Call Making Trivia - about Stabilized wood

[THO Game Calls]

Does Stabilized wood absorb moisture?

What do you think?

Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

[studabaka]

I sure do think it 'wood'  Isn't 'stabilized simply mean it has equalized moisture content with surrounding environment?

[HaMeR]

I don't think it does because it would no longer be stable after going thru another wet/dry cycle.

[THO Game Calls]

Well, that would make sense Stu - but in this case, stabilized means it has been impregnated with plastic resins, or acrylic resins.   It is done to make woods that are less than suitable for turning or working, usable and more durable.  Lots of the burls need something to make them harder, and easier to work with.

Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

[CypressSlough]

Al, the acrylic stabilized wood is not supposed to absorb moisture, if stabilized properly. So they say. Not all stabilized wood is the same though. Different companies use different polymers as stabilizers. If you look at a cross section of acrylic stabilized wood, there are still a few open pores between the wood cells. If it does absorb water, it would be a very insignificant amount. Probably not enough to cause any wood movement.  The company I contacted about stabilizing told me
" We use a unique, proprietary process combined with a special blend of monomers and acrylics to stabilize, process, and dye a wide variety of hardwoods and softwoods for a superior product for artisans and manufacturers requiring extra durable material.

This process is the result of over 15 years of research, development, testing, and production. We do not laminate; we achieve complete penetration and stabilize materials in original form, with no change other than color/figure enhancement and a high degree of permanent durability.

This results in material that is resistant to temperature changes, humidity extremes, UV rays and saltwater as well as many acids and solvents commonly encountered in day-in-day-out use."


The drawback is the cost and the inability of stabilizing some woods. The company I talked to about it told me prices ran about $12.50/ pound finished weight for a clear finish. That didn't sound too high until they gave me an example. A 1.5" square, 12" long piece of maple burl would average about $37.00 to stabilize with a $36.00 minimum processing fee. Out of my price range for now. I am gonna have to breakdown and send some of my Red Oak Burl to them though. It's a great way to save that special piece that may be too punky or have some other defect stopping you from using it. Brian.

Here's the site of the company I contacted.
http://www.stabilizedwood.com/

[rjl54]

And here I thought stabilized wood was any piece that finally stopped wobbling on my lathe!

Seriously, some good info here.  I never fully understood what it was.  I'll shut up and listen now. . . .                                                                 
                                                                                  Randy

[studabaka]

  Learned something new.... cool.... however..... I still think as long as wood is wood it wood and it only woodn't if the wood was completely sealed and I don't know how you wood do that as cuting and turning the wood  wood expose the wood..... woodn't it?

So I still vote wood  

[CypressSlough]

Studa, the process forces acrylic resin completely through the wood filling nearly all the voids and cells. Basically making it a solid chunk of acrylic with the look of wood. So as you turn down the wood, it is still stabilized. You end up with a sound that is between that of wood and arcylic. More crisp and clear than wood, but not as much ring as acrylic. Brian. 

[FinsnFur]

And here I thought stabilized wood was any piece that finally stopped wobbling on my lathe!

                                                         
                                                                                  Randy

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[THO Game Calls]

Well, here's the answer that I was given, and have checked with three different soucres who know more about this stuff than I do.

Yes, ALL stabilized wood will absorb moisture.  It wont affect the wood but it will absorb moisture.

It seems that the stabilizing process does not affect the acutal cell structure of the wood and there fore the little timy veins that carry water into the wood when it is aloive, are not filled with the stabilizers.  It just makes them tiny littke rock hard tubes.  So if you soak a piece of stabilized wood in water, it will absorb a great deal of water.   It wont affect the wood, it will just drain back out when you take it out of the water.

I wanted to test this, so,  I bought a bottle stopper blank the other day and left it in a glass of water overnight.  Then I took it out and dried it off and set it on a couple of folded up paper towles.  Yup, they got wet.  I replaced them with new one and they got wet too.   It took about 4 hours for the wood to stop weeping water.  

I have no idea what this means, other than I was just bored and had nothing else better to do this morning.  

Actually, I was looking for information on the process so I might be able to do a home brew type thing.  It's funny how on all the call making sites, call makers are so closed mouth about it, but if -


TIP COMMING - - -  


you hit a few of the better knife making sites, they talk about it like it was no big deal.

