Rainshadow since you make assumptions of me in a forum I can not respond to, let me do it here.
QuoteEric, I think the whole FnF thing was EXTREMELY uncalled for. Honestly. The originator was mad because he lost an opportunity, and it blew up from there. You do kinda have to walk on eggs in some ways because this is still small enough for reputations to be destroyed. But I think it was grossly wrong. Even if I agree with them, they have no right to tell a man what he can and can't do in a free market society. That's why we live in this country! It's just WRONG on a very deep level. They are WRONG, ethically and morally. Whether their thinking is wrong or right is a personal judgement. I think you know I don't mind. If you win one of my auctions, that's what the market would bear, I'm happy. If you buy one of my listings, that's what I priced it at, I'm happy. If you think there's margin after that, so be it. It's a free market.
Can't comment freely over there because it's the rule of the mob, everybody knows that. It's unfair, but it's how these forum things work. Just so you know, I think they were way out of line, in some very deep and serious ethical and moral ways. That you buy and resell calls is only the context, the agregious error is in bullying another man in a free country. SERIOUSLY wrong.
--------------------
- - Steve
RainShadow Game Calls
QuoteThe originator was mad because he lost an opportunity, and it blew up from there.
This is further from the truth and I think this reflects on your lack of experience with the most of the calling community. For the record I have all those calls, but if had a shot at it might have taken one, but thats not what initiated my post. What initiated it was is the accumilation of Erics actions overe time, and as I said for $5 more then what Eric paid for those ya can get them direct from Jay, so its not like they are shortage.
The rest in the middle of your post is your opinion and we here would respect ya more if ya just say it.
QuoteCan't comment freely over there because it's the rule of the mob, everybody knows that. It's unfair, but it's how these forum things work. Just so you know, I think they were way out of line, in some very deep and serious ethical and moral ways. That you buy and resell calls is only the context, the agregious error is in bullying another man in a free country. SERIOUSLY wrong.
You can comment freely here thats the nice thing. I might not like what ya have to say and you might not like what I say, but thats mutal respect thing thats allowed here ay FNF.
I think I'll let the rest of the mob voice there opinions, and thanks for being up front with me and appearantly the others.
I gotta agree.
I think your completely over reacting Rainshadow, on something that amounted to nothing more then 7 or 8 individuals voicing their opinions.
Based on your last few posts here and then what Todd has brought to light, you make it sound as though were threatening him, or sueing him, or asking him to close his shop, or god knows what else. There isn't nothing like that happening here :iroll: there never was, not now not ever. Simply voicing how we view it or what we think of it.
I particularly appreciate the "cant comment freely over there" comment. That's about as black as the kettle is going to get in the pots eyes. Everyone here voiced their comments freely, you included. But you didnt get the reaction or the support you wanted so you went and drug it into someones elses lap where you knew you'd get it.
I'm not reprimanding you, I'm voicing my comments freely. Just as I'll expect you to do with no reprecussional measures. And I'd most likely still buy a call from you if I saw one that tickled my fancy since I disagree with your opinion and not you as a person. Because that's the type of members this board has been made from and I take no credit for that.
QuoteCan't comment freely over there because it's the rule of the mob, everybody knows that. It's unfair, but it's how these forum things work. Just so you know, I think they were way out of line, in some very deep and serious ethical and moral ways. That you buy and resell calls is only the context, the agregious error is in bullying another man in a free country. SERIOUSLY wrong.
I can tell you this!
We here at FNF have went out of our way to make sure the members here could post freely! Always! And to say something like this really disturbs me and makes me wonder what you intentions here are? Maybe you could explain it to me Rain?
Brent
Quotethey have no right to tell a man what he can and can't do in a free market society
You need to stop frequenting boards run by Canadians.
Al
Quote from: Todd Rahm on July 19, 2007, 04:56:19 PMThis is further from the truth and I think this reflects on your lack of experience with the most of the calling community.
Todd plunged into a sea of platitudes, and with the powerful breast stroke of a channel swimmer, made his confident way towards the white cliffs of the obvious.....
Todd,
My comments to Eric concerning you were an assumption, based on the Rhino calls Rick posted, that he jumped on. You say there's more to it than that, so I apologize. That comment pointed my disagreement at you, instead of at the overall tone of the thread. In light of your comments here, that was wrong. I'm sorry, Todd. My feeling on the matter is rooted very deep, and hasn't changed, but I pointed my feeling at you, which wasn't right.
