What would you do?

[MattS]

Lets just say that this is a hypothetical question and thats it.

What if you displayed a call you made and it was a pretty rare design. Nothing out there really matches it.  You know, a new style.  Later on you find someone selling calls that are pretty much identicle to the one you made.  I realize that this may happen more often then it should, but then again it might not.  Is this something that just happens and there is nothing that can be done about it?  Or has there been arguments before between call makers about who done it first.

Just hypothetical 

[FinsnFur]

[hide]
I got a feeling I know who this is gonna be about    [/hide]

Guess it depends on how close to it, it actually is. But Ya cant help but to be mad.

[Todd Rahm]

Pm the fella first, and I'm not sure what ya mean by unique but there just down right incidents where ya know it was a copy.

Sometimes its a new spinner experimenting and if he is half way serious when ya PM him he will stop, and then theres those that can't so they...............................

[studabaka]

highest form of flattery  sometimes I think yes, sometimes I think nope 

Not much ya can do and you getting mad, well ain't that just a double wammie 

[Purgatory_Predator_Calls]

Some have said theres only so many ways to turn a piece of wood.....I might have to disagree with them.

My advise just keep making calls and let your craftsmanship and attention to detail speak for themselves.  If there is a copy cat out there, it will eventually come back to them.  Like Jim said, "Can't help but be mad though"!

Give em heck!

Joey

 

[Bob D]

I don't think anybody has a patent on their calls. However, copying someones else's call style is just wrong in my book. I remember when Al was  about the only one who used a brass band on his calls.  it was kinda his trademark so to speak. Now it is common to see lots of different callmakers with brass bands on their calls. I'm sure he felt walked on because of that at first. Now he should feel flattered that everyone is trying to copy his style. No one makes a better call than Al makes. Very few even come close to his perfection .The copy cats can try to make it as good as yours but they usually don't. Keep doing your thing, make it the very best you can make it consistently , and the copy cats will fade away like the sunset.
Bob

[MattS]

I am not real concerned about it.  It "may" have happened a while ago and I just remembered it.  It wasn't anything that I was wanting to supply the world with or anything.  I actually wasn't even planning on making another before I seen that "other" call.  I hope he did well with it.  I never paid attension to it.   I was just curious if it happens that much.

[Brad H]

There's nothing you can do but pm the guy, like Todd said. It happens. I'm a firm believer in giving credit where credit is due. When someone pm's me and asks if they can use a style they noticed on one of my calls I oblige without hesitation, and that tells me a lot about that person. I think highly of the individuals who inspired me to be able to do what I can, and will always give them credit. So when I see something oddly similar to something I thought up, made, and shown, that tells me a lot about that person. Particularly under the pretenses that it was their idea.

I'm referring to antler and horn mind you, and the more extreme type stuff in particular, since that's the majority of what I do, but I know complete duplicates of Al's calls have shown up before without a single word of recognition...more than once.

Bob said they'll fade away, and they will, but like dandelions, they pop up as fast as they die.

Brad

[rjl54]

   Hmmm ....  Ok,  I have a serious question.  I'm just learning to make calls.  I do it for fun and I haven't sold any to speak of, so I guess I can cry "no harm, no foul" when I say my open reed calls may look a little like Al"s.  I like a shape similar the the T.H.O. classic. And I like playing with fitting the metal bands (I wasn't aware this was a trademark of Al's).  If pushed into a corner I could point out that there are subtile differences in the calls I make, but for the sake of this conversation I'll just plead guilty.

My question is this; Is it necessary for a call maker to come up with a radical new design?  Or is it acceptable to use traditional shapes and build on them with your own ideas as you go along?

I see designs on this site that are unique and I would never dream of copying them for the market.  Al's bonker comes to mind (I doubt I could make one if I tried.)  But I do prefer certain styles I personally view as traditional.   Help me out here.

[CypressSlough]

Brass bands on calls aren't a new thing. They have been used on game calls since the early 1900's. Every call made is based on traditional shapes that are modified to fit the makers artistic ideas. Now I'm not saying someone should outright copy another's work. Certain call styles become trademarks so-to-speak of certain call makers. Another person should not try to capitalize on it. It is acceptable, however, to take a style and play off of it to fit your personal design, but you at least need to give credit for the inspiration of the design.     Brian.

[Bopeye]

I have noticed that it does happen......I have no idea what to do as I don't make calls, but knowing me like I know me......I might at least mention it to them and just see what they have to say. Some things are completely plausible and fairly easy to see how it could happen whereas other scenarios always seem to have a funny smell to them.
Either way, I wish you the best with this "hypothetical" situation.......

I'm loving my squirrel call by the way. I haven't taken it coyote hunting yet, but it sure does stir up the local squirrel population as well as the dogs.   

