Ninthinning

[Todd Rahm]

Ninth I would have to say my suspicions about you have been dead on. You sir are a blemish to the call spinning family and the hobby, and I would like to see you take you and your ethics back to a board that supports it.  

http://search.stores.ebay.com/American-Game-Calls_rhino_W0QQfciZQ2d1QQfclZ3QQfsnZAmericanQ20GameQ20CallsQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsubZ11QQsaselZ4433017QQsofpZ0

- You started your predator spinning career copying everything that came out on PM, and denied it.
- You resold calls at your store with out giving credit to the call makers, and lead the public to believe they were yours.
- You intentions are deceiving as you change your stances
- You came in here and purchased up all these calls, with the intention of making a quick buck.

You are as about as low as the hobby has seen in a while.  

[ninthinning]

- You started your predator spinning career copying everything that came out on PM, and denied it.
I deny this.  You could be specific here.


- You resold calls at your store with out giving credit to the call makers, and lead the public to believe they were yours.
I deny this.  If a call doesn't have a maker listed in my store it is due to over site.  I'm proud of the calls I make, why would I want credit for something someone else made?

- You intentions are deceiving as you change your stances
I do not understand this statement.  Why would I try to deceive anybody?  I've been pretty clear on my views concerning supply and demand.

- You came in here and purchased up all these calls, with the intention of making a quick buck.
Rick was selling calls, I bought some then was told to stop buying them and I did.  Nobody bought any of the other calls off the post and there were many I didn't buy.


I didn't mean to offend anyone by buying and selling others calls.  Its hard enough to sell calls.  The call makers I have purchased calls from said they did not mind me reselling them and welcomed a sale.  I do not see why reselling calls is a bad thing.  If you think any of the calls in my store are over or under priced please point it out to me.  I try to price calls at what I think they are worth. 




    I am good for the hobby of predator call making, my ideas are original and creative.  I have been helpful to other call makers and see influences of my techniques.  My Ebay store is interesting and educational.  I do not have a web site to show off my collection so I display it on Ebay.

[Todd Rahm]

- You started your predator spinning career copying everything that came out on PM, and denied it.
I deny this.  You could be specific here.

I'm not surprised, ya denied it back then when ya was confronted in a post at PM too. I watched ya on Ebay before ya started posting on PM, and for a while it seemed like a week after something new in design came out on PM, you posted an exact copy on Ebay, and took credit for it, and you did this for a while. The only thing you wasn't doing that would have made it more obvious was posting who ya copied the idea from.

- You resold calls at your store with out giving credit to the call makers, and lead the public to believe they were yours.
I deny this.  If a call doesn't have a maker listed in my store it is due to over site.  I'm proud of the calls I make, why would I want credit for something someone else made?

Again I'm not surprised. Just a week ago I went through and you gave credit for a few of the makers, but you were still reselling calls and not even having the courteousy to tell the public who made it.................just listed them as custom predator calls.

- You intentions are deceiving as you change your stances
I do not understand this statement.  Why would I try to deceive anybody?  I've been pretty clear on my views concerning supply and demand.

You come out selling your unproven calls to market and telling your fellow call makers they are selling their calls to cheap, and you stood this ground until ya started buying calls up and reselling them. Here recently when asked if they were over priced you stated...

Calls are priced just right.

And when I questioned your change in directions, ya stated........

I buy calls for what they sell for and sell calls for what I think they are worth.

Seems your answers are based on how your pockets are effected, and not on what you think is better for the hobby.  I'm fully aware of supply and demand, and I think your comments were made to supply your demand, not that of the call maker. If thats the case, pay double what the call maker ask, if your going to resell it for triple. That way they are getting better then "supply and demand" or what they would get on the board, then mark it up. If ya sell, its win win for you and the call maker, but again I think your explanation is a bunch of self serving whooooooooooooey.

- You came in here and purchased up all these calls, with the intention of making a quick buck.
Rick was selling calls, I bought some then was told to stop buying them and I did.  Nobody bought any of the other calls off the post and there were many I didn't buy.

You didn't buy some, you started to buy them all and would have I think, if'n Jim hadn't seen something in what you were doing. To think I was OK with it, when I thought you were adding to your own collection, but then again I remember not long ago folks were showing calls of their collections, and the funny thing was, when you showed your two pics of your collection, they all appeared to be your own call.  I should have been suspicious too.