I'll try to explain where I'm coming from, and hopefully that will put things into a context where it makes more sense.
I've more or less bought low and sold high my whole life, since I was a child. I was raised to make my own way, and only punch a clock if times got hard. Work harder and smarter than the next guy, and you'll be the one who's still eating. I've run little businesses since I was pre-teen. My Family was self employed, and I've continued the tradition. Both full time, and a whole hat full of part time efforts. (Like right now for instance... I have a full time storefront business, and my wife and I have three or four other little ventures going at the same time.)
What I saw, my perception of that thread, was berating and brow beating a man for trying to take advantage of opportunities. Where I come from, seeing an opportunity and grabbing it is a good thing. Admirable. What you're supposed to do. How you make a living, pay your bills, and feed your family. To attack that (which was what I was hearing) I have to take very personal. You (the thread) weren't talking to me, but you (the thread) were unknowingly talking about me.
I'll allow that it's possible I spoke too soon out of ignorance, and that maybe 9th has at times said one thing and done another. I've just never seen it, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I appreciate it when someone gives me the benefit of the doubt. I try to use that as a guide.
As to buying from friends low and selling to strangers high, I do that. I tell them right up front that's what I'm doing. I buy theft and damage recovery vehicles, rebuild them, and resell them. Often, I have friends or acquaintences try to trade vehicles to me for stuff I've got for sale. Friend or total stranger, I tell them immediately, "You'll make more money selling it yourself. I'm only going to give you about half of what I think I can get for it." That's my schpiel. The first sentence out of my mouth. Every single time. People appreciate that, they're not used to it from someone selling cars. If they just want to bail on the car, then they give it to me. If not, they get an ad in the paper. Nobody gets worked up about it. If I get it, I make money they could have made if they had been more patient. That's how it works in my life.
I heard that thread saying that since it was game calls, that wasn't ok. :confused:
My comment about "over there" was in that thread. Things were rolling along there. I think you can understand that.
Hope that kinda explains my passion in coming to a fellow entreprenur's defense. If there's more to it, factors, or stories that I just don't know about, then I was out of line. But I haven't seen or heard them yet. Eric seems a good guy.
Jim, You run a good forum. I was talking about the thread. I saw folks ganging up. I thought "mob" was an appropriate description of how that thread was going. Hope you can stand in my shoes and understand what I was saying.
Brent, I've spent time on FnF for the same reason I've initially spent time on any of the other forums. I love to hunt. I love to talk about hunting. I love to read hunting stories and see hunting pictures. Do I need, "...intentions?" Not sure what you're driving at there.
Al, Nice to talk to you again. I'll get you to write back to me one way or the other! :roflmao: (Canada is a free market society too, I think.) I still appreciate you and your guidance.
Let me know if you have any more concerns.
- - Steve
QuoteAl, Nice to talk to you again. I'll get you to write back to me one way or the other
I'm not sure what's so funny here, nor do I know what you are talking about. However, I will hazard a guess.
When you first started making calls, oh, 10 or 11 months ago at most, you would write me a couple times a week. sometimes more. I think I answered all of your questions as best I could, but perhaps I missed one.
After you became a call maker on PM though, I never heard from you again. Except for one small order you placed a month ago.
I do know, that you went to great lengths to find out how I made my decorative brass bands, but you never asked me. The sad part is, I would have told you, as it was no secret. I posted that information on this board, told eveyone exactly what I used and how I did it. Guess you missed that post eh?
So, if you have something to ask me or say to me, my e mail is no secret. Unlike your buddy Tebbe who only knows two kinds of call makers, those he has screwed, and those he is going to screw, I have helped every call maker that has aked me. You insinuating that I ignored you is rather rude.
Al
I must have missed that post on the bands.....................my dumb luck
You must have, because I put it up.
Here is the post http://www.finsandfur.net/forums/index.php?topic=1581.0
If you go to page two, you will see that Lonehowl asked me how they were made. And I explained it. As I always do.
But, after I found out that our buddy Rainshadow was asking around, I edited that information out, as you will see in the post.
When you asked me, I told you I was not ready to give that information up.
There comes a point Brian, where you get tired of being screwed by people. I see a lot of this with the really experienced turkey call guys and some of the duck call guys. And while it used to bother me somewhat, I understand where they are coming from now. So for now, there are some things that I am going to have to start keeping to myself.
If that offends you, I apologize. But you have already proved you are able to work things out for yourself and that you are very creative, so if you want to, you can figure this out too.
