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Hamer and I got out for 1 stand this morning
After we got to where we were gonna hunt we walked about 1/4 mile to where we were gonna set up.

We walked in from the west with the wind coming from the south.The fox pro was set on the ground,yes on the ground,on a feild lane then we walked past it about 60 yards  on into a valley.We sat down on the hillside with a bunch of small trees behind us and had a good veiw of the farm lane  the pasture field ,and the direction we came from.
Glen fired up the fox pro with a howle and we got an answer right now about 300 yards on up the farm lane and we seen a flock of birds take off.A couple more howles then some distress sounds and no response I done a few howle on a hand call and got a response from further up the holler,some more distress sounds from the foxpro and we never seen the coyote.

I am wondering what we might have done wrong here

Could it have been last years pup and he wasn't looking for any confrotation.
Did we catch him out of his safe zone and he beat feet towards the den
Next time we hunt this should we set up on the other end of the holler? Thats where we got the last response when I howled  :shrug:

Usally when we hunt together we either get busted or get no response at all so this is somethi completely different for us

Ask any questions and post any info that might help us any and all info is welcome

Thanks

Here is a pic of what we seen on our way to the stand.This was a mile or so up the road

(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r300/bnccont/03-01-09020_edited.jpg)

Neat pic Bill.  I think our coyotes either come in or don't and that's all there is to it up here.  You guys hunt a totally different situation there so I'm not gonna guess.

When you get a response howl like that Bill......What do you think the coyote would expect next?
I have the same problem in that I want to hear him howl again .......so I howl....... :nono:
The coyote already knows where it came from now he wants to know what to do........
You can go many directions with this but I would have the farthest man back slip farther back and then distress or even howl to let that yote think the first yote was leaving and he would then slip in for a closer look perhaps. With a shooter quietly waiting the yote should try and come sniff where the dog (YOU) first howled.
Try and play out the whole game in your head and be right in it.
I know it wont work all of the time but trust me it dose work some of the time. :wink:
I hope this helps.

We rang the dinner bell on em after they howled.


I also think we got cut off by a cow. I seen her run down to the road well out in front of us. I never seen her come back up either. I'm thinking she seen the coyote(s) & ran them/it off.

I am such a novice at this that I have NO idea what you should have done. I can say that I checked out CCPs website and watched a video on yips and barks. My last time out, I got absolutely no response with howls, or with howls and distress, so I tried a howl and a few minutes later turned the Foxpro on the coyote barks and they came a runnin' just about a minute or two later. Might be worth a shot. Like I said, I have no clue so I try just about everything  I read about. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't, but I do make note of what does, when, what time of day, time of year, etc..

I can think of a couple things that MIGHT have come into play.

One may have been territories.
And without hearing you howl I'd have to hazard a guess and wonder if your howl was too intimidating. That's a wild assumption especially not knowing if you were dealing with the YOY or not.

Iwould not do destrees after i hear a howl give a lone howl back  in one hour or less dogs 99 will show up some will come in like screeming bancheees others come in not say anything bit your asss most dogs that have not been fooled with will howl back and forth with you the more they are mest with thems the ones that sneek in you think their not comeing in so you hit that howler or that call yep your busted iv done this alot howl get a howl back wait think their not showing hit destres booooom your busted dogs will not go down wind on you when howled  they come in right from were they answered blow a cry there going down wind  its hard to do when calling with somebody  but the best thing to do is wait and your cow did run your dog off  :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow: :wink:

Thanks for all the input here

Jim I had thought about the territories thing also
Me intimidating  :laf: Noway,well maybe  :nono:

We were sure hoping that coyote would come straight down the farm lane then we would't have to be so careful
as if he came down through the pasture.The cattle were up on the hill across from us and back behind the ecaller
except the one that ran down the hill

Glen one day we will mess up right and and that coyote will get hit with a 250grain 44mag hollow point  :biggrin:

LONE HOWLS DONT SCARE OFF ANY DOGS ENVATATION HOWLS WORK WELL TO  :wink:

We started with the FP Interrogation howl & the FP Female Invitation howl. We were calling dang near straight into the wind which was probably only about 2mph. And it makes sense they would come straight to the howls but circle downwind to the distress.