AL
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

[HuntnCarve]

Al is correct with his description.  I've seen this material under a SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope).  It does not completely saturate the wood.   Think of wood stucture as a drinking straw.  The center of the straw is what is known as the "Lumen".  The side walls of the straw is what is called "the cell wall".  When wood is green, the lumen is full.  with what is known as" free water".  The water in the cell wall is what is known as "Bound Water".  As long as wood is above what is called the "Fiber Saturation Point", or roughly 27% moisture content, it will not shrink or swell. -The lumens are full of free water, along with the cell wall.  It's when we start drying the wood, and it goes below the Fiber Saturation Point, that it shrinks. -This happens because now we are removing the water molecules from the cell wall itself.  The free water in the lumens have long since been removed.  We are now removing the "Bound water".  So the wood shrinks.
Stabilizers first fill the lumens of the cells.  Once they are full, the cell wall will absorb some of the monomer.  -This depend alot on how efficient the process is and alot of other factors.  Usually they do it under Vacuum, followed by pressure.  Regardless, they are not getting 100% retention, or saturation of the cell wall.  The  chemical monomer (think of it as a "link" of a chain), is then polymerized (basically mean creating a chain out of the monomer units).  This can be done, chemically, or with energy (heat, Radio Frequency, etc), or a combination of both.  The" degree of Polymerization", or chain length, determines how effective the chemical will be in preventing moisture absorption
The bottom line is that the wood (Lumens) are now somewhat filled with a solid material.  The Cell wall is not completely filled.  Therefore, it is still reactive to moisture.  And the most effective moisture transfer occurs in "vapor" or gas form!   Remember the Goretex fabric adds!  Water droplets don't penetrate, but water vapor does.... So what happens when we blow on a call?  We are pushing water vapor through the call!  -See where this is leading?
A simple test would be to weigh a chunk of the "Stabilized wood" on an accurate scale.  Then place it in a container of water.  It will absorb some of the water, and the scale will show it.  Now, put the piece in a steam chamber!  It will take on water vapor, and swell.  The bottom line is that stabilized wood is more stable than plain wood.  But it is not without it's wood characteristics.  I tried to explain this as painless as possible.  Sorry if I confused everyone.  Just a little tough to explain without touching on some of the dynamics of woods.   I can make all this alittle simpler if further explanation is needed?  Just did not feel like writing a book (which I have seemed to have done). Sorry!
Dave

[cjcalls]

Actually, I was looking for information on the process so I might be able to do a home brew type thing.  It's funny how on all the call making sites, call makers are so closed mouth about it, but if -


TIP COMMING - - - 


you hit a few of the better knife making sites, they talk about it like it was no big deal.

AL
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

Hey Al, Believe it or not, Most Call Making site (except this one of coarse) are not great places to find Information about call making. But rather a "Hey Look at What I made , Boost My ego"  kinda of place.

But hey we are all call makers, What else would you expect???

[MattS]

Ok. this is perfect.  I just got a piece of spalted maple today.  It was in a plastic bag, I saw it and all the beutiful markings and just grabbed it.  When I got home I was so excited to get it on the lathe.  Well I pulled it out of the bag and it was so soft.  I knew that as soon as I put any pressure on it on the lathe, the piece would fly apart in splinters.  I just sat down at the computer to get on here and make a post about what to do.  I see this post that I must have missed for some reason and started reading.  Man, this sounds exactly what needs to be done to this piece of wood. 

In this case, is stabilzing the only or best option.  How does one get this done or basically how can I do this myself.

Are there any options for getting a soft piece of wood turnable???  Help me.  I have never been this excited about a piece of wood. (no comments please, lol)

[Hawks Feather]

Matt,

http://www.minwax.com/products/woodmaint/hardener.cfm

Just put the piece of wood in this and let it soak.  It bubbles away as the air is replaced.  If you piece of wood is really soft you may need to apply some, let it dry, turn some off, and then soak again so that it will make it all the way through.  It makes the wood fairly hard or at least hard enough that you can get a call out of it.  I tried it and it worked well enough to get the call done, but I also don't plan to get any more wood that I need to use it on.  The stuff is not real cheap maybe $9 or $10 a can.  If you lived closer I would let you try what I have.

Jerry

[cjcalls]

just for grins:
for the do it your selfer

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2004/polyurethane1.pdf

When I get the chance I'll find the links I have from the Knife forums that details the process a little better.

It's not real hard to to and  doesn't cost much

[MattS]

Thanks Jerry, I actually have some of that that I will soak calls in.  I will need to get some more though.

cj. That is a cool little write up.  I have been wanting to do something like that for elk antler.  I got some very slow drying epoxy resin that I wanted to fill up some very porus elk.  That looks like it would work great.

[DDCalls]

Be forewarned fellas:  All stabilization companies are not equal!  I have turned some GREAT pieces of wood that have been stabilized and I have gotten some true crap.  I have a source now that turns out some of the best stabilized wood I have ever seen.  In fact I am waiting for an order right now.  I will post some pics when it comes in. 

David

[cjcalls]

Matt, you gotta be careful with epoxy. It does not soak into the wood or antler very well. You will end up with a cast block of epoxy with your antler in the middle :shck:

[MattS]

cj - thanks for the heads up. 

[cjcalls]

Poly will not dry tell you pull the wood out and let it sit. Epoxy has a hardner. It will set.

Here some links from the same site as the last one for casting resin.

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2004/acrylic.pdf

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2005/casting_polyester_resin.pdf

http://content.penturners.org/articles/2005/pr_instructions.pdf

Ok that is a little food for thought.

Penturners are pretty free with Information.


Clint