I certainly don't see Tebbe posting a tutorial on molding plastic - and i am sure a lot of guys would like to know that tool.
When the lanyard tutorial on PM was taken down, the asked the people there who made lanyards if one of them would post a new one -as of today, the only one I am aware of on the entire internet is the one here and the one on my web site - both posted by me.
So if you think bad of me for not giving this bit of information up, again, I apologize.
Al
Al
I really don't blame ya for that. And as for offending me.............well it takes alot to do that. You were not even close. I'll finger it out one day when I have the time. Right now I have some calls to make.
Bryan
Al,
I still appreciate you and your guidance.
I commented on the bands because I liked them. I thought they were super. I wondered how you did it. I assumed it was a Sorby stippling tool, which I couldn't afford, so I made one.
- - Steve
Rainshadow --
One last point on this topic -
Less than a year ago, Joey Gatnic of Purgatory Predator Calls found out that eiter his first or one of his first calls was in Ninethinnings E bay store. He posted about it on PM. There was a pretty big debate about it.
I jsut did a search and went through every post from the day Joey became a call maker.
It appears PM pulled the post because it is no longer there.
That's the real MOB mentaility - the mob over there can only say what they want them to say. No matter where the say it or even if it is in Private E mail or on another board
Al
Nope, not the sorby tool. You would ruin the cutters on the tool if you used it for that, and they have to be sharpened by hand. Like any tool, you can only sharpen them so many times, and at 35 bucks each for replacement cutters, it would not be worth it.
If you could not afford the 170 bucks for the sorby tool, you'llhave a hard tine swallowing the 400 to 1000 bucks for the air drill power carver and bits, compressor and other things to make the bands. You'll also need a chuck, two hacksaws, one iwth 18 teath per inch and one with 24 to 32 teath per inch. Some sanding cord, a belt sander, and lots of time and paitence and a bull nose live center is a big help too.
Happy now ? You have all you need to know to get started.
That's it for me. I've helped you guys all I will.
Like Brain said, I have calls to turn
Al
QuoteBrent, I've spent time on FnF for the same reason I've initially spent time on any of the other forums. I love to hunt. I love to talk about hunting. I love to read hunting stories and see hunting pictures. Do I need, "...intentions?" Not sure what you're driving at there.
I am not driving at anything Rain. Just asked you a question. If you intentions are to talk calls, hunting, post storeys and such we wont have no problems. But if you intentions are to take threads that are started here to a place that these guys can not defend them selves and talk about them, then we have a problem.
Just like Jim said, this is not your ordinary board. You will not have a thread deleted here or edited unless you really cross the line. I been here sense the place was started and have never deleted or edited a post! So, if you got something to say, then just say it here. Don't take it some were else and do it. These guys are all grown men and have proved they can handle them selves just fine in a polite and Seville debate on a open forum. We have no problems here at all. You wont see the pissing match threads here that you see over there!
And to be honest, I didn't like the comments that you used in your post over there, they just didn't set right with me. Mob? Were did that come from.
I understand you were up set and took that thread diff rent than the rest of us did. No big deal but you should of said it here not some were else.
Brent
Brent,
I appreciate your position and your thoughts. I said it to Eric, by way of encouragement and support. It happened to be there. Where wasn't even a thought at the time, it was who. I can't PM here. I saw him in that thread, I tried to throw him some encouragement.
Al, I've been checkering, stippling, and texturing brass bands with a carbide dremel cutting bit greased in a piece of delrin. Pretty good results for about 14 bucks. I'm tapering and grooving with tiny scrapers I made from broken drill bit shafts. Not as nice as yours, but I get by.
-- Steve
Rain,
I thank you for your apology, and I also apologize if my comments about Ninth offended ya, as that was not my intentions at all.
The bottom line here, is everyone speaks their honest piece of mind. It doesn't have to be nice, it doesn't have to be politically correct, it just has to be honest and from the heart.
You can always disagree with me, make statements about me in a public forum, and ya can always speak your piece and stand your ground. I, and many others will respect ya more for it.
I have been doing this for several years, and have seen call makers come and call makers go, but it seems to be the honest and ethical folks that make up the majority of the hobby family so to speak. We don't all like each other and we don't all share the same ideas, but we are strong both ethically and morally.
I periodically cross the lines and you along with others will check me and speak your opinions, and I won't think any less of ya. As long as your stance is the same no matter where ya hang your posting hat, and that's the case with most folks here. You'll hear bad things about most of as and you'll hear good things about us, but one look at the caliber of folks we run with, and you'll know exactly what and who you'll get.