:wo:  Maybe we should have stayed longer. But with the howls further away & the cow running down to the lane I thought it was a good time to make our escape undetected for another day.

I hope you're right Bill!! I wouldn't mind seeing one get trampled by that 44.  :yoyo:

when you interagation howl the response you should get is either a challenge howl or you will get a bark threat howl either one of these are a aggresive dogs. the howls that i use are the lone howl or a female invataion all dogs of all sizes of all ages will respone to these two howls some of them take longer than others when your only howling your stand should be at least an hour or more after you here your first howl. over howling a stand after you here a dog response you will be doing more harm than you will  good lots of howls to begin a stand and proper howls less after you get a response learn what the howls mean so you can howl correct howls back.

If I am  reading your post right you goofed by expecting and asking the coyote to come down the same lane you just traveled yourselves.

And this is the biggest reason for beginers not to use howls.You can't really tell what your hearing from the responding animal. It took many years for me to be halfway sure of what I am hearing and still prefer other sounds to howls. And I don't use them on stand a lot either except in cases where I know I have a dominant dog out there.

Once you reached the bottom you should have placed the caller down wind of your chosen position. That way any animal using the trail would not be likely to ascosciate te sounds with your scent. Canine puppies or gray fox distress will beat the daylights out of howls any day because of the age classes of the animals in the area at this time of year. One or two of the pups are still hanging around and would likely be shy of coming to the howls. Only the alpha pair will work them and if your not in the bedroom or on teh trail they are using to gewt there, your not likely to gewt a response. Jimmie

We were walking west to east and the coyote was further east of us and the wind was coming from the south
And we were wanting the coyote to come to us on untravled ground

I kill pups on howls year round howls howled the right way will bring in any age dog spring time is one of the best times to howl the only reason most guys dont do well with howls is they cant howl bottom line  :yoyo: :yoyo:

Quotethe only reason most guys dont do well with howls is they cant howl bottom line

:roflmao: :roflmao: :laf: :laf:

wvhillbillyhowler, You have my full and undivided attention! A tutorial with your sound clips would be great! Thanks in advance. RP :biggrin:

some times i think old hillbilly is half coyote that man can howl it dont matter big dog little dog he can do all boys it :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Welcome to the site Donny, pull up a chair!

Welcome donny Feel free to chime in anywhere

So you finally got on, welcome aboard :congrats:

I use them when they will do me some good Hillbilly. Beginers don't need to put their whole attention on howls as the end all and be all. There are other sounds that will do them more good to start with while they are learning coyote habits and behaviors. There are many beginers out there trying to howl and they are making huge mistakes. Creating call shy animals is not in their best interest.

It is very plain your interest is totally wrapped around your selling howlers, not in the interest of the begining hunter. I would suggest you not insult me any further. Jimmie

 i back down from no man my intent is not to sell howlers i give the sonof guns away and  show men how to use them did you know you can make call shy dogs with destrees were there are few dogs and more game howles work better I promise you ITHINK YOU WERE INSULTING ME IT DONT BOTHER ME IM A BIG BOY    THE NEXT HOWLER WILL BE GIVEN TO A MEMBER ON FNF if anyone out there has trouble howling with any howler contact me I WILL HELP YOU LIKE I SAID BEFORE SOME MEN CANT US A HOWLER SOME NEVER WILL SOME I CAN HELP SOME I CANT BUT HOWLING IS AVERY POWERFUL TOOL LEARN IT USE IT  :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: :wink:

 :corn:

 :roflmao: @ Semp

       wvhillbillyhowler is a big proponent of howling.  I have known him for quite a while and he has worked with me quite a bit on trying to improve my howling with limited success.  That limited success is more due to my difficulty picking up new skills than it is with his teaching abilities.  He is really good at the howling and has used it effectively out West as well as here in the East.  When I recently purchased one of his horn howlers he spent at least an hour helping me get the sounds right.   A few nights later I used his howler and my improved howling skills to call in three coyotes to within 50 yards.  Problem was they were across a creek with lots of brush along the banks.  We even got up and moved to a location where the shooter could see one of the coyotes.  But because I had not loaded the gun properly all he got when he pulled the trigger was a, "CLICK".  My fault, not the calling or the howler's fault.  Instead I was amazed that the coyotes were so interested in the coyote vocalizations I was making that they stayed close by til we could move into position for a shot.
       I usually start most of my stands with distress sounds starting out quiet then getting louder as the stand progresses.  Then I usually finish the stand with some howls and some pup distress.  I'm starting to think that a little more howling might be more effective.  It couldn't be much worse considering the small amount of success I have had???  I plan to start some stands with a few howls then go to distress sounds.  I still consider myself to be new to hunting these coyotes and I'm open to learning from anyone who has suggestions.  Only thing I know for sure is, "You can't kill them from the recliner."

