Call critique section

[Bopeye]

I read what you put Ladobe and agree wholeheartedly that a call can't get the critique from a picture that it can from actual "in hand" or "field tested". However, I do think it would be a very good tool to help a beginning call maker out on the obvious flaws in a call or maybe not even flaws, just "bad looks". At best, even from "in hand", all your gonna get is the opinion of that person. Who's to say they don't suck at blowing a call or really don't have an eye for what it takes to make a quality call?
Take me for instance, I still dislike an open reed call, because I can't get consistant results with them. Is that the calls fault or mine? My guess is that it's me. I can hand that same call to Coyotehunter1 and he can make them sing. So my opinion is close to worthless on the function of an open reed, but I sure know craftmanship or let's say artistic ability when I see it.
My dad has been carving all kinds of things from wood for well over 50 years. He's made monkeys out of peach seeds, coon hounds that look like they could bite you, fish that look good enough to eat, lures that are too beautiful to use, etc, etc. etc. I have watched him in his shop make some beautiful things and he has tried to pass his art down to me, but I just didn't take to it. Maybe it was a lack of desire or ability.......or both. Anyway, it's a shame that he has two sons and is in his 60's now and neither one of us picked up the torch from him. His "art" is gonna go when he does.  Maybe he'll stay with us long enough for my son to pick up the torch...

I know this much. If I were to get into call making (which I'm not going to), I would go to a site like THO provides or Fins and Fur and learn all I could. Then I would spin a couple or so and post pictures of my calls and ask what folks thought. I've been around here long enough to seperate the wheat from the chaff, so I would have an idea whom to listen to or not. Then I would probably send a few calls to a few different guys on here that really can bring out the best or worse in a call, and listen to their opinions.

Now I know there are several ways of improving your call making, I'm just saying that's how I would do it.

No need to worry about that though. Remember that instrument of beauty that Jimbo made? His looks like a crowning jewel compared to what I would make........

[rjl54]

  I've seen on other forums a "Rate this thread" feature. I'm not sure how it worked and I can't remember seeing a rating.  How hard would it be to have a feature where a guy could post a reply, not make any comments, but leave a rateing on the thread (call)?

  I understand concerns about a "train wreck" and it's something that would have to be watched.
There's talant on this forum who could offer suggestions to us who want to learn, those of us with thick enough skin to take a spankin and keep turning.  Think about it (I'm talking to us wanna-be's here) as though you had a chance to apprentice with one or several of the great callmakers.  Do you think if you was working in his shop and turned out a substandard  piece he'd pat you on the head and tell you "good work".  I hope not. 

I think it would be worth a try.  But I defer to those with more time on this forum, you know best how the cookie will crumble.

[FinsnFur]

VERY good  point Ladobe  It'll be impossible to give a true assessment through internet photography. That's why if we put it up, your moderating it  .......ahhhhhhhhm just giving ya a hard time 

I think the type of evaluations a lot of new makers are asking for is based on overall appearance and design. In which case, some type of anonymous system would benefit.

I can honestly say that I've never seen a thread from a call maker asking how to tone a reed because they cant get it to sound like they want it. Or a post asking for feedback on a sound from a hand call. Not saying they dont exist...but they are pretty far and few between especially when compared to the "hey look at this" threads.
Now that makes it sound like I'm implying that call makers dont give a rats arse what they sound like as long as they look good....and please dont take it that way. It's not what I was trying to get across at all.
I'm just reiterating that most feedback sought out on the forums is for design and appearance anyway.



rjl54, the type of rating system you've seen allows users to rate the value of a thread. They vote with a thumbs up theory. One star, two stars, etc.
The software averages the votes out and shows an overall ranking out in the list of threads in that particular forum...FOR that thread.
But my opinion on that is all it does is draw attention to a thread in a hugely populated list. Not much of a assessing system. 

[keekee]

I think you could use a thread to vote on the over all shape or design of a call, but thats about all. You haft to have the call in your hand to be able to judge the finish, feel, sound, craftsmanship (somethings you cant see in a pic).

When I started I done just what Larry said. I sent calls out to people I new could test the call and give me feedback to make me a better call maker.