This will be my last and final statement about Ninth and the whole situation.
QuoteI have a game call collection I am proud of and show it off by way of my Ebay store.
Just how stupid does he think we, and mostly you guys that have access to this particular forum are? Uh, maybe if I tell them its just my way of showing my collection.......they'll bite on it? I just happened to notice his call collection pictures have prices right next to them.......................and.................HELLO...........they are in a store.
Just be careful, and don't be blinded by passiveness.
Thanks again for replying.
Thanks Todd.
Some of us make our living capitalizing (sometimes quickly) on opportunities we see. (I'll be out at the garage sales in the morning doing just that, looking for cars, and e-bay fodder! Another of my sidelines!) I think you can and do appreciate that. Thanks for your candor, it's always best. I'm learning.
I don't agree with saying one thing and doing another in any context in life, ever.
- - Steve
Al I don't know if you need this but I feel I need to say something on your behalf
Al has been helping me for awhile now just because he don't reply right away to a message don't mean he doesn't read it I may send 2 messages to Al and get 1 response but the response covers both messages Hell he has even taken time out of his busy day and called me.Sure we shot the bull a little but most of the conversation covered call building and answering my questions,and giving tips.
the way I see this whole deal with buying something and selling it at a higher price is practiced every day. the mark up rate on allmost everything you see in a store is atleast 100% if not more. I do know that these electronic calls that people buy are very high priced but because of the number of them being sold the prices cannot come down. (by the way I do have a 700 dollar foxpro) one thing you do not see however is if somebody makes me a custom knife or gun I do not take that same gun and sell it for twice of what i just payed for it. and like todd has said I do not think anyone that might know the callmaker would buy something at a price higher then what you can buy directly from him. this is just human nature at its best. everyone wants a high priced thing lower. so in a way I see rainshadow's point but if he wants to sell custom calls for more then they are selling for from the call spinner start selling commercial calls.
al I for one appreciate the laynard tutorials and still kinda makes me mad about some of the mods making you look like the bad guy and then locking the thread
Todd,
My Ebay store has one of the best inventories of calls on the internet. I am very proud of the success of my game call business and it turns a pretty good profit. The American Free Enterprise System is what allows me to do this. I am free to buy and sell. Where else can a person go and buy a call made by the best call makers in America in one spot. You point out that my Rhino calls are over priced. I don't buy that argument. Many of the calls in my inventory are one of a kind creations. You said my Cronk calls are over priced. Not at all. They are spectacular one of a kind pieces.
I have polled the call makers and there are three that do not want me to buy there calls and resell them on Ebay. Other call makers have said they are happy with me buying and reselling their calls. I pulled the calls out of my store inventory from call makers that didn't want them there. In the future I will buy calls from makers who want my business and will not buy calls from those that do not want my business. There are alot of call makers today, alot of choices. Fierce competition is good, it pushes the call makers to do better and gives the hunter choices. I buy from call makers I feel will be here over the long haul and who's calls will increase in value over time.
You have been saying for a very long time now I copy others calls yet you have NEVER showed a single example. My Ebay store is also full of my calls. Go there and pull some pictures of the calls you are talking about and then come up with a picture of the call I copied from. Post them side by side and we can discuss it.
You mentioned my calls are not that good. How can you know this? I put my heart soul and alot of effort into my calls. They are original designs and I have spent a great deal of time working out the fine details of my designs. From day one my calls have called and killed predators. Each call I make is better than the one that came before it. You expressed your doubt that my writings have influenced others. Call makers have said they have learned from my posts. Posts written with the purpose of showing others how I do things so that they may benefit from my knowledge.
I am proud of my store, I am proud of all the fine calls in my inventory, I am proud of the calls I make. Am I in it for the money? Yes. Do I love to make game calls? Yes, with a passion.
My worry is that young call makers will read opinions written by mature call makers that condemn profits. They read that they should be making calls and selling at cost to support someones hunting hobby. I sell my calls for a price that is good for me and I encourage other call makers to sell their calls at prices that will benefit them.
Eric
Making calls used to be a craft, a hobby.
Now, it's a business.
Problem is, some call makers want it both ways as long it it suits them.
On the one hand, they want to sell the calls at a good proffit and run a business
On the other, they want everyone to share what they know with them, and even EXPECT it because it's still a craft and a hobby.
