or so ago that some of the people I associate myself with is hurting me! Well, maybe! But I don't choose my friends they choose me! I will be friends with anyone until they give me a reason not to. It was also brought to my attention that it has caused me problems in the industry of predator hunting. So be it then. I will not compromise my friends for money or association with someone. If this makes me a bad person then so be it, call me what you will.

What Less Johnson does is his buisness, I dont think he kisses anyones ass either. Thats just here say because I dont know that to be fact, I plead guilty! :doh2:




Brent

 :roflmao: @ Bopeye!! Does that mean I still have that "Get out of a BITE ME Free Card"??  :shrug:  :laf:  I don't need to know anything about serene either!!  :pout:

Edited.
Issue Resolved

Alright.........it's group hug time. Jay........ I LUV U MAN  :eyebrownod:

During this group hug thing.....everyone has to keep their hands above the waist...........agreed?  :huh: :wo: :laf:


You know the thing I like most about this place as opposed to others that I go too? We can fight like crap, smash each others mothers, pee down each others backs and somehow we always seem to find some humor and it blows over. Anyway that's the way I see it and for those of you that don't agree...........


BITE ME!

QuoteYou know the thing I like most about this place as opposed to others that I go too? We can fight like crap, smash each others mothers, pee down each others backs and somehow we always seem to find some humor and it blows over.

I Agree Bite me Bopeye

I lost my owners manual, can someone tell me what end of the WT to blow in. I am about ready to pass out over here!  :laf: :roflmao:

EDIT: for spelling because I am a DORK!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Jay. I've tried to call you a few times in the past six months and sent many emails and received no response. If you were honestly attempting to persuade me to "STOP once and for all" you would do so privately. You chose to display publicly which would suggest another, ulterior  motive which I really don't have to "speculate and gossip" about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rich.  I wish this had died down long ago like most.  Many times I have said to myself, "Let it go. This isn't my dogfight.  It'll all blow over." 

And yet here you are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I'm not challenging you to defend anything."

Of course you are, Jay. You know that I'm extremely competitive by nature and will not turn the other cheek after you launch a vituperative personal attack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's no damn fun being on the receiving end is it?
I'll say it twice so maybe it'll sink in.  It's no damn fun being on the receiving end is it? Your defensive/ultimatum response proves that."

Actually the give and take of a good dustup is kinda fun and a defensive/ultimatum?? is a natural response to an attack.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"For the life of me, I cannot fathom a person so arrogant and spiteful that would cause him to go sit in on a seminar, third row center, when he was asked to l e a v e t h e g u y a l o n e."

Sure you can Jay, it's the same arrogance and spite that compelled you to attack me on this forum. Besides I wasn't asked. Byron marched the length of the aisle, with you in tow, entered my space, refused my hand and commenced screaming and spitting on me, DEMANDING that I leave him alone and stay away. Honey and vinegar, Jay. Apparently the honey part didn't occur to either of you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You were not present during any "meltdown" in Florida so why in the hell do you think you are any authority at all?  Why bring it up?  You simply weren't there, and your assessment and apparent need to bring up something you never witnessed is laughable.  Anything you would have to say is the epitome of speculation and gossip.  That alone makes anything you say suspect."

Nope, I wasn't there. All I know about it is what Les has told me and what I have been told by others. "Meltdown" is a word that was used on this board previously and it was in my head because it is pretty much descriptive of the occurance as related to me. Certainly of the one that I was subjected to.
Interestingly, you have brought this up and you didn't witness the Florida incident either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




"Here's the point Rich:  This has everything to do with your relentless prodding and poking of others.  It's about YOU.  It's about how you treat others.  It's about how you poke and prod, accuse and point fingers and say anything you want, but when the tides are turned poor Rich is the victim.  It's about your need to fuel the internet.  Predator Masters asked you to cool your jets over there.  Even The New Huntmasters asked that you cool-it just this week."

Be specific Jay. I did vent about Byron on Huntmasters 1 1/2 years ago when he had me, Vic and Cal suspended because it didn't fare well for Byron and Guess. That did go much farther than I would have liked, but people like you kept joining the fray as it was dying and fire it up again just as you are doing here.
A moderator from PM courteously asked me privately, via pm, to avoid future confrontations and I responded in kind, as I always do.
I did poke some fun at Rich Cronk, but tell me Jay, where was your outrage when Cronk made repeated jabs, digs and snide comments about me on PM and HM.  I never did respond to any of them. Where was your outrage when Cronk posted a link to a cartoon and a humiliating caption directed at me on THIS board last May? I did poke fun at Cronk after another snide jab last month. I revived it this month with the help of Leonard. So much for your "speculative and gossipy" conclusion that I was asked to tone it down. I deleted all of my own posts after that thread took an ugly turn and I wanted nothing more to do with it. You thought it was very funny the last time I tweaked Cronk with the Howler field trials.
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"There is no need for you to defend, prove or disprove anything.  This is NOT what this is about.  All of this just needs to simply STOP once and for all. "