I still do that, before I release a new call or new design I send them to good solid Predator callers that I know will put them threw the ringer. One good example is Rich Higgins, I send him a call every time a come out with a new call, he tests the call for me in front of coyotes and I go from there. ( And I know he will tell me like it is and I respect that).


Brent

[nailbender]

   Maybe what is needed is a panel of judges.  A call could be submitted and then make the rounds so each gets it in hand.  A small fee to cover the shipping. If you wanted a true trial by fire that would be it. Submitting a call for reveiw would not be for the faint of heart as resulting opinions would be posted, good or bad.

[coyotehunter_1]

A few simple guide lines can be incorporated.  We are (mostly ) adults here. I feel as long as those posting their calls are open minded to friendly suggestions (and understand everyone has an opinion) then there will be very few train wrecks.
If persistant problems should arise,  the offenders could be contacted (by private message) and a warning issued.   
It should also be understood, from the start, that any problem post(s) or the entire thread/forum, for that matter, can be deleted at any time.

Uh, PM flashy backs.............flashy backs...........We are adults and no exactly what ya can do.............no need to slap us like that.

Todd, 
No insults intended.... 

[BigB]

I think that the need for some sort of evaluation system is needed based on all of the recent posts for feedback.  I think that there could be two levels of evaluation.  1st level is a pic of the shape, and then get feedback from it.  This could utilize an online forum evaluation system.  Then the next level, if the person so choses, could be an "in hand" evaluation to inspect the details of the call and the sound quality.

I think that the people posting pics are wanting feedback on the shape/lines/proportions of their calls.  I agree with Ladobe in that a true evaluation can't be completed without an in person inspection.  But this is where we play the chicken vs the egg game.  A really good sounding call may look like arse, but it won't sell.  And there could be a really good looking call that may sound like arse, but sells good because of the shape/materials.  There is a bunch of calls selling right now because of sight and not sound.  Where do the new guys start, with the looks or the sound? 

It almost sounds like we are starting an online version for an apprenticeship for call making.  That would be really cool.

I am not sure if the results from in hand inspection should be published for everyone to see IMO.  This could ruin some people from the start.  Nobody learning the call making art is perfect right out of the box.  That is why we are looking for feedback to get better.  I would pay a fee to get my calls for some "in hand" inspection from some call makers, because I value their opinion, and the feedback on how to make my calls better is money well spent.

I believe a lot of us call builders are wanting to put in the time to become a call maker.  The call builders of today will be the call makers of tomorrow if we do this right.  Then they will be be providing the feedback to the call builders in the next generation.  Keep the torch alive.

[Lonehowl]

Excellent opinions from all. I'm not sure if it's really necessary at all at this point. If everyones in agreement that constructive/brutal honesty is the key, then , thats it. The way. Keep it in the hand calls forum.

I agree actual "in yer hands" assessment is the ultimate test of sound/fit/finish/performance. I also am of the opinion though, that 95% if not more calls are sold on looks alone, or we would not have callmakers building lightboxes and upgrading their digital cameras when they start selling calls.
(selling is the goal or theme Im basing all this on)


So, if a guy is wanting feedback on shape, proportion, construction techniques or whatever,then that goal needs to be posted with the call possibly.

If he wants a" sound check" then he needs to let that be known and post a sound file( if he can).

Or both.
Still thinking...

[Ladobe]

Looks like this thread is going someplace with lots of good points and opinions being made.   

If a spinner only wants an appraisal of the pattern of a given call he has spun, then sure, getting opinions from the general public from just a picture could be helpful to the spinner.    And that alone should not create any train wreck problems.   But I'd suggest the opinions be for the pattern (shape), material combinations used and any added features ONLY though.   Exceptional wood or other materials can give a call high eye candy appeal in a photograph whether the pattern is a good one or not, and may sway opinions.