I'll wager that the same guys who don't mind seeing Eric buy their calls and resell them at huge profits are the same guys who wont hesitate to pick your pocket for all you know about making calls so they can sell THEIR calls for even more, and when you don't want to give up something, give you attitude and snide remarks about it. Then proceed to tell everyone what a prick you are because you kept something to yourself.
Now aiint that the shits?
Some of the comments in this tread have really pissed me off. I think it is time to go spin some calls.
Al -
Ninth I spent 30 minutes typing a reply.........some you might not like........and some ya might........but any rate it will have to wait till later for me to re type it.
But, one thing is for sure a lot of folks aren't being honest with ya about your business, your calls, or selling ya calls, and if they are ...............well then they aint being honest with me and a few others.
:doh2: Oops forgot to mention the first reply vanished when I hit enter.
There are a certain few makers that go out of their way to help anyone that asks. And we all know who these guys are. If not for this type of people that are willing to give info so freely, how do we learn the process so fast without wasting alot of time & money?
It's sad to think that these people are also being picked apart every time you turn around. And for what? Being honest? Sharing?
Al has info posted on every site I have been to and if not for him, how many would still be trying to figure something out??? He goes into details and when asked a question gives an answer. It may not be what your wanting to hear, but I am willing to bet it's the truth.
For us being a mob....Rain, you really need to look at the whole picture and dig a little deeper into this forum. As already said, we voice our opinions in the way we want and don't have to worry about someone editing them, deleting them or pissing everyone off, as we know up front, it's how things are and everyone has their own opinion. For an example...Take a look at the older posts in the call section and see what is said when someone asks about a call. It's not all glitter and gold talk telling them something just to say it. They are told the opinion of what that person thinks and then it's up to them on how they use that info. If they use that info.
That's some of the reason I call this place home. Everyone is honest and everyone helps when a question is asked. And if by chance someone doesn't like something, they will tell you up front. Ask sunshine what I think about him :wink:
For the thing on the calls, that's Eric's choice. We all know that. The rest of the people that replied in the post were giving their opinion on what they think and saw. And it was done because we are human and have those different thoughts on how things should be done in such a small sport we all love.
Well I really don't have a horse in this race other than the fact that I am a proud member of this so called 'mob' but,.......I think that you two ( Rain and 9th ) are like two egg suckin pups.You are so insecure about your abilities that your always yappin' around the Big dogs trying to get noticed,both of you have made some snide remarks then tried to cover your butts.
There are people on this board that acually care about something other than money and are not afraid to show it and don't rely on the 'buddy' method to made them feel good. You both have said and done things that people did'nt agree with and you got called on it,now,be men and live with the fact not everybody agrees with your methods, if ya can't than your in the wrong place.
So, if a fellow buys a call from someone and pays their asking price and the said calls then becomes his property which he decides to turn around and sell for "3 times" what he paid for it, that's a business and unethical? But if a fellow buys a bulk pack of reeds, or pieces of wood or sticks of acrylic rod which then becomes his property and he turns around and sells those to other people for 3 times what he paid for them, that's a craft? I don't see the difference. Of course, I'm not a smart guy as evidenced by making such a post.
Seeing how its your 1st post here it's pretty obvious on where ya came from to reply.
But do you have an opinion on what I had to say or are you just going to dis me for where I came from? Didn't you come from there, too? Until you got kicked off I mean.
I see your point on the calls and if you read above you see where I said it's Eric's choice.
And for me being here, I was here long before the redfag banned me over there. Why did you come? Stirring or because it's a better site.
Quote from: awh on July 20, 2007, 01:50:36 PM
Why did you come? Stirring or because it's a better site.
This IS a better site..... however, I'd wager it was simply to stir the turds.....
I've been here for awhile just haven't had a reason to post. I thought I had some pertinent comments to make, so I did. Eric has one of my calls on EBay. I didn't know he was selling them there when I sold it to him, but even had I known I would have sold it because he paid the price I was asking. If he can sell it for a higher price good for him, I say. I made what I needed to and if he does the same, it's all good....to me at least.
I certainly don't try to "stir things up". There's plenty of that without my involvement. On the contrary, I try to post things that might allow people to see a clouded issue from a different perspective. It's my experience, though, that people will be as they are. It definitely makes the world more interesting.