Jim

"I plan to start some stands with a few howls then go to distress sounds."

Frogman,
:confused: Yet when I say that...... I am told how wrong I am...... :confused:
I guess since I know so little I will just have to go practice all alone till I get it right....... :shrug:
I am tired of being dismissed in my many years hunting experience......M2C

Jon,
I think you and Jimmie would like each other if yall met in person......he is a good fella and I have learned a lot from him on here as I have learned some from you in the feild.
I think yall are reading way to much into this....we all hunt different and we do not agree on everything......
One thing I do know is I have seen many things work as well as not work when it comes to a coyote....
and there are never any guarantees.
I woud hate to see to good hunters get off on the wrong foot.My 2 Cents

Jimmie,
Jon is aggressive at making howlers but I have seen him give away more than he has sold. I just needed to say that. :wink:

I kinda expected some different views on this subject But i really didn't want to see name calling and
some punches being thrown here

Jimmie I have learned alot from your posts and from the day we spent in the woods together.
and I still take what you have to say as knowledge

Jon I only know you from your posts and what Al and Frogman has told me I have no doubt that you can hunt coyotes and I will still take your posts as knowledge.

I doubt that you will find 2 people that hunt excatly alike so please lets keep the comments to hunting and helping me kill my first coyote

I have already called them in and got busted or no shot or just plain missed

Thank you

It is a fact that coyotes can become call shy to distress sounds. It is also an old tale that they do not become call shy to howlers. I have already seen it proven in my area that they do!! This  came about with the newest rage from Primos in the randy anderson series of tapes and calls.  

I also know of a pair of hunters that were proponants of coyote vocals only. They have had to change their tune somewhat since the primos tapes caused this influx of uneducated beginners. Through a lack of knowledge these beginers  have made many mistakes.
Not enough information is out there about coyote behaviors and habits. Folks tend to think of them like turkeys or deer and they definately do not react the same way.

Alscalls, one of my favorite series of sounds when it's needed is an old male lone howl wait for several minutes and do a couple of series of rabbit or bird distress. Follow this up after several minutes with kiyii's and grey fox distress sounds, whipped pup. Make darned sure they cannot get downwind of you.

And whipped pup will work better than howls for all coyotes, when used alone. It works on the same principal as the challenge howl and is much easier for any one to do correctly with little practice.

And a rule of thumb is to always set an ecaller down wind to slightly crosswind. Never set it up on your entry path. Yes you have to go and place it but you are drawingf the animals to a position off your trail where they will scent you for sure.

When you insult people you get what you ask for. Its as simple as that. Especially when it is intentional. Jimmie

Thans Jimmie

insult people you better go back read it again you insulted me idont know were you got that i only howl go to my web you will find many dogs taken with my predator calls i told them men that when a dog howles back i do not go to distress i work the dogs with a howler  i have took many with distress in other states but here howls work better you hunt your way and i will hunt mine you drew first blood hillbilly not backing down you want my phone number its on my web  :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: hillbilly will not be posting anything to try to help on here you need some help howling you can contact me i will be glad to help well got to get back to work somebody got free howler comeing  :yoyo: :yoyo: :congrats: :congrats:

 :confused:

:biggrin:

Jimmie-- Help me out here. I'm not sure you understand me & Bill or we/I don't understand you.  :laf:  Here is a snap shot of where we were. The Blue is the truck. The brown is the path we took to the stand. We walked along the farm road for maybe 100yds. I set the e-caller along the side of the road at the top of a rise in the road(red X) then backtracked a couple yards to Bill. Then we walked thru the scrub bushes to a vantage point about 35yds above the road we expected them to come in on. The black is where they howled immediately. The white is where they howled from at the end & the green line is where the cow came running down to the farm road. The cow came running down after the last howls. I think they/it may have been coming to us then. The wind was in our face all the time. The easiest route for them to get downwind of us would have been to our right. Otherwise they would have had to go up a long hill & come a long ways around to get downwind of us. Do you still think we placed the e-caller wrong in this situation??   :shrug:  It just seemed like the best place for it with the wind in our face & all. I tell ya I just don't know what to do sometimes & that is excellent coyote ground.

