FinsandFur.net Forums

In the Molded tone boards thread the question came up about Rick Cronks howler sales if he used a molded tone board....... well he made a post on PM (see link below) for thoughts and opinions on A molded CRONK howler. He now has a 2 page list of people who want to buy one.




http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=hob&Number=52526906&page=0&fpart=1

Never thought I'd see the day

mr. sparrow's you sound like a tattle tale. Rich is a good person dont  dont say thing's about him.  i look up to the older callmaker's. Rick

A two page list doesn't mean he'll sell a lot.  :wink:  His rep/name alone probably filled those two pages. Does he mention what he'll ask for them? I'm sure it wont be for $70. If its priced right for the user he'll sell allot.

If its priced to high, common sense dictates, for a few extra bucks, the customer can get a  real custom horn howler from one of the many howler makers, and has a bit of a personal touch.   :wink:

Theres a boat load of production howlers out there ya can have in your hands for a dime a dozen, unless someone finds the magical sales pitch or creates a howler that functions differently and is far better then the rest, it just seem like its not a practical venture.

I could be wrong, and Joe and Loren of KO would be two fellers that might be able to say one way or the other, but don't get excited yet Aaron.  :sneer:

great reply todd. not going to get over 30.00 a little more maybe. Rick

Well I ventured over to above said post.  :innocentwhistle: I noticed from a board of suposedly 10,000 plus members, of those two pages there was a grand total of 8 orders. Mind ya before a price is even given, so that might be subjetc to change.

It was kinda in the wrong forum, but I guess the moderators over looked that.  :innocentwhistle:

On that same first page I saw a nice howler by Rick for $28, and a couple of nice howlers by Ninth for $40 (By the way ninth the howler that ya had with the tone board made from the horn, is very classy), but what I most impotantly noticed was that Loren auctioned off a molded howler. Now this isn't just the basic molded howler, this was one of the limited run of white ones, and it only went for $37.  With all this information at hand what do ya see in the big picture?

So I stand by the statement I made about Rich not selling as many, if they were molded.  :wink:

Now with that said, I ordered a KO howler (Not a white one), and heck I might even order a Cronk one, but my motivations are that of a collector not a user. They might sound super, but I would still spend the extra few bucks for the personal touch of a custom horn howler, and in a couple of cases, pay less. I support all these guys and wish them the best, but don't hold the fact that I'm practical and honest against me.  :iroll:

I am glad to see that Rich is going to be able to take advantage of the growing predator call market.  I wish him all the luck in the world with his new venture

He has earned his place and deserves all he gets.   His howlers, antler calls  and Killer Calls made his reputation.   

However Aaron, the point that Rich is going to be coming out with a molded howler is  not relative to the molded tone baord thread in the context that you want it to be.

First, the point we were trying to make in that thread is that if Rich had started making howlers and other calls with molded tone boards, he probably would not have achieved the status he has today.

Your post, tries to put a spin on what Rich is actually doing.  If you read his post on Huntmasters, he says that he is using a cow horn that he himself built, and he is tuning the tone board which is a part of the horn.  He is not using a molded tone board in this call.   He is going to make the entire call by hand, and then have it molded.  There is a difference.   

Finally Aaron, please, understand that no one here cares what you use for a tione board.  If you make them or buy them makes no difference.   If your customers like them, they will buy them and use them.   If they don't they wont.  It's really that simple.   

The art of making game calls should be fun and rewarding.  To make something with your own hands, to hold the finsihed product and then present it with pride for the world to see, to use it in the field to call and take game, is what this is all about.  Not weather you want to use a molded tone board or make your own.

The art of making game calls is also personal.  One may want to make several calls a day or week, and market them as good servicable calls to hunters.   Another may want to make one of a kind calls that may take a week or more to produce.  The beauty of it is that it is your choice.   

It really isn't worth arguing over.  Our time could be much better spent infront of the lathe doing what we love to do, each in our own way.

Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

Tattle tale....... :roflmao:

Rick,
Here are some quotes from the tone board thread. I was simply pointing out that Rich Cronk was talking about selling molded howlers (with molded tone boards) and there is a growing waiting list for them.

