+P Ammunition

[nastygunz]

Damn Taurus has no email but I will call their number at my own expense!!! Knowledge has no price ! (305-624-1115)

[slagmaker]

I checked on line and there warrenty states not to use +P in anything but steel revolvers "no alluminum or alloy cylinder revolvers" but stopped short of dirrectly stating 357mag. I am not sure if the revlover I saw burst was steel or alloy.  Please post your findings and I will post what I come up with.

[coyote101]

I'm no metallurgist, but I can't imagine how it would be physically possible to make a gun that can safely handle the pressure of a .357 magnum load but not the much lower pressure of a .38 special +p load. Or a manufacturer that would make one if it were possible. That would be asking for a ruinous lawsuit. That is the reason that the .357 magnum case is longer in the first place; to prevent it beinging loaded in a firearm designed for the much lower pressure .38 special. 

Pat   

[5 SHOTS]

I have to agree with Slag on this (at least until he is proven wrong  ) The max pressure isn't the problem, it is how the pressure curve develops. The magnums use a slow burning powder that develops pressure slower than the fast burning powder used in the +p loads.  Something along the line of tapping a nail with a hammer, vs swinging the same hammer at the same nail.

[CCP]

5 SHOTS I have to disagree  look through the loading manual at your powders and weights for both cartridges. Pressure spikes and curves do have some bearing but cant see it being a factor in 38 versus .357. I have loaded 38's and 357's for more years than I can count in about every configuration from revolvers to single shot Thompson's. I have some 190 cast 38's I shoot in a 357 I wouldnt dare put in a 38 even if were rated for +p+.

I believe there were other contributing factors to Slag's experience or it was a fluke. There have been 38's and .357's blow up in the past with just standard loads for one reason or another.

In Slag's defense if I had this happen to me I my be saying the same thing. Anything is possible but it must be so rare manufactures of guns and ammo insurance companies are willing to take the risk.

Years ago I and a friend were shooting his 357 revolver, he fired a cylinder real fast and at the 5th shot it was loud and bulged the barrel. There were 3 squibs stuck in the barrel. Resulted in a bulged barrel but no other fractures. These were full house H110 loads (except for maybe 3 )If we repeated it who's to say the cylinder would have exploded.

On another note.
I shot more than a few thousand rounds of Norinco 7.62x39 out of a Norinco SKS, my buddy buys a Russian SKS and goes out back of the house with me and within 2 mags his bolt explodes. He would not shoot Norinco ammo ever again and advised everyone else not too. I on the other hand based on my experience advised everyone to not shoot a Russian SKS. Case of same experience different conclusion.

[slagmaker]

That is how the article reads Art. it isnt the max pressure it is the pressure curve. Store bought ammo uses the faster powders whereas you can handload with the slower stuff.  Like pressurising an air system. if ya just throw the valve open your gona blow seals or rupture pressure vessels but if you slowly open the valve your good to go.

I am still diggin I have the data here, just gots to find it.

[KySongDog]

Here is some more info.    The .38 special is loaded to about 17,000 c.u.p.  The +P .38 special is loaded about 9% hotter at 18,500 c.u.p.  The standard  .357 magnum is loaded to around 35,000 c.u.p.   Conclusion:

There is NO WAY a +P .38 special is going to blow up a .357 mag hand gun!

[slagmaker]

.38 Special is rated at 17,000 PSI
.38 Special +P is rated at 20,000 PSI
.357 Magnum is rated at 35,000 PSI

repeat of information

It is not the max pressure that does it but the pressure curve. the +P builds at a faster rate. Same principle as 100PSI can destroy a baldder tank rated at 300PSI if the air pressure is dumped to it to fast.  Not all 357mag are suseptible to this. Older and certain alloy models.