And honestly I don't think it helped matters any when they lit up right away either. We were both totally  :shck: .  It kinda thru us for a loop as we weren't expecting that.  :laf:

(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee217/BrightwoodTurnings/hunting%20photos/Parkerhunt.jpg)

Hey glen I cleaned up the pic a little

(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r300/bnccont/Parkerhunt_edited.jpg)

Thanks GIT!!  :eyebrownod: :eyebrownod:

hold it, ho;d it, hold it!!! fellows there seems to be a disput on here between hillbilly and jimmie, i think jimmy has misunderstood what hillbilly has posted about educating coyotes with howls, that most people can't howl. what hillbilly means by this is most peoples teeth are not level there for they can not lock open reeds down to rails there for if you do not lock reed down to both rails you can not howl. howling takes alot of practice i know i am a student of his i had a primos howler that i could not howl on hillbilly makes special mouth pieces that anyone can howl on with very little practice. howls that do not sound like coyotes educate and do not produce dogs. he has made these mouth pieces for people all over the world, so if you have trouble with blowing one of his howlers he will make one for you that you can master. :yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: i hope this will clear this up.

Donnie, Hillbillies response in post fourteen was in direct response to my post above. Nothing said about folks and teeth problems there. The way it was written was a shot at me, not a generalization. If that was the way he intended it he should have explained it better.

And I agree that most people have problems with open reed calls because of that and th fact that many mouth pieces are not built so that all folks can use them. The primos calls are among the worst of the lot. It took me ten minutes to figure them out myself. If they are not positioned just right they won't howl for stuff !! The primos calls were built for Randy anderson and his style of calling . Not every one uses this style or has enough experience to learn to adapt to it.


Hammer, have you and Bill discussed this , looking at what you are showing me?  Have you thought about the possibiklity that the coyote saw or heard you set up? From what you show me it is no more than six to eigfht hundred yards from where you set up to where the coyote howled from.

Your choice was not really a bad one except for the fact that this is a regularly used farm road. They expect humans there on a regular basis and are watchuing for them. Given the winds you show me, there are three other setups in this farm.

The first is above your position at te end of the lane running north at the point of the woods there. You give te animals cover to come to you through that finger of woods.

Second is due south of the coyotes position where he first howled along that creek with the open pasture behind you. All the travel lanes come together at that point. The road , hte stream, and the woodsline coming from the north of it.

Third is on hte fencerow south of th coyotes last position you heard. For the same reasons I gave above plus you are closer to bedding grounds. And I would be within fifty yards of that corner.

That coyote was leaving and spooked the cow out into the open where the cow could manuver if it had to. Only one breed of cow will chase a coyote and that is a Brahman. That is why farmers want us to kill the coyotes that are chasing their cows. Stock killers are how I got into this bussiness in the first place. Note the straight line between where you first heard it and the last. Note how the animal stuck to the cover available. It had the cover to come to you by that road if it had not seen or heard something to tell it otherwise.

And one more position if I were hunting this farm at night. See that lone tree out on the hill in the pasture?

Forgot something. Always expect an answer to your howls if your hunting early in the morning. They are still comfortable the first hour or so and will often answer.Not always within that short a time frame but they answer a good deal of the time. I use it to find out if I am ahead of them or behind them on th way to th bedding area.Jimmie

Jimmie
We have talked about this When we we were done with the stand
And to show you that some of your teachings didn't go in one ear and out the other

After we were done calling and we were certian the coyote ran up the holler (his safe zone  :shrug: )
I did tell Glen that we maybe should have called this holler from the other end.Meaning the fence row or even
deeper in the big woods.