[Ladobe]

For the most part, all calls are the craftsman's interpretation of something they've seen before.   Maybe just one or two elements that they've incorporated into their design, maybe just bits and pieces from several designs all lumped together, maybe just their modification to a traditional or existing pattern, etc, whatever.   There has been a lot of crossover from traditional waterfowl call designs to predator calls as well, so does that make them copies of waterfowl calls?   And yes, a few calls have come along with totally new innovations incorporated in them by spinners who have a vision in their call building, but that is pretty rare.   No doubt with the insurgence of so many new predator call spinners the last few years, calls of similar design elements are going to happen.   But as already said, there is no patent on them and until you have made a large number of the same pattern for enough years they don't really become known as "your" pattern so to speak. 

I had a real advantage in my case because there were so few people making custom predator calls years ago that it was easy to make something totally new.   And believe me I drew and made up hundreds of patterns over the years until I settled on my basic signature patterns 25-30 years ago and a few alternates that I continued to incorporate on a smaller scale.   I came up with patterns that looked great on paper, but terrible once spun out of wood.   I made others that looked great even when spun, but were not comfortable for field use.   And I went through a stage of trying new patterns that were literally out of this world and both not practical for field use and looked like something from the planet Mars or your worst nightmare.   My signature patterns by the way are very traditional and just an improved version of an early commercially made call made by Weems and later also commercially by an old friend Dan Thompson.    Lots of the new spinners have made calls similar to mine or incorporating elements like in mine, but with their own twist on this traditional design.   Doesn't bother me in the least, and if anything I take it as flattery if those elements did in fact come from my calls.   There are many other elements involved than just pattern.   When someone see's or uses one of my calls, they know it's one of my calls, and that's good enough for me.

So I guess I have to pose these questions to you...

Was this pattern something completely new and innovative, or does it fit into any of the above categories as being just your take on something that has been seen/done before?

How many calls of this pattern did you produce?

How many years did you produce this pattern?

Has either of the last two items been long enough for the pattern to become generally known as yours?

Regardless, your energies would be better used if directed at improving your skills and the end results from them rather than being wasted on worrying about something like this.

FWIW

[ninthinning]

Ladobe,
   Thank you for that well thought out discussion.  In the past I have been the victim of just those sorts of copying allegations and this sort of thread really rankles me.  I was accused of copying calls and parts on another web site.  Accused of copying yelpers, plastic tone board covers, brass rings, horn calls and  wood shapes was discouraging.  The reason I prefer making predator calls is there is no set design like there is with duck calls.  The variety of materials, sounds and shapes keeps the creative process from bogging down.  I never copied anyone yet that is the reputation I have been stained with.   Your discussion about recognition, style over time and number of calls built is really the answer.  If a call maker intentionally copies a  signature design that is not right, but why would anyone do such a thing.  What I see is nobody is copying.  There has never been one instance of intentional copying as far as I can see,  just alot of bluster by the accuser.  These allegations are made by egotistical people with little historical  knowledge of their craft, if they see it for the first time it must be new.  All of the design elements of game calls were well established before most call makers were born (except Yoda     ) .  If anyone actually made a totally original design in the 21st century it would be a miracle. 


MattS- I doubt anybody copied your call.

[MattS]

OK, I am not or will not accuse someone of copying a call I made.  This happened a long time ago and it was a single call I made that the design was very new for what I have seen, which is not a lot.  I really didn't care about the call as it didn't meet all of my criteria that I wanted to share with everyone.  It was just something interesting that I wanted to get everyones opinions on.  I just seen someone post a call a couple weeks later that was pretty much identical to the one I made.  And watching that builder for a while prior, they never shown anything in that design before.  It didn't really bother me then.  I am just asking the question based on a general term.  I was just curious to what everyones take is on how far copying a call is done.

I got a couple calls and I wanting to call them  "TKO Bonkerz"  Its similar but not the same.   

[vvarmitr]

I got a couple calls and I wanting to call them  "TKO Bonkerz"  Its similar but not the same.   

^^^^^ :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:  You aren't serious, are you?

[Todd Rahm]

ROFLAO... :roflmao: :roflmao:...........No but he makes a good point.   :roflmao:

I can see it now (Forgive me Uncle Jay).

New Call Maker  Hey fellas I'm new heres my predator call, complete with brass mouth piece. What ya think.

Memebrs  Hey looks good but familiar.  What ya call it? 

New Call Maker  Well ya know I was thinking of calling my calls "Hippo Calls".

Members Oh! Really?

New Call Maker Yeah, what do ya think of this as a slogan "Blow a Hippo"? Not sure how I came up with this? 

Todd Sure it didn't smack ya in the back of the head like a "Brass Rhino"  :shck:


  Matt sad thing is I have seen it just about that blatant a few times.  :roflmao:

[THO Game Calls]

A call maker on PM has already copied my bonkers - exactly.  But he was smart enough to only post them on his web site. 

No kidding.  Guy used to PM me daily for info on making calls.  Now, I never hear from him.

A guy on CCO copied one of my crow calls, right down to the placement of the accent lines.  Excact copy.  He was dunb enough to post it on CCO.   The day after I posted the first bonkers on CCO, he posted a copy of them.