The sad thing is, Rick is posting those calls on the boards to give the fellers first shot at them, and so that they go to good homes. If he wanted to sell them on Ebay he would have.

The other sad thing is, all but one of those Rhinos can still be purchased from Jay for not much more, then ya paid for them, but hey, he must be one of the many call makers that have seen through ya, and choose not to sell to you.

Off that post the only one ya didn't buy was the Lux and Bow purchased it, ya even came back and bought the MadMoose/BradH call. So not only do you appear not to be truthful, ya seem to can't see the Truth when its in front of ya, and your participating.

If you think any of the calls in my store are over or under priced please point it out to me.  I try to price calls at what I think they are worth.

OK most if not 90% are over priced and a few have been sitting there a while which leads me to wonder about the demand you mentioned. I also noticed you were fortunate enough to have sold a few calls, but from the history and feedback of the buyer they weren't really in the "know" about predator calls, nor did ya mention to the customer that purchased two Cronks from ya, that she could have saved up to almost half on one howler if she had just purchased it from Rich. Seems to me your not in to the hobby where most makers watch out for each other and direct customers in their direction, matter fact you sole interest in the hobby is "money" and most of that on the back of other call makers.

I am good for the hobby of predator call making, my ideas are original and creative.  I have been helpful to other call makers and see influences of my techniques.  My Ebay store is interesting and educational.  I do not have a web site to show off my collection so I display it on Ebay.

Yes, some of your ideas are original and creative,  I'm not sure how helpful you have been, and I'm not sure who ya influenced with your techniques, and none f these issues are at question. Your store is interesting, and you Sir have not got a collection on Ebay, you have store where you profit or attempt to profit off the skills of makers that are in most part, superior to yours, period, no fluff. The other thing I noticed on your store, is that you price most calls higher then your own. This appears to be done to sell more of your calls, because they seem for the most part to be the cheaper calls in the store? Again helping your $hobby$.

If you don't see why your bad for the hobby, you never will. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck, and you Sir are a fishy smelling Duck! 


Maybe you call makers should start cutting out the middle man or pricing your calls, to profit from the guy that profits from you. 

[ninthinning]

http://search.stores.ebay.com/American-Game-Calls_rhino_W0QQfciZQ2d1QQfclZ3QQfsnZAmericanQ20GameQ20CallsQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsubZ11QQsaselZ4433017QQsofpZ0


Again, highly selective,  I put all these calls in my Ebay store the same day:

[THO Game Calls]

When I post a call for 25 or 30 bucks, I know full well that I am not even coming close to recouping what I have invested in time and materials. 

But I also know that that call is going to go to a guy who loves to hunt, who maybe has a couple of kids, a mortgage and other bills.  A guy who works his ass off all week so he can steal a couple of hours away from the family on the weekend to call some coyotes.   And the mere fact of knowing he is out there with MY CALL, doing what he loves is worth more than any amount of money to me. 

I have had three people in the last week refuse calls that I offered them for free.  And while I appreciate their reasons, I sometimes don't feel that they understand why some of us make calls. 

For a few of you it's ALL about the money.  For most of us though, it's about the hobby, the craft, the art, and the fun of making something for someone else.  It's about more than just the money the calls bring.

In the past year, I have met some of the finest people on the face of this earth BECAUSE of my calls.  Folks like CCP - and Bopeye, Browning204 - Stu - Semp, and a host of others.   Most of them got calls for free, but in reality, I was paid back ten times what the calls were worth.  CCP made a video commercial of my calls.  It was a classic,  I've talked to Bopeye and others on the phone and made friendships that I might never have made, got a new hunting buddy in Browning204 - found out that Semp is a fellow Marine -   all because of my calls.    If I had to pay taxes on what i feel my calls have actually netted me, I'd be in the poor house because I couldn't afford it.   And if you don't feel the same way Eric, you are missing out on some of the greatest things in life.

You have a talent to make calls.  A gift.  What you do with it is your business, but I implore you to look at this from both sides.   When you snatch up the calls we make to resell in your E bay store at twice what we offered them for, you rob up of the very reasons we made those calls. 