In my studies of human behavior I ran across a model called the Johari's Window. Without getting into great detail a basic premise is how we see ourselves is not always the same as how other people see us. So, often in conflicts we tend to take the holier than thow perspective and criticize a person for something that, in essence, we're just as guilty of. It's an easy mistake to make. That was the intent of my post. I did not intend to aggravate or agitate anyone. But, I also knew that intentions and outcomes aren't always the same and someone would likely take offense. Honestly, I didn't think it would matter if it was my first post or my hundred and first. It, to me, was still pertinent.
Can, I take this as my welcome aboard?
FOs,
How much would you wager? This site is touted as a place to speak your mind, but yet when you do you're "stirring the turds"? Big assumption on your part.
I don't think we need to pounce on the guy after his first post, especially since he closed it with the sentence that he did.
I think we all got our blood pressure up over the debate involved with the actual thread.
Welcome aboard Mason_Jar, giving you the benefit of the doubt here I think you picked the wrong topic to introduce yourself in.
If you really did stop in to stake a claim in the debate, you may find that your a little over your head this late into it.
First, you are correct. We should have welcomed you.
WELCOME TO FNF Mason Jarr. :highclap: Glad to have you and hope you stick around for more than this topic.
I was not bashing Eric. If it came across as that then I need to change it. Eric has the right to do as he wants with the items he buys. I think we all agree on that. But to some people it's more than the money, it's the way we are brought up, the way we think. Hell, I like Eric. He's never did me wrong. But if I have an opnion I'm going to voice it just as I hope everyone would do the same.
As for my opnion on why you decided to post now, it just seems funny that PM guys hit certain subjects and are not heard of again till the next hot topic is brought up. See what I'm saying here???
Thanks for the welcome. I've been reading it all along and I read the other post as well. I'm tracking! I might not fall in line with the popular opinion, but that's OK. I appreciate their perspectives as I hope they will mine.
He asked a valid question, and he deserves a fair answer, since it was directed at me I think.
We all know that most retailers buy in bulk and then sell for a profit.
I do the same thing. I am pretty up front about it. Most guys who visit my store, and then shop around, come back to my srtore unless they have an axe to grind.
Here's why
My acrylic rod is 18.95 a foot. The only other place on line you can buy acrylic rod by the foot sells it for 32 bucks a foot.
And I just found a new distributor that I can get it from for about 5 bucks cheaper, which means, when I update the site this weekend, my price per foot will come down a buck. They will still be selling it for 32.
My bulk JC reeds are a bit less than anyplace else, but if you only need 5 or 10, no problem. You dont have to buy 25 at a time.
My game call reeds, deer, duck, owl, are all about 25% less than any online dealer. Please check for youirself.
My wood, is all hand picked at the distributors by me. Each blank. I do not buy it in bulk. I go, I pick the best stuff I can get, and if I wouldn't turn it, I wont buy it. And I sell it for about 25% less than anyone on line.
My brass and other metal bands are the same. About 25% to 50% less than anyplace else, and I am the ONLY place on line you can get copper and aluminum.
My decorative bands sell for 5 bucks. I know a place you can get different ones. They go for anywhere from 15 to 25 each.
Most guys know that if they are board members, call makers here or even on PM, if they contact me directly, I give a 10 to 15% discount too.
Now, do I make some money off this? Yes I do. It is after all, a business. The people who sell to me know that I am going to resell thier products too. Nothing shady about it.
If eric wants to buy calls from other call makers and resell them, that is his business. Just like the manufacturer who told me he only sold to distributors though, I do not have to sell to Eric.
Howevere, there is somethig else here - something some of you may have missed.
When asked if predator calls were under priced, Eric first replied that he thought they were priced just right.
Now how can that be "right" if he buys them and then doubles the price in his E bay store?
Should not his answer have been, "Predator calls are WAY under priced, and I will buy them all and sell them for what I think they are worth because of it."
But just like me, he doesn't want to pay more for anything. I want to pass the savings on to my customers, while Eric wants to make a profit. Think about that one for a minute. If he buys a call for 25 and sells it for 75, that's not a bad deal. But if he has to buy it for 50 to resell it for 75, the deal is not so sweet. So the problem here is what Eric said when he replied.
On one hand, Mason, you are right. Both, in some respects are businesses. Both try to make a profit. It's a valid point.
On the other hand, as a "distributor" of my calls, I have the right to not sell them to him, just as any distributor has the right to not sell his products directly to me.
We have the right on this board to debate this. As I said in an earlier post, this topic was brought up om PM less than a year ago, concerning the same thing.
PM however, pulled the thread.
Welcome to FnF - and I hope I have shed some light on my position for you.