[weedwalker]

.38 Special is rated at 17,000 PSI
.38 Special +P is rated at 20,000 PSI
.357 Magnum is rated at 35,000 PSI

It is not the max pressure that does it but the pressure curve. the +P builds at a faster rate. Same principle as 100PSI can destroy a baldder tank rated at 300PSI if the air pressure is dumped to it to fast.  Not all 357mag are suseptible to this. Older and certain alloy models.

From the Remington Ballistics Chart, a 158 gr hollow point fired from a .38 +P leaves the barrel at 890 fps. The same bullet out of a .357 leaves the barrel at 1235 fps. Your theory of "filling the tank faster" would tend to lead to the .357 as that cylinder "fills up faster" with the gas of the shot.
I'm thinking Bear, you might just have to bite the bullet on this one and admit that maybe you were mis-informed by the person that told you this.

[slagmaker]

I will find my book and let you know.

[nastygunz]

Now now gentlemen there is no right and wrong in spirited debate  ..I think he brought up an interesting question that made me do a little research anyways as I use both rounds..I did call Taurus today, what a PIA..."all customer service reps are busy"..."if you would like to leave a message"..."please push option 1"...anywho they did play some good patriotic music while I waited...so I got a live person, posed a question, is it safe to shoot .38+P out of Taurus .357 revolvers, the answer was "yes as long as the ammo is loaded to SAAMI specs"...P+P is a no-no according to them...as stated before my gun is the one in my avatar, a chunk of steel and I have shot +P many times, here is some other stuff off the Taurus web site:

WARNING concerning ammunition marked “+P” and “+P+”. Recently there have
been many developments by ammunition manufacturers and reloaders, not all of them
good. It seems some ammunition manufacturers and reloaders are in a horsepower race
to see who can develop the most case pressure and muzzle velocity with little regard for
practicality or safety. Some of these loads exceed common sense and can virtually tear
metal apart. Taurus Firearms rated for “+P” ammunition are rated for Sporting Arms and
Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) compliant “+P” ammunition. SAAMI does
not recognize any “+P+” ammunition at all. It is DANGEROUS to fire “+P+”
ammunition in any Taurus firearm and if you do so you may be seriously injured or
killed.
In addition, it seems some ammunition marked “+P” is not SAAMI compliant either.
There are only four calibers that can carry a “+P” rating from SAAMI. They are 38
Special +P, 9mm Luger +P, 38 Super Automatic and 45 Automatic +P. There are no
other SAAMI approved “+P” loads. Any ammunition in any other caliber marked “+P”
is not SAAMI compliant, may be dangerous and should not be used. Whenever you are
buying “+P” ammunition, look for a notation on the box that states that the ammunition is
SAAMI compliant!
DANGER for “+P+”
Never use “Plus -P -Plus” (+P+) rated ammunition in any Taurus firearm. The
Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) does not recognize
such ratings and such ammunition can be very dangerous. Firing such ammunition can
cause catastrophic failure in firearms resulting in serious bodily injury or death.
WARNING for “+P”
Only fire SAAMI rated Plus P (“+P”) ammunition in Taurus Models designated by Taurus
for +P use. Firing +P ammunition in other Taurus products may be dangerous and can
result in serious bodily injury or death. Those Models are:
Model 85 small frame revolver in 38 Special.
Model 850 small frame revolver in 38 Special.
Model 851 small frame revolver in 38 Special.
Model 85 Polymer small frame revolver in 38 Special.
Model 82 medium frame revolver in 38 Special.
Model 817 medium frame revolver in 38 Special.
All firearms chambered in 38 Super Automatic.
All firearms chambered in 45 Automatic. (ACP)
All firearms chambered in 9mm Luger.
WARNING
Even if your Taurus firearm is rated for Plus-P (“+P”) ammunition, such ammunition
generates pressures significantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard
ammunition. Such pressures may affect the useful life of the firearm or exceed the margin
of safety built into many firearms. Unless you need +P ammunition, do not use it,
particularly for practice.