It's why if you ever get a call of mine for your store, it will come from a third party and not from me. 

I'll close by saying that there is nothing wrong with making a profit from your labors.  Nothing at all.   But if you only use dollars and cents to measure what you have, you really don't have all that much.

Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com
The Custom Call Makers Supply Store

[Hawks Feather]

Ninth,

I guess I should keep my mouth shut and my views to myself, but I have never been able to do that very well.  My assumption, when I first saw that you were buying calls on predator masters, was that you were a collector and were adding calls to your collection.  Like many people I do searches for predator calls on eBay and had found your store there sometime back.  At that time I started seeing calls and thought to myself "that call looks a lot like one of _____'s (fill in the blank with a call maker's name) calls.  A month or so later there was discussion on predator masters about calls being bought and then sold on eBay at higher prices.  After that, you did in most cases, start saying that this is one of _____'s calls.  My assumption is that you paid the call maker what they were asking for the call, which technically did make them yours to do with as you saw fit.  The problem for me was that you weren't up front with the call maker when you got the call.  You knew you were buying it to resell.  Again, this is not something that you would "have to" do, but it would have been a nice gesture.

As for pricing of calls and your posts on that, I have to agree with several others that have a different view on your post that the calls are priced about right.  If you are able to buy calls, (so that you can retail them on eBay) the prices that call makers are being paid are too low.  Most retail stores don't sell items they purchase at the wholesale price; they mark them up to a "suggested" retail price.  If calls that call makers are posting for sale are already at the "suggested" retail price (as you suggest when you say they are price correctly) then there would be no way that you could mark them higher in price than what you paid for them.  Or at least it seems that way to me.

As for the Rhino calls, I have a couple and they are nice calls.  They are also a nice addition to anyone's collection, especially at the price that Rick had listed.  That is the reason that I didn't buy them all as soon as I saw the post.  I felt that at that price this would be a good chance for several members here to get either a great working call or a great collector call.  While I am not sure, I think Rick is working on paying for a new lathe and some other tools for his new shop.  Since Rick has his own eBay store, my assumption was that he posted the calls here so that there would be a chance for members to get a great call at a great price.  And yes, I also know that you paid him what he was asking for the calls which to you makes it a mute point.

I guess I look at you as a call wholesaler and the picture of the calls that you posted that were added to your store in one day pretty well proves that, at least to me.  If you can buy calls and then sell them at a higher price, it proves two things to me – one that you are a wholesaler and two that the prices of calls are too low.

These are just my views.

Jerry

[keekee]

Same here Ninth, I haft to agree with what has been posted in here. If you can buy a call and double your money by re selling it on eBay then something is wrong!

I don't have a eBay store, and for the same reason Al posted. I know that most of the guys that buy my calls have kids and a family, a mortgage, or rent, gas is off the charts as well. And every dime a person get now means something to everyone!

Just like my howlers, Higgins stopped making them for a reason. I pay 19.99 plus shipping for the mouth piece, 8.50 or more for the horn ( plus shipping ) when I can find them, the serving, JB weld, clear coat, material to cut the bands from, with three free bands with a call, tools to do the howler, wax, polish, sand paper,  and it takes me 5 days or more to build one. For 100.00 bucks! And that don't count the Elc or my time.

Same with a custom call. 20.00??? Material, labor, elc, and supplies! Not counting the calls and stuff I give away! I don't make a dime at the end of the year. Ask my tax man!

But it sure means more to me than anything to get pictures in the mail, emails, and storeys about how the calls worked. Same with the videos, I don't know how many times I take money out of my pocket to pay for a add or cover a bill. But if that video helps some one kill a coyote, I am happy!

Sure its nice to be able to take a few bucks and pay for a trip, but it don't happen! Not yet anyway! Ask Jd, or Jim! I don't know how many times I have tried to just give up, to much stress, no money, pulling money from the family funds to get by. Hell we been stuck in a air port with no ride and no money in out account to get a ride!

I just get the feeling you not in this for the same reason most of us are?

I will tell you a story I had happen to me this fall. I offered to give some stuff away at the Columbus Sports show this year. To a local benefit. At the end of the show they had the drawing, a small kid maybe 10 years old walks up to the booth with his dad and hands me a ticket for a free call. All dressed up in camo, hat and all, dad standing there all proud. And says I think I won a call? I told him you sure did! I hand him the call he takes it and his dad tells him to shake my hand and tell me thanks! He did and that make my hole trip! That's what this is ALL about!