Back awhile ago I made 4 types of tone boards for my open reed calls.  A call maker on PM wanted to buy one of each from me.   I thoght nothing of it until I got an E mail telling me how great it was that I was going to let this call maker mold my toneboards. 

A guy who is really a turkey call maker bought one of my acrylic calls.  He had it molded and then wanted me to sell him tone boards for the calls.   Really.  He sells them on his web site. 

A moderator on PM sent me e mail after e mail one week on how to make wide flat braid lanyards -  long before I ever put the tutorial up.  That same week, on Friday, he voted to ban me from PM.  The night I got my Member Termination letter, the same moderator signed on as a call maker under another name and guess what the first thing he sold was?

Yup  - wide flat braid lanyards.

It may rankle you Eric, but if you dont think it goes on, you have your head in the sand.  Period.

There is a well known call maker who is also a moderator on PM who seems to like the way I describe my calls - so much so that he is now using my description almost word for word in his call descripiptions -

So what can you do?

Nothing.   

As for nothing being original - I am a pretty good student of game calls - I can't emember ever seeing anything like the bonker - maybe they are out there, but I can tell you I have never seen anything like it - until I went to Rainshadows web site that is.

I can tell you that there are a few open reed calls out there that are notihing more than wood bodied Primos Regulators - a few that are copies of Mark Zepps double closed reed, more than one or two that are copeis of an old Faulks call that Primos copied and called the KiYi, and at least one that is nothing more than a molded CritR Call with a rim on the end of it. 

Let people copy your calls.   Just make sure you go the extra mile on those you make.  Sand the inside of the barrel and finish it.  Sand the mouth piece end that fits in the barrel even if no one can see it.   Fill in the grain, wipe off the glue, polish the brass - then, sign the call.  When someone picks up one of your calls and compares it to a cheap knock off, they will see that one was made by a craftsman and the other by a crook.

You can of course confront them, and in some cases they will stop but in some, they will do whatever they can to discredit you to make themselves look better.

Back when I was putting brass bands on calls, I was the only predator call maker doing it. 

And I can't begin to tell you how many times I heard "pretty don't call coyotes" or "his calls are made to sit on a shelf - mine are made for hunting"  or "my calls are all about sound, I don't worry about looks"

Things sure have changed - lots of pretty calls with fancy brass bands out there - a lot of them being made by the same folks who made those comments above.

I guess the bottom line is, as long as there is a buck to be made some people will do what ever they can to make it.

Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

[studabaka]

You need to change the name...... 

" The Original Bonker ..... All others are just imitations "



...... " Those in the know, get a T.H.O. "

[THO Game Calls]

Actuyally Stu - I did put it on my web site that it was an original THO design for these very reasons.  Long before this thread ever popped up.

If a stand up guy - like KeeKee - comes to you and says - I've got a call that is kind of like yours, with the long neck, do you mind if I post it - really - what's the harm? 

Joe - Old Arkyoter called me and said his buff and horn call was sort of like a bonker  - and we talked about it before he posted that call - But it isn't anything like a bonker - but Joe had the decency to let me know up front. 

Heck - half of the designs I make are modifications of duck calls more than likely because that is what I used to study when I started making calls.

One thing for sure though, there are a lot of good  - and great - call makers out there.   A lot of these new guys are going to make an impact on the hobby.  Some of them are very inovative.  Some of them are going to have thier work copied. 

If we build on each others progress - that's good for everyone.  Call makers and callers alike, and it is something that we should all encourage.   I love the style of calls that Eric makes - but I would never copy them.  I love Bearmanrics honey pot - but again, I would never copy it.  The style Joe came up with for his horn and antler call is also a real winner - but again, it's his. 

We need to respect each other more than we do the almighty buck.   I think that is the key, and that is what will hold us together as call makers - each willing and able to share what he knows without fear of being ripped off.

Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com

[MattS]

I AM GUILTY

I mold my own tone boards and they are BASED off of Al's tone boards.  When I started doing open reed calls I didn't know a single thing about making them.  I tried and just could not figure it out.  I went out and got every production and in Al's case, hand made tone board I could get.  I studied them and blew them all till I was out of breath.  I liked Al's the best.  I started making some by hand based from Al's and his tutorial on making them.  I made a couple small changes to fit my needs and once I got a howler and distress board that sounded what I think is good, I molded it because I realized how much work is involved.  I molded my own tone board, not Al's.  I still keep two of Al's boards in my tool box just to go back and reference when I am having troubles.  Now I am hand making boards a lot now and could not do it without using quality pieces as guides.  I do not sell my boards outright.  I did once on ebay for shits and giggles and they sold, but I haven't did it since then.  I use them on all my cheaper calls because they are production style plastic boards.  I am working on another tone board style right now that is based off of a manufactured design. 

I will never just plain out copy something.  If I like it and think I can change it to fit my needs then I will use them as a guide.    I think that is what this whole thread is about.  How many changes can be done to a certain item whether it is a call or a tone board before it goes from someone else's design to yours?

Al, I hope its OK that I used your board they way I did and do?????  I won't take credit for perfection.