Quote from: THO Game Calls on January 26, 2007, 11:43:12 PM
And finally, if you think I am completely crazy, or just some nut, ask yourself how it is that Rich Cronk and use PVC for the barrels of his open reeds, sell them for more than just about anyone, and sell everyone he makes.   You think he would be able to do that if he was sticking a molded tone board in the end of a piece of plastic pipe?

Quote from: AWSparrows on January 27, 2007, 02:37:39 PM
Honestly.....yes I think if Rich started using molded tone boards they would still sell.
I truely believe there is more to selling calls for a good price than the call alone.

Quote from: Todd Rahm on January 27, 2007, 05:43:10 PM
%110 correct........one thing that keeps me coming back for one is the spinner behind the call.  Very good point Aaron

Todd,
You are correct, money talks and we'll have to wait and see the price and see who still wants one.


Aaron

Al,

In the molded tone boards thread I was not talking about if Rich would be where he is at or not if he was using molded tone boards. I was talking about if he started using them with his Rep. they would sell, rightfully so I guess.

Aaron

That is the point Aaron....

If Rich Cronk had started out using molded tone boards for his howlers and other calls, he would not be able to sell a cow horn holwer for 70 bucks today.  He would not have the rep he has today and he would not be able to sell them for what he does today.   

Finally, please get your fact straight.  Rich is not using a molded tone board in these calls.

Rich is making the call, including he tone board

He is then having the entre thing molded.

There is a HUGE difference between doing what Rich Cronk is doing and the current trend among call makers today.  Not only predator call makers but duck and goose call makers too.  

What is going to sell this call is Rich Cronks reputation for being able to make and tune a tone board.

Not his reputation for being able to take one out of a box and stick it in a hole in the end of a call.

There really is no need to .....

(http://members.aol.com/thogamecalls/dh.jpg)

beat the proverbial dead horse on this issue any longer is there?

Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

ooohhhh......I see said the blind man!

Its acceptable for someone to use molded tone boards as long as they design it and have someone else mold it for them.

Would these still be considered a custom call then?? :confused:
Or
Is it an acceptable practice only for those who have "earned their stripes"?? :shrug:


I'm not trying to start anything, I obviously do not have a problem with it since I use MTB's. I would just like some clarification as to when and how MTB's are acceptable to use in custom calls.

Aaron

just to let people know i spent over three hundred dollar's last week on mandrel's and a jig.  buy's more jig's. when i finnish my shop soon.  i'll have the music playing. sitting there in comfort making a toneboard. i'm excited. OK THIS TALK IS HURTING LORENS BUSSINESS I WAS GOING TO ORDER 50 TONEBOARDS BUT IF I DO WILL I STAY BEING A LOWER CLASS CALLMAKER. THIS STUFF HAS GOT ME MIXED UP I'M GOING TO DROP MY PLASTICSPRINGHORN CALL. DONT FEEL RIGHT MAKING THEM AFTER ALL THE TALK SPARROWS THING WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT FELLOW CALLMAKERS. REASON I'M TALKING THIS WAY IS CALLMAKING ON A CERTAIN BOARD HAS CHANGED GREATLY. THERE IS COPYING' NO MORAL'S ANYMORE. IT IS JUST NUT'S. I CANT MAKE A GOOD CALL ANY MORE.NOT FOR THE MONEY EITHER.RIGHT NOW I FEEL LIKE IF I USE A MOLDED TONEBOARD I'M A SHIT CALLER.Rickt

my post is towards sparrow's think about how your talking. Rick

Quote from: bearmanric on March 20, 2007, 12:21:23 PM
my post is towards sparrow's think about how your talking. Rick

Rick,
:confused: You lost me,  I'm not sure what your trying to say exactly.  :confused:

Aaron

your just saying us callmakers that use a molded toneboard isnt going any were. i'm confused not going to make any more open reed's for awhile. just torn what direction to go now. Rick

Rick,

I'm not trying to say that, I use molded tone boards also.
This whole molded tone board mess was brought up about how some call makers using molded tone boards were not doing a nice job of "blending" the molded tone board into the turned call body. I agree with that, some call makers molded tone boards look "out of place" in the call body they turned/made.
I think your open reeds look very nice. You do a great job mating your tone boards to your call body/barrel.