And that's it for me, anymore research and phone calls and I am sending Jimbo a bill

[nastygunz]

See this thread was educational I learned what c.u.p is 

Here is some more info.    The .38 special is loaded to about 17,000 c.u.p.  The +P .38 special is loaded about 9% hotter at 18,500 c.u.p.  The standard  .357 magnum is loaded to around 35,000 c.u.p.   Conclusion:

There is NO WAY a +P .38 special is going to blow up a .357 mag hand gun!

[coyote101]

These are excerpts from the Smith & Wesson manual taken from their website:

Safety & Instruction Manual
Revolvers
- Modern Style -

Additional ammunition calibers can be fired from the
following list of select calibers:

Caliber on Barrel  Can also Fire

.500 S&W MAG    .500 Special
.460 S&W MAG    .45 Colt, .454 Casull
.45 Colt              .45 Schofield, .45 S&W,
.45 S&W             .45 Schofield
.45 ACP              .45 Auto Rim (some revolvers only)*
.44 Magnum        .44 Special
10MM AUTO        .40 S&W
.357 Magnum      .38 Special, .38 Special +P
.22LR                 .22L, .22 Short (in revolvers only)

“Plus-P-Plus (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith & Wesson
firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates that it exceeds
established industry standards, but the designation does not represent
defined pressure limits and therefore such ammunition may vary significantly
as to the pressures generated.

The problem with +P+ ammunition is that there is no SAAMI standard. If they don't know the max pressure generated by a loading, firearms manufacturers have no way to know if their firearm can safely handle that load. Consequently, for liability reasons they have to say don't use it.

Pat

[slagmaker]

That is exectally the warrenty info I read nasty but it still stops short of stating the 357mag.  The info I had only stated a couple 357mag firearms and even then these are old like pre 80's models. BUT it still has me wanting to find the old books. HELL maybe the info in them isnt any good any more but it was in print and was guidelines to follow at that time. Still would be if you find yourself in that combination/situataion.

Hey I shoot 38SPL+P out of my three screw blackhawk, not on a regular bassis, that stuff is expensive fodder for punching paper. There are only "some" 357mags that you should not use the +P rounds on. And even then I dont have the model/makes or any of that info just the data on why. 

Who has the info of when the +P rounds were first put into production. I know they were FBI/Govmnt rounds when they were new to help keep up with firepower that the baddies were packin. When the round were new SAAMI standards may have been lacking on these. 

[slagmaker]

I would love to know if I can shoot the +P+ 45ACP rounds out of my Ruger P90. Dont think I can but I would love to know for sure

[nastygunz]

I did learn another thing I have seen +P+ before n thought about buying some I am def gunna pass on that. Ill tell you one thing in my carry gun the +P def has a bark n bite you know you aint shooting normal .38 in it for sure.

[FinsnFur]

Healthy debate feeds the starving soul of knowledge.
There, how do ya like THAT one Pat?

[slagmaker]

According to my Speer reloading manual #14

The 38SPL+P was brought about in  the 1930's. Lots older than I thought. When first concieved these loads were intended for firing only in heavy Colt and Smith and Wesson revolvers built on 44 special frames. Cases were stamped "38HV, 38HS or 38/44" to indiacate the higher pressure..... For consistency in identifing higher pressure ammo, the firearms industry adopted the +P headstamp in 1974.

Last paragraph of the chapter......... Some revolvers are not rated for 38special +P ammunition. Contact your firearm's manufacturer--not the ammo makers-- and follow their recommendations on the use of this ammunition. Firearms not approved for +P ammunition may show accelerated wear if subjected to continuous firing with +P ammo.
In this last paragraph I would assume they are only refering to the 38SPL caliber revolvers and not the 357mag.

This is still not the info I was talking about but it gives you a time line that I am concerned with, mid 70's to mid 80's

[nastygunz]

"Healthy debate feeds the starving soul of knowledge."

That...was...beautiful, man 

[coyote101]

Healthy debate feeds the starving soul of knowledge.
There, how do ya like THAT one Pat?

I was awestruck by the depth of thought conveyed in those few simple words.

Pat