It was just a guess when I said the coyote responded about 300 yards in front of us,the fence row where the white x is was no more then 800 to 900 yards  in front of us.

On the way back to the truck we stopped to just look and talk a bit I told Glen that we should do a stand in the
trees just from the truck but we had already exposed that area so we let it go this time

Thanks Jimmie

Thanks Jimmie. I appreciate your help. I've also been thinking it might have been better to call this place after about 9AM or an hour or so before dark too. The only problem is the wind is rarely right here. I'll keep working on these coyotes from time to time & sooner or later a dumb one has to stop in Bill's crosshairs. It's happened for me so I know it will happen for Bill.  :wink:

 :confused:  Jimmie as many times as I've seen you say that's a beginner mistake or your doing this or that all wrong... seems strange for you to get all bowed up when a fella says the same thing to you.  When you think your to good to try to learn something from someone... even if you don't agree with them, it's a guarantee you ain't going to learn any more.

Bill, If you got a vocal response then I would have detemined what type of response it was. Your next move hinders on that knowledge. I see you said that coyotes tend to come straight to howling rather than circle way wide, that's not really the case. They tend to circle alot wider with howls than to distress sounds here for me. UNLESS it's a dominat pair that has established their territory! They will come in balls to the wall, dead set on kicking your ass!

I may have missed it but, what type of vocal response did you get? did it bark then howl? just a deep throaty howl with no bark? long drawn out mono toned howl?

JD

Yotehunter, I take no offense when someone thinks I am wrong and proceeds to discuss his reasons. That is how we learn from each other. When someone implies I or anyone else on this board is an idiot and know nothing, that is another story all together.

I happen to agree with canine about howling. In my experience a sure way to get a coyote to manuver down wind is to howl. Beginers are just startring to understand setup and make a lot of mistakes that hopefully they learn from.In the case abo0ve Bill and Hammer did not cut off the back door with an open area. They also used a place that was well known to the animals for human activity. I have learned the hard way that even permanant deer stands are a no no. That stand is almost always placed in the perfect spot for a setup , but the animals living there know tha humans use it and arre wary when they aproach. Their positive move was to give the coyote cover in front to aproach.

In all cases you have to try and cut off that back door aproach. Be it with distress or howling.Use th terrain or open areas to do this. Use that steep ridgeline . Get out on that long sloping point with steep sides. Take a few extra minutes and think about how a coyote aproaches things before you setup. That few minutes can mean the diference in having a fair chance at taking that animal.That coyote is not going to expend any more energy than it has too, nor is it going to expose itself if it has another way to aproach.

The diferences in howls is why I firmly believe that beginers are much better off using a distress sound that will piss of the coyote rather than howls. I don't have to worry about territories or other factors that may be involved. I am still picking that fight and they come right on in with their tails on fire if I have done my job with setup. Jimmie

Quote from: Jimmie in Ky on March 25, 2009, 02:33:38 PM
The diferences in howls is why I firmly believe that beginers are much better off using a distress sound that will piss of the coyote rather than howls. I don't have to worry about territories or other factors that may be involved. I am still picking that fight and they come right on in with their tails on fire if I have done my job with setup. Jimmie

I am a beginner, I have trapped them for years but have been reading up on the Eastern coyotes for about a year and hunting them just a few months.  I have been practicing my howling at home but as for 'knowing the language I do not'  I have a fox pro and have used a lone howl on a few stands but not to often as I really dont know what I am saying to them.  I have been using distress mainly.  I would like to learn the language and learn the howling techniques.  My question is what is the best way for me to do that without educating the coyotes?  Everything I know I've learned from FnF and Alscalls.  Theres nobody that lives close to me that hunts them that can show me anything so all I have is pretty much trial and error.  What do you recommend?

I just did a search for Rich cronks sound waves and found them on his website. http://www.cronkcalls.com

I can also highly recomend his calls to anyone. I have been using them for years now.

I don't know if Canine has his up or not, but he is a world class caller himself and can not only walk the walk but do th talk. He is as good or better than many I have heard in person. He uses and prefers the e.l.k mouth piece with latex reed. I also know his teacher and miss his presence here a good deal. As  a team they were two of the best coyote killers I know.