The molded tone boards issue took a turn for the worst after a bit. I was told I should not consider my open reed calls to be custom calls because I did not make the tone board.
I shared my opinions and I mentioned that I was confused about why its acceptable to use a JC tone board in an enclosed reed call but its not acceptable to use a molded tone board in an open reed call.
Ladobe answered saying:

QuoteAs one who had to make his own internal reeds for many years out of literally everything except the kitchen sink because no commercial reeds were available... I can assure you only a crazy person would still do it.

What I got out of that is, Making tone boards for enclosed reed calls was not easy, time consuming, and a pain in the ass. So commercial reeds were used and accepted when they became available.
:wo: Although "easier" than making enclosed reed tone boards, open reed tone boards are not easy, time consuming, and can be a pain in the ass and there is now a bunch of different molded tone boards available so why is using them frowned at ??
I guess its good for the goose but not the gander. :wo:

I feel each type has its place,

Custom calls, hand made 100% (tone board & body):
Deserve to fetch a better price, either from collectors, the hunter with money to burn, or the serious hunter who wants something special.

Custom calls, all other calls being built one at a time by a single person:
More affordable calls for the everyday hunter who wants something different but can not afford (or justify) $75-$125 bucks for a cow horn or $45-$70 bucks for a closed reed call.

Thanks for listening
Aaron Sparrow

very good post. see i want to make toneboard and i'm going to soon. everyone has there call price's way down.i dont want to use my real good wood's. i had a great price on to killer tuned snakewood call's last week. everyone want's the cheap stuff. this is kinda sad to say but i use to buy alot of the other callmaker's call's. i dont any more. so i have a idea were todd and yo guy's are coming from. thing's have changed for the worse. sorry Sparrow's if i implied anything this call making stuff is messed up right now. Rick

The only people you two should be concerned about how they view your calls are your customers and the collectors down the road.  What anyone else thinks doesn't mean a thing.

The mere fact that you try justify what you use in your calls though, says you are uncomfortable about it and want other call makers to tell you it's OK to use the molded tone boards.


OK - if that is what you want


It's OK To Use Molded Tone Boards  

Happy now?   Chill out.  This isn't PMS.   You can post your calls here and no one is going to beat you up about what you make or what you use or even what you think.   

Aaron, I have not seen one person say anything negative about any of your calls on this forum.

Rick, I have not seen anyone say anything negative about your calls on this forum.

Seems to me, the only two people beating this dead horse are you two guys.

Give it up. 

Use what you want, make the calls you want and be happy.   If you want to fight, go back to PMS and have at it.    Life is too short you guys, just make the best calls YOU can and learn to live with it.   

AL
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

sorry tho make it sound like were not going to be anything if we use molded tone board's when you get like this no use talking. i'm done using the molded toneboard just to much bullshit.   i'm going to check out some machinest this week see about getting jig's. Rick

sorry every one i just come here and that's all i see is your not a custom call maker if you use the molded tone board.  i got caught up in it yes i feel like the call's i make are infurior. work very hard on my call's.  sorry if i caused a problem. take care. Rick

QuoteIt's OK To Use Molded Tone Boards  

:whew: Thanks Al

I'm not uncomfortable with my calls nor am I trying to justify my use of molded tone boards. It kinda erked me when someone told me I should not consider my calls as custom calls and then I was givin that same impression here. I just like to hear others thoughts and opinions on the matter.


With a wife, three young kids (4th on the way), house with 3 acres of grass to mow, a cabin to maintain, 3 dogs, 2 cats, hunting everything else (besides fox & coyotes), trapping, other hobbys: drag racing/showing my cars & rock crawling my truck, hiking, fishing, and the list goes on & on, I'm not near as serious about call making as you guys. I make calls mostly right before and during fox/coyote season. I have not even looked at my lathe in a few weeks, I got back into 4-wheeling and have been working on my truck.
To sum it all up I'm happy with what I make in the time I have to make it.

To my knowledge no one was/is fighting. :shrug:
Sorry to get ya worked up.
Aaron

Both of you guys need to step back and look at your work and ask yourself if you are happy with what you are doing.  If you answer that question with YES, then it should not make any difference what other people think.  Oh I know we all want the approval of others, and it hurts when we don't get it or we hear that someone said this or that about our calls.  It's a tough pill to swallow. 