Al
awh,
I do see what you're saying and I can understand why my post on this particular topic could seem like I have ulterior motives. I don't. Just had an opinion this time. I bounce between both sites and others as well. I read (hear) more that I write (say). Dad said that was the way its done with two ears and one mouth.
I'm a good guy. I know you don't know that, but I'll tell you. With 29 years and counting in the military I tend to say what I want to. I also defend your right to do that. I certainly know we won't always agree. I'd still buy you a beer though.
I apologize for my attitude concerning your 1st post. That's not who I am.....all of the time. :innocentwhistle: :roflmao: (I need Bops sensitivity training 101 class)
And you may have just found a friend for life w/ that beer offer. :biggrin: I likes a cold beer or tweleve :eyebrow:.
Quote from: Mason_Jarr on July 20, 2007, 02:11:02 PM
FOs,
How much would you wager? This site is touted as a place to speak your mind, but yet when you do you're "stirring the turds"? Big assumption on your part.
Not at all, unlike the other board, you can "stir the turds". Stick around. After some time in the community you'll begin to see and understand there IS a difference.
Welcome to FnF.
Problem was, no one welcomed him when he came in, so he didn't get his stick. Not his fault. We'll gt him one asap :roflmao:
AL
Stick...Hell o. All I got was the elusive merit badge.....
Al,
Honestly, I was talking about you. But, I wasn't faulting you for turning a profit. I also don't fault Eric. As I said, as long as he paid me what I wanted for my call I didn't care that he was going to resell it. I was a litte disappointed that he offered it for sale because as a fairly new call maker I was pretty stoked when another maker bought one of my calls. I thought that meant I was doing well enough to impress him. I'm still OK with it though.
Since we're just meeting, I've been to your site many times. I think you're one of the most influential call makers around and I admire your willingness to share information. I don't always understand why you get upset when people copy that shared information. Isn't that why you put it out there?
I'll stick around here, but I mean it when I say I read more that I write. I promise I'm not here to cause trouble though.
Mike
Heck...I'll play a bit in this fun summer game :biggrin:
I think the thread [kinda got to combine this with a couple other threads to get the whole game] has a couple of worthy points and a whole bunch of bouncing off walls which seem aimed at baiting, peeing on shoes, and chest pounding.
It's quite entertaining and even a bit educational and informative.
The message I take away is not what folks do or don't do with the freedoms of business or speech that they are blessed to have, but how they do them. 9th has a right to his website and what he does with things that folks agree to sell him. Maybe he did or didn't do a good job upfront at being clear on his intentions. Sounds like in a few instances the folks he got stuff from didn't clearly understand that he collects calls for the purpose of reselling them and maybe they would not have sold them to him or sold them to him at the price they did had they clearly understood.
I know that car dealers around here sometimes run 'clear the lot' specials and often make the statement 'no dealers please'. I'm not really sure why.
I would think that folks intending to resell would want to maintain good, positive relationships with their suppliers and I also think that suppliers need to be a bit discerning about the prospective buyers if they care about what happens to the call they sell and they base their pricing on that assumption.
I think the point of all these posts is not about the right to free enterprise. It's about clear communication and mutual respect for the intention that each has in the hobby/craft/business. I also think that if you choose to participate in a true freedom of speech board that you need to acknowledge that folks will say things and in ways that might be different in what you think or how you would say them....... as long as they ain't talkin about your mama you kinda need to take that in stride.... unless your intent is to squable, stir, or what ever else ya want to call it. In the latter case you'll generally find a buddy who is more than happy to squable back and it is a bit entertaining for those just watching, though sometimes it's more silly than anything else....... The good news is that those options are pretty open to ya and how ya want to participate and be viewed when your playing on an uncensored board. :wink:
Very well said, Stu.
Sometimes when the topic is one that is deeply held by the reader, his responses can have a little fire in them. At times that passion can turn personal. It happens, it shouldn't. A person of character will back up after he cools down a bit and repair the damage.
Dealerships that have deep discounted sales exclude other dealers because they're usually hoping to finance the cars. They make tons on the intrest. (I don't carry paper, for a bucketful of reasons. But I know what they do. Talk about unethical!)
Mason_Jarr,
First off, welcome to Fins and Fur. I hope that you will enjoy it here as much as I do.