I have never said I don't believe in howling as a tool to an end. But it has it's place and time just like any other sound. Just don't get hung up on it as the end all and be all.Scouting and Setup are far more important than anything you do.

A quick and fast way for you to do and learn the whipped pup is to use the gray fox distress on your foxpro and do yipe , yipe , yipe or ki yi sounds with an open reed. Don't do them constant. Mix them in about 30 ro 40 seconds apart. Do this for two minutes and shut he r off a while. Then repeat it after two or three minutes.

JD
We started our stand with an interagation howl the response we got was about a 5 second howl if there was
a bark before the howl I didn't hear it cause the foxpro was still howling when the coyote started.

When I howled I gave 1 bark then about a 5 second howl and the respose I got was just as quick as we got when we opened the stand

Bill, It's hard to really say without being there.

Heres what I do though with vocal responses whether it's a single coyote or a pack.

After they respond vocally I'll answer back and then let them dictate from there on out (to a point).

Usually if they shut up I'll sit in silence and watch for them heading downwind. After 5 to 10 minutes if I get no visual or another howl from them, I'll howl again. If they respond I repeat my first step. If they do not respond vocally, I will howl 3 to 4 times with different tones, pause for a minute or 2 then maybe throw out a coyote fight to them, still nothing I'll go to pup distress. More times it's the pup distress that they can't take and will come in.

JD

  Bill and Glen it sounds like you too had a great time whether you killed a coyote are not. There is no substitute for time in the field. These are the things that make us all better coyote hunters. I have had lots of stands not work out or second guess what I was doing.

Main thing is keep at it. What works for me on stand A doesn't mean it will work on stand B. Even on stands that work I still say things like " I wish I had done this or that" it's just part of coyote hunting. After all these years of coyote hunting I still learn and try new things.

QuoteI'm thinking she seen the coyote(s) & ran them/it off.

After all these years I still love hunting around cows. They have a way of letting me know a coyote is near before I do.(plus they allow me more movement) As far as the cow running off the coyote NO. A cow may detour a coyote a few yards but run it off from coming to a call NO. I have seen too many coyotes bed in cow pastures or sunning in cow pastures and observed and killed to many coyotes in with cows to even ponder the thought of a cow running a coyote off.

I have on several occasions through the years had a coyote howl in response to me. In most all those cases the coyotes sneak in real slow. A few came in fast and mad but most slow. To help incite a response I have barked and yelped and had them come on in. It has been studied that most coyotes that bark and yelp or some what skidish and are trying to make themselves feel comfortable. So by the barks and yelps it lets the coyote know there is another coyote present and it is more than likely not dominate. By continuing the barks and yelps it also adds to there curiosity.( maybe a scared dog)

Bottom line for me is if I feel  a coyote responded to me and was heading my way and I did not kill or have the opportunity to kill it then I setup wrong.

Canine and Jimmy-N-KY gave some good advice. Jimmy has been chasing coyote for a long, long time and so has Canine. JD and Brent Saxton are the greatest sounding coyote vocalist I have ever known with Rich Higgins and Tyler Higgins right on there heals. Stan and Brian are the greatest coyote vocal only hunters I have ever known.

I have tried howling alot and have given it several good runs. My success here was not as nearly as good as just staying with distress so I mostly stick to that. I do how ever always end my sets with barks and yelps and have had good success doing so in the past 5 years of doing that on every stand. Pup whines are always in season and works very well.

As I have always lived by the 3 S's Scouting, setup and sound and in that order.


  wvhillbillyhowler I understand your zeal in wanting to give your thoughts on the matter. I too as many others took offense to your......

Quotemost guys dont do well with howls is they cant howl bottom line

Does Howling work YES is it my highest percentage sound NO. I tend to go with my higher percentage sounds.


Just remember there are many new coyote hunters here on the forums but there are many 20 + year coyote hunting veterans here that will call bullshit.

Thanks a bunch Rich and Jimmie  :yoyo:  That means alot coming from you guy's.

JD

Thanks to everybody. I sure do appreciate your input on this & Thanks to Bill for being a good hunting partner & a better friend.  :yoyo:

Right back at ya Glen

Real good Info from everybody.  I know I'm learning and appreciate it.