But if you want to really get some perspective on this whole call making thing, go have a look at some of the best trumpet call makers,  Even some of the duck call guys, though that market is getting just as flooded as the predator call market is, and you will walk away just shaking your head and wondering just how the heck they do what they do.  It will either make you quit or strive to do better.  The first time you see a matched set of 4 ivory trumpets in a hand made box, with real gold bands, and inlays and opals and all the other goodies, you will have a reall hard time calling yourself a custom call maker.  You'll want to go hide under a rug somewhere.  But both of you have great potential.  Aaron you laminate as well as anyone, and you have some beautiful woods.   Rick, your turning has come farther than anyone else on these boards in the last 3 or 4 years.   You practically brought all the spring bok and other fancy horns into the predator call world by yourself.   

For each of us though, there is a path we want to follow wth this hobby.  Some may want to carve or use fancy woods or exoctic horns and make calls that are just too darn pretty to take into the woods.  Some may want to make calls that call critters by the droves and could care less how they look.  The bottom line, is it is your choice.   Remember that we do this for fun, for enjoyment, and for the pride of making something with our own hands.   That other people appreciate it is a bonus, but it is not the end all if we are doing the best we can to achieve our goals and we are happy with our results.

I hope to see both of you post calls here.  Molded tone boards or ones you made makes no difference.   Put your best work out there and be proud of it.  No one in the workd can fault you for that. 

AL
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

thank's Al that make's sense. i just have to keep working on my toneboard's it will come to me and do the other to get's frustrating.. if you want you can bonk me with one of your bonker's. those are extremely nice. Rick

Al,

Great post, VERY true.

Thanks

Hey fellers,  :biggrin:

I think there are several different issues going here.

The initial "Tone Board" post was about two particular tone boards, that so happen to be bulking and distracting. From my point of view, that was shared by several others.

Some how to call makers appeared to think that it was thier calls that were being talked about, when it wasn't about them or any other call maker at the time, but about the tone board, Still Is think.  :wink:

Heres my final on those tone boards........I will not spend my money on a call that utilizes them, until a call maker finds a way to make them not distract from his handy work..........period. Thats me. I have no other issues with the smaller molded tone boards being used. If its presented right I'm on it, if its not I'm not.

Where my post sort of turned was another issue of preference by others, and I to agree with them. The new subject was the difference of hand made tone boards, molded tone boards, and the prefrences folks have.

A hand made tone board (Antler, Wood, etc), especially in the hands of a someone that knows what they are doing, is a premium, and if the fella is really good it will effect the sales and prices of his call from the start, and if he is still learning, and gets better.............his calls will be more sought after, and command a little higher price. (Krusty might be a good time to make a come back)  :wink:

Delrin, PVC(Basically any thing not molded) and other materials fall  in this above group, but might or might not bring the recognition or price of the more natural mediums.

Next is the "Molded" tone boards. These boards have a place in call making and they work and some work well. They are designed and sold for exactly what they are...........to assist new fellers that don't know how to do, and to the folks that don't want to do, but basically a quick means to an end. Most new call makers use them, some move on to doing thier own and better thing, some become great at using the molded stuff and making it look great, and a few just keep on sticking tone boards in wooden barrels and wonder why stuff doesn't sell as well, and eventually fall from the call making scene. Fellas with the internet, this is now the world of custom calls, and most folks are leaning that way, or lean that way as soon as they get started. (Could be a target group to grab by the horns)  :wink:

Aaron there is realy no difference at using a molded tone board or inserting a JC Reed in a call, except that the JC Reed is hidden, and the tone board either looks great thanks to the hands of the maker, or looks like a sore thumb. Basically its exposed, and they both are customs, it just depends ho much the maker wants to make it look custom.

Rich probably wouldn't have made the name he has for himself using molded tone baords, and the point I think Al is making is, that Rich is not buying a tone board made by another maker and using it in his new howler. He is designing it and having molded after his tone board, in essence his and his work alone. So its two differnt subjects totally....apples and oranges if ya will?

QuoteIts acceptable for someone to use molded tone boards as long as they design it and have someone else mold it for them.