I gave a kid a Crow call about 15 years ago at a sports show. Just because he looked like he needed one. 12 years later his dad ends up working for me. Come to find out that crow call made a hunter out of that kid! He would not leave his dad alone until he started taking him hunting! That's what this sport is about!

Jim's son at the LBL. Got mad at me for not selling him a 20.00 call. I'm not going to take 20.00 from a friends son for a call! I will give him one if he asks, but I will not take his money for the call! That's what this sport is about!

I gave a little girl some calls out the a sport show just because she had the balls to walk up to the table and show me the state contest trophy she just won. I could tell she didn't have much, and could use the support! That's what this is about!

I rest my case!

Brent

[FinsnFur]

  

[awh]

I will say this. For all the call makers I have talked to and seen their calls, I have the utmost respect for you as call makers and as a person. The calls I have seen from you guys show that you know what your doing and the time put into them jumps at you when you hold one in your hand. The extras that you do and the fact of how you do it show me that there are still people in this world that care. That's a hard quality to find now a day and all of you are considered friends here.

I agree with what the guys are saying here Eric. And what to bring this thought up for you to ponder.
When Cam started making calls I had asked where you got a certain type of wood. You in return sent Cam a box full of wood to play with on the lathe. That showed me that you were a man who would go out of his way to make a boy whom you didn't even know happy. And the box did just that. He smiled so big the day he opened it. He asked who it was from and then went straight to the computer to look at your calls you had posted on the forums so he could see what you made from the types of wood sent.
Then I bought him one of your calls. The detail you put into it really stands out and you can see you had several hours in making that call. To me the price I paid for it was not what it was worth, you could have got more out of it, but to Cam it's priceless as he has a call from someone that helped him and was willing to do something for him even though they had never meet. And I promise, he will always remember those people and what they did to get him started. He's just that type of person and if you ever meet him you'll see what I'm talking about. He can look at certain calls and tell you, that person sent me this or that. And he smiles when he says it. He even tries to tell people that the call he just gave them has wood from so and so and a reed from this person in it. They don't have a clue who he's talking about, but he does and he's proud that he knows them.

Those are more important to me than any amount of money involved in this sport. Making friends, sharing ideas, helping someone you don't even know. Cam has sold a hand full of calls since he started making them. But has gave more of them away because he likes the fact that people talk to him and treat him like one of the guys verses a child. I'll keep buying the materials and loosing a ton of money so he can continue to make these friends and stay in the woods. No amount of money could replace those feelings to me.
It's not always about money, it's about people.

[Nelson]

I couldn't agree more with what Tho, Hawk, KeeKee, and AWH said.  You guys are tops in my book!!!!!

           

Nelson

[FOsteology]

Quite honestly, I was wondering how long this situation was going to run its course before it was brought out into the open and hashed out.....

Eric, I'm sure by now you can see that this "business" of yours has struck a raw nerve with the community.

Other than being a budding Call Collector myself, I really have no dog in this.... however, I have seen and heard for the past year how this practice has affected several call makers. It really rubbed me the wrong way, for reasons as already stated so eloquently by others..... but mainly because you have also taken calls that were given to you as a gift and turn right around and listed them in your eBay store.

Those predator calls given to you while hunting together should have had some special meaning...... a bond. Instead, you chunked them out on your eBay store..... it cut my friend deep.

[ninthinning]

Al, Jerry and Brent and Fos, Thank you for the honest discussion.  In the future I will take all this into consideration,  whats done is done.  As far as buying calls I will stop for awhile.  Never ment anything but the best.  Always felt it was a compliment to the call maker to price his call at what I felt was a fair price.  Guess I always thought a sale is a sale but I am obviously wrong.  Al you were always the most confusing to me.  I could not see how a guy could profit selling $75 calls for $25,  now I see its not about the money and I understand your point of view a little better.
Thank you,
9th

[HaMeR]

I have nothing in this as well. You have all made your point in a very gentlemanly manner. Firm but very polite.

But what really smacked me in the face was:

it cut my friend deep.

