FoxPro's new Open Country Caller

[snowcamoman]

THO,
No worries or apologies needed, I was just trying to show my point of view on the situation.
I can see exactly what you're saying about the whole scenario and I cannot argue the fact that FCC certified the KAS-2000 remote. Nobody can argue it, it's plain as day that FCC certified it FRS and all. Does FCC make mistakes and things slip through their system? It occurs and they have the right to "un-certify" or pull certification on an item. The way FoxPro posted and related FCC information on WT's remote is up to them and I can't argue how they do what they do. I think that the information could have been presented differently, but that's just my opinion. Deceptive/Unethical? Not the way I view it, but I know what the regulations are more than joe blow, and I've already said what could happen earlier in this post. Does FoxPro have to stoop to this level? They pointed out information on WT's remote but FoxPro never went through the process to formally get FCC to issue a citation.  I know this because I emailed FCC and recently inquired. If FoxPro really wanted to be the bad guys, they could have gone through FCC's procedures to get that ball rolling. So everybody who really wants to bash on FoxPro needs to rethink the fact that they could have had WT's remote pulled from market probably years before.

Here's the way I see it, hypothetical story.
Let's jump back say 3-5 years or so ago. I own an e-caller company and sell a product. Then another company  posts a chart on their website tearing up my product and calling it "Toy Class" along with a remote comparison just bashing my product. The first thing I would do is to get a-hold of this competitors product and see why it's so good. I'd tear into as any Engineer or company would do (Trust me they all do it, so don't  anybody say it's not so because that's bogus). As soon as I tore that remote apart, I would've thought, "Hmmmmm... that's a really simple remote, I think I'll make one based on a similar concept." I'd redesign the remote, keypad, functions, etc.. and I'd go through all of the steps to get that product to market. Then, I get to the point where I have to certify my remote and find out that FCC won't certify it for me because it does not meet the FCC requirements. I'd be HOT about this, no doubt, especially since a competitor is trashing me and bragging about their product. I wouldn't have even messed around with posting something on my website, I would've gone through the process to get that competitor's product pulled from market as soon as possible. I know most of you might think that's just wrong, but think about it. You're getting badmouthed by a competitor and at the same time the competitor is using a product you  know can legally be removed from the market because of noncompliance. Whether FCC certified it or not, I know that I could get it yanked.   

With that said, I can see exactly where FoxPro is coming from. I actually have to give them Kudos for not going through with the formal citation because they have more heart than I would have. I guess when it's looked at from different viewpoints, who is stooping to what level? I hold no grudges against anybody because life is too short and as we all know: Business is Business. Let those guys deal with the politics so we can hunt.


Edit: Just out of my own curiosity and because we're all talking about FCC stuff, I checked out the old WT FCC Certification for the NW6KAS-2000 remote, which was done Nov 2, 1998 based on the information I have. Then, I checked out WT's website on their history to see what remote that model went with.  I then noticed that in 1991-Wildlife Technologies designed and built a remote control tape based sound system. Then again in 1995-Designed and developed a solid state remote controlled audio player.

From that information right there, would you assume that there were some FCC legal issues going on with the remotes? How do you legally use a remote 2 years before it was certified? I have some old WT's from the 1995-1997 era and they used the same type of remote that was certified in 1998. That's awful strange that 2 years before it was certified it was being used. Please, somebody try to explain the legality of this one to me. There is no loophole in FCC for that one as far as I know.

[TheHunt]

Snowcamoman,
Many people