Its acceptable for the call maker to use what ever he wants to use, its his call. Rich is not buying a tone board from WoodsWise putting it in his horn and selling the molded horn, and I don't think he'll be selling his molded howler as a custom call either. Another Apples oranges issue and kind a grasp.

Aaron your first intital post was almost like your were taking pride in proving somone wrong, more then debating the issue at hand. I'm in no way shape offended, effected by the debate, and nor do I take it out of context(Ie Fighting). I appreciate the fact that you ask these questions and debate them. In times past most call makers spoke these issues behind the scenes and never brought them to the front, and they stewed. Now they are coming out and getting debated.................groovy cool.  :congrats:

Rick,

Buddy I just can't praise ya enough about your call and how far ya have came, and I think you'll be around for a long time. I just think ya need a better PR/Media agent.  :wink:

QuoteOK THIS TALK IS HURTING LORENS BUSSINESS I WAS GOING TO ORDER 50 TONEBOARDS BUT IF I DO WILL I STAY BEING A LOWER CLASS CALLMAKER. THIS STUFF HAS GOT ME MIXED UP I'M GOING TO DROP MY PLASTICSPRINGHORN CALL. DONT FEEL RIGHT MAKING THEM AFTER ALL THE TALK SPARROWS THING WHAT YOUR SAYING ABOUT FELLOW CALLMAKERS. REASON I'M TALKING THIS WAY IS CALLMAKING ON A CERTAIN BOARD HAS CHANGED GREATLY. THERE IS COPYING' NO MORAL'S ANYMORE. IT IS JUST NUT'S. I CANT MAKE A GOOD CALL ANY MORE.NOT FOR THE MONEY EITHER.RIGHT NOW I FEEL LIKE IF I USE A MOLDED TONEBOARD I'M A SHIT CALLER.Rickt

I don't think anything is hurting Lorens business. If ya think something is, is please explain. Matter fact I think he is doing quite well. His deal is to make and sell tone boards to call makers, and its the call makers responsabilty is to take the raw product and make it look good with thier calls. You can choose to take the product and make it into a simple hunting grade call, or ya can take the product and make a nice custom call. Its up to the call maker.  :shrug:

I'm not sure what Aaron is saying about other call makers thats bad? I think your refering to PM going down the toilet?  :innocentwhistle: Your right it is nuts. You make great calls, the only person that seems to have issues with them is..............you?  :confused:  Your far from a Shit call maker Rick. Keep using molded tone boards. (Remember the initial post was about the bulky ones, and the transition to the call)

Quoteyour just saying us callmakers that use a molded toneboard isnt going any were.

I don't think thats what he said at all Rick. I think he was debating the molded tonebard as a whole because he uses them "And someone told him they weren't customs" Who said that crap?  :shck:

Quotevery good post. see i want to make toneboard and i'm going to soon. everyone has there call price's way down.i dont want to use my real good wood's. i had a great price on to killer tuned snakewood call's last week. everyone want's the cheap stuff. this is kinda sad to say but i use to buy alot of the other callmaker's call's. i dont any more. so i have a idea were todd and yo guy's are coming from. thing's have changed for the worse. sorry Sparrow's if i implied anything this call making stuff is messed up right now. Rick

Rick some have thier prices down and others to high.  :wink: How you feel about a new call maker that we know nothing about, pops up tomorrow with a basic, not so well finished call, is asking the same price as one of your calls. His call doesn't even measure up yet to yours but he thinks because you get that price he should too.  :wink:

The guys that want the cheap stuff arent really into the market for high end customs. Solution.............making a hunting grade line of calls from any where between $10 and $20, that works. Then make those higher end customs for the fellas that want them. Like me.  :biggrin:

Things haven't changed for the worse, matter fact just the opposite. With the new influx of call makers, the cream is is just rising to the top faster. Just more noticable now then two years ago. It boiles down to settling at the bootm or rising with that cream. I agree though Rick it is changing, but I think for the better.  :congrats:

Rick one last thing..........the molded calls you and KO are making, are a venture your taking together. If they are priced right and are good they will sell. They only down side is there are hundreds of productions to compete with, and you thought the customs were competative.  :shck:

What it boiles down to is were are all on the same side, and no one is picking on anyone. Its just ideas and opinions. What it comes to head..............is just what Al said. What do you as the call maker want?