[FinsnFur]

I'm not a call maker Eric as you may know. And while I agree with everything these guys are laying out here so far, I gotta tell ya I really commend ya on your reactions so far.

Most people would have just started whipping stuff around like a kid having a tantrum and slinging words that not even the PM Mods can spell, but you seem to be taking it all in and attempting to sort it out. 

[CypressSlough]

Ninth, I have to agree with some of what has been said. I know when someone buys a call for the price I have set, it's theirs to do with as they see fit. Although, I would much rather see my calls go to people that are going to appreciate them through pride of ownership, and not through the profit they bring them. When you bought a call from me, I didn't know about your resale shop. You never told me that was your intention either. Had I known this beforehand, I wouldn't have sold it to you. It's just my personal preference.

When I post a call for 25 or 30 bucks, I know full well that I am not even coming close to recouping what I have invested in time and materials. 

But I also know that that call is going to go to a guy who loves to hunt, who maybe has a couple of kids, a mortgage and other bills.  A guy who works his ass off all week so he can steal a couple of hours away from the family on the weekend to call some coyotes.   And the mere fact of knowing he is out there with MY CALL, doing what he loves is worth more than any amount of money to me. 

Al,  I agree 100% with the feedback from people adding more value to callmaking than the money involved. Helping out other callmakers, making friends and sharing ideas and hunting experiences are priceless. No amount of money could give you the same joy and pride. People also need to realize, most callmakers don't get rich from this either. Most of them are the same type of guys who love to hunt, have a couple of kids, a mortgage and other bills and a wife that all regulate how much money they can afford to spend on a hobby. Alot of them can't justify taking money from their family to sell calls below cost. Granted I know a few guys are in it just for the money, and that is definitely detrimental to the art. At the same time, the guys trying to recoup their investment shouldn't be looked at the same way. We all have to be able to replace our equipment and materials, and if that has to come from call sales, I see no problem with it, as long as they are priced accordingly. Personally, I make zero profit from call sales, but in the end I have to try to at least break even. If I could afford it, I would give every call away just for the satisfaction of helping someone, but unfortunately I can't afford it. As is the case with most callmakers.


Brian.

[rainshadow1]

I can appreciate the sentiment, and I definately identify with it. I love the fact that my calls being blown in the fields I can't get to, calling the animals I'd never be able to see, hunting places I could never afford to go... and I love getting the glory shots and stories e-mailed from customers! I show them off to anybody who gets within 100 feet of my computer...

But you guys have to be very aware of what you're trying to do to another man here. In a free country, in a free market society, please put careful thought into what you're personally trying to accomplish with this thread. There's a fine line between presenting an opinion, and something that's very, very wrong.

[THO Game Calls]

I sell a product in my on line store that I have to buy from a distributor.  Dependin on who I buy from, the price can vary.  So I contacted the manufacturer to see if I could buy direct and pass the savngs on to my customers.

They told me they only sell to distributors.

In a free country, a free market - please explain how that is "very very wrong?"  Because there is no difference in them not selling to me, and my not selling to someone who wants to resell my products. 
Al
THO Game Calls
www.thogamecalls.com
The Custom Call Makers Supply Store

[FOsteology]

In a free country, a free market - please explain how that is "very very wrong?"  Because there is no difference in them not selling to me, and my not selling to someone who wants to resell my products.

Indeed.


rainshadow1,

I don't see your point nor where you're going with this.... ? Could you elaborate?

[ninthinning]

Tho, its a moot point.

FOS,  I found the call you were talking about.  thanks,  put it in my box of most valuable calls. 9th

[rainshadow1]

Al, the point is not concerning your refusal to sell to Eric. YOu have every right to refuse to sell to Eric. The manufacturers are as free to refuse to sell to you, as you are free to refuse to sell to Eric. That's exactly the point. Eric is as free to buy low and sell high as anyone is to refuse to sell to him. The point is as follows...

The point, Fos, is that you have to be very very careful about trying to stop someone from operating legally in a free society.  This is WAY, WAY, WAY bigger than calls and callmaking. Trying to shame, or berate, or bully, or gang up on a man so as to influence how he lives his life and runs his business... very very wrong. Be the comodity calls, or Bibles, or underwear. It's wrong.