It's my opinion that for a spinner to even begin to gain credibility for his calls, they need to settle on a pattern or two with functional proportions that will eventually be recognized as "their" signature calls, then go to work on constantly improving these calls from there.   I have experimented with literally hundreds of patterns and combinations over my 5 decades plus of building calls, but settled on my modified Weems patterns as my signature calls close to 4 decades ago.   So my calls are easily recognized as "mine" by anyone who has been around predator hunting or call collecting for a while.    Doesn't mean you can't have more patterns eventually, but IMO you need a solid base of one or two proven patterns to start from.   Predator calling and predator call collecting is coming of age and that is a big plus for the newer spinners.   Mentors were far and few between when I started, so you were forced to figure it all out on your own by lots of trail and error hours in the field and in the shop.   

Nothing can replace long experience in any art form.   But if newer spinners want to send their calls to willing folks they would respect the opinions of, I'd say go for it.   However, I think selling them to experienced call users and collectors will get feedback that is more critical and therefore more beneficial to the spinner.   Generally a person who is not a close friend and has paid for something is more likely to tell it like it is IOW.   Just keep pricing inline until your work has earned the reputation to ask for higher prices.

A lot has changed in predator call making over the last 50 years.   While calls may be offered for sale on looks alone at first now days, reputation based on quality is what earns a spinner long tenure in call making and finally gets them fair prices for their work.

Either way keep experimenting and constantly improving your craft and the sport (and all of us) will benefit from it.  And most importantly, have fun learning.

Footnote for Jim:  no thanks.   

[rjl54]

 See!  If nothing else I've learned a bunch just from the conversation this topic has sparked.  Ladobe's first post really hit home with me because I'm a firm believer in "earning your stripes".  So much so that I don't sell my calls yet.  I'm fortunate to have several hardcore coyote hunters in place who are happy to receive a call for field testing.  They're good for telling me if a call works, has good sound, is easy to blow, and how it holds up overtime.  But beyond that, these guys are my friends, they're just impressed that I've turned something pretty.

  What spawned this idea was the "canned praise" from the "look at this" posts.   I guess what we're looking for is the nod from call makers and collectors who know calls.  Maybe this is something we shouldn't be looking to shortcut.  But some good ideas are being brought up here.
I gratefull that one of the perks we have in this age of technology is the relative ease in which a fellow sitting in the backwoods of Oklahoma can contact and learn from those who have traveled the hard road.  Please don't hold it against me for wanting to take advantage of that opportunity.

I've already advanced my knowledge and skill level in a very short time from listening to the good folks on this and other forums.  With that in mind I'll leave it to the longtimers, the people who built this forum to decide whats best.           
                                                                    Randy

[FinsnFur]

Another idear...I could give poll permissions to those that wanted it, or make a new group, or heck give it to everyone....and let those who are looking for call evaluations post there own polls.
But it would be limited to multiple choice vote entries.

[AWSparrows]

I like that idea.
A person could vote and then post a reply with more info if they so desire.


Whenever I posted a pic looking for feedback I always figured people would give there thoughts & opinions on the design and "look" of the call.
I figured it was common sense.  I mean its hard to give an opinion on sound, feel, etc. from a picture. 


Aaron

[nailbender]

 Great thread so far, and as usual Ladobe is the well spoken gentlemen of the bunch.
  Tough to lay out parameters for a critique forum.  Design and color is all you can really see and that depends on photo quality.    I don't know what the answer is other than expect real opinions when you come here and ask for it.  If you're selling,, whether it move or not should tell you something.  Most of the established callmakers will refund if you are not happy.  But substandard work doesn't leave the shop.
      I've been working with antler and horn, Mother Nature decides most of what it looks like, my job is to make it a predator call.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I have a lot to learn.   The ones that sound great are usually gifts for friends so far. Looks may sell, but sounds will gte the job done.  Kinda like the old saying "chrome won't get you home!".
 

[FinsnFur]

Looking back on some this....

• RJ mentions a poll, I went around it.
• Todd brings up the poll again
• I address it, but dont praise it
• next day I got another idear...a poll! 

Just so ya know Todd, that was completely unintentional 
Man I made myself look retarded amidst it all even.

My apologies..
Been some long days this weekend. Working with the programmer that wrote my Fins and Fur Top sites script to come up with a script to block the spammers from over seas, stealing our code. What a headache. 

[Todd Rahm]

I did'nt see it or take it any other way Jim.  Great Idea on the poll though..........I'll second it.