Very good advice. You and Byron should heed it. I hear often what Byron says about me from magazine writers, editors, call makers. People that I have never met nor spoken to have warned others away from me based on what Byron has told them. LaMarr Game calls warned a young man to watch out for me  2-3 weeks ago. I've never met that gentleman but I was told he is a friend of Byron's.
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Jay , it was good speaking with you. Healthy competition builds character. Talk to you again on Sunday.
Your Friend,
Rich

Edited.
Issue Resolved

"It's not who you think you are underneath.
It's what you do that defines who you are."

That is true.

Most of the new guys are reading this wondering what the hell is going on?

Most of the old guys are reading this and saying here we go again.

I've now watched two men who I respect and admire greatly take persoanl shots at each other in a public forum.  How sad for all of us.

Quote"It's not who you think you are underneath.
It's what you do that defines who you are."

So true in a perfect world.   But it's not a perfect world.

Perception is reality, and the better one is of making his perception someone elses, the better chances he has of influencing what someone else percieves as reality.

The level we sink to then, to try to influence anothers reality, is what really defines who we are.

I already know what level Byron will stoop too, for he was a part of the PM Adminstration that perpetuated a lie about me there and used it to ban me.  He was a part of the lie, he endorsed it, and he went along with it. 

The point to this is really pretty simple.  I lost all respect for one man because of the level he would stoop to to alter anothers perception of reality.  I would really  hate to see that happen with you two, as I have the upmost respect and admiration for both of you, as I am sure a lot of guys do.  So please take this somewhere else.   There are very few heros left in the world.  Let the guys new to Predator Hunting have you two to look up to.  Don't ruin it for them.

Al

edited for spelling JR.

"Ya'll give me a holler if ever I can be of assistance...ya'll take care and keep the hostility, the negative and unproductive things in life to a minumum....don't be too hard on folks,  say your prayers and wear your seatbelts.
Adios." Joe Bradshaw, Tailgate Forum today.

Those are the words of a man I greatly admire and respect as I do you Al.
Five years ago my son Tyler, then 17 years old, and I were accused of cheating in contests by some members of PVCI. It became a defining and huge ordeal. Two club meetings were devoted to the "cheating problem".
Byron and Jay both played a part in events. At one of the board meetings in which I was defending my son and myself I was blindsided by Byron's accusations to the vice-president and huntchairman. I told those that persisted that I wasn't about to tuck tail and run from them. Most people involved are no longer in the club. Tyler and I are still there. Membership has dropped from close to 500 to half that.  Five years of contending with this has worn on me and made me defensive and confrontational. There have been some very good and
positive things that have resulted from all of this. The leadership of Ray Evridge has turned the negative tone of the club to a fun and positive family friendly club.
You are right Al, enough is enough. I will focus on that mindset and attempt to side step confrontation on the boards. A happy and friendly thought about "what would Joe and Al do?" should make it fairly easy. ;yes;

QuoteA happy and friendly thought about "what would Joe and Al do?" should make it fairly easy.

Leave me out of it.  I'd just as soon rip someones lips off and staple them to their chest. 

But then I'm not Rich H or Jay N.   A lot of these new guys look up to you two.  Coyote Gods and all you know?


Timothy 6:10

Look it up.   

Al

Al,

Knowing both these guys for along time I haft to agree. Seeing friends split after years of hunting together and having some good times is a tough deal.

Guys I think you all need to hook up and work all this out! I no mediator for sure, and will probably get some flack for this post but, I can live with that!

Life is to short!


Brent

" Seeing friends split after years of hunting together and having some good times is a tough deal.

Guys I think you all need to hook up and work all this out! I no mediator for sure, and will probably get some flack for this post but, I can live with that! "

I agree. It is time to put this childish bickering behind us. I've said some things on this board to Jay that I do need to apologize for. Jay I'm going to try your phone tonite.
I hope you pick up.

Hell, the guy picks up stray sheep,  What makes you think he wont pick up the phone?   :roflmao:   :roflmao:    :roflmao:   :roflmao:

Al

I gotta agree with Brent here. It would be nice to see you Boy's get through this. Life is to short to spend it bickering at each other.

Plus, it'd be nice to fly back out to Az. and share a stand or two with you guy's again (make it soon the older you two get the more you'll slow Brent and I down)  :eyebrow:  :biggrin:

JD