Just my view, but I think everyone looks at each thing a little differently than the next. By that, just think back to the old story of the blind men describing the elephant; it is huge, it is like the trunk of a tree, it is round like a snake, etc. What will trip my trigger might not bother you and what might trip your trigger might not bother me. I have expressed my thoughts on ninth selling calls in another post. I do appreciate that ninth posted that he is reselling the calls that he buys in The Work Shop on Predator Masters and that if someone didn't want him reselling them that he would not buy them. To me, that is the correct way to handle it.
While I don't sell reeds, I do buy them in bulk. I also buy the wood and anything else that I need to make a call. And when the call is done I sell it for more that the parts cost that were used to build that one call. I have no idea, nor do I want to even think about, the total cost of the tools that I have, the electricity to run them, wood, parts, the time involved, etc. (It would be scary and might convince me that I should be doing something else.) Nor do I know the total cost of the components used to make calls that I have not sold, but given away. I enjoy making calls, spending time on the lathe, and even more hearing from people that have either bought or been given one of my calls. Do I resent the fact that JC Products are selling me their reeds for more than it costs them to make them? No, but they also know up front why I am buying them and I know that if they don't make a profit they will not be making more reeds. If I know upfront that you are a reseller, I might or I might not do business with you. Heck, I am taking wine bottle stoppers to a winery next week. BUT I know that they are going to be reselling them. If they implied that they wanted 20 stoppers for their collection I would start to wonder. And if I went in the next time I was around and they had marked them higher and had them for sale, I would know that I was not getting all the story. Do I care that people mark things higher than their cost when they sell them? No. As I told one person, "I feel fortunate to have grown up in a time and was instilled with the belief that "profit" was not a bad word, but "excessive profit" was." I just want people to be honest and upfront with me.
Again, welcome to Fins and Fur,
Jerry
I think some ideas are being lost here guys. Most of you know, and some don't, this site is not all about big profits. People here give freely. Information, goods, you name it. Some people see what you are doing Rainshadow, as bad because of this reason. I personally don't disagree with them because of that fact. I do not disagree with what you are doing, just that you are doing it here.
Just my opinion.......by the way.......welcome Mason Jar.
Ninthinning stated:
QuoteI have polled the call makers and there are three that do not want me to buy there calls and resell them on Ebay.
Ninth, with all due respect, and with no offense intended (and even though I wasn't one of those polled) ......Please make it four.
Ok...where's my Windex
:doh2: feels like bailing a leaky boat. :puke:
Which Call Makers were polled :shrug: :wo:
Just for the sake of whatever you wish to call it, I'm going to tell a story. :sneer:
Now keep in mind this story is true.
Almost 20 years ago, a friend of mine and I use to go shoot pistols together. We did a lot of shooting and he had a pistol that I admired quite a bit. I always told him that if he ever decided to sell that pistol to give me first shot at it and he agreed to do so. A few years passed and a lot of outings, when he decided he had fallen in love and got married. He called me and told me that he was going to sell that pistol to help get started with his new wife. He priced it, but then said, "Since you are my best friend, I'll sell it to you for less". He sold me that pistol far cheaper than what he could have gotten for it, but both of us were happy.
Time passed and we saw less and less of each other due to having our own families, work, etc., but we did stay in touch.
Then almost six years ago I had my second child and needed a little cash for whatever reason. I priced that pistol to a fella for far more than what I gave for it and he bought it. I hated parting with it, but just brushed it off as needing the money for my baby. Deep down in my soul I always felt like I had betrayed my friend though since he could have made more money than he did off of it and he had been needing the money himself at the time. I hadn't even called him to give him a shot back at the gun. I just felt like a trust had been violated.
When we would see each other we always had a good time and then one day a couple years ago, he asked if I still had that pistol, because he would like to buy it back. I told him I had sold it. I'll never forget the look on his face.......ever. Now I really did feel horrible, so I started looking for that gun so that I could buy it back and then sell it back to him for what he had sold it to me.
I never got the chance. My friend died in September of stomach cancer.
A few months ago a guy at work came to me and asked if I wanted to buy a pistol. I asked what kind and he told me. It sounded like the same pistol, so we went to his truck and there it was...........I would have taken out a loan to get this gun back. I bought it and took it to my friends dad and gave it to him. We both wept and talked for awhile.
My priorities have never been more set than they are now. Not because I was taught it (even though I was), but it was because I lived it.
I hope that somehow my friend knows I made things right. :wink:
Cool deal there Bop!! :congrats: :congrats:
Carnsarnit Bop, Ya got me a little choked up there. :sad3:
VV you break me up :laf: :laf: :eyebrownod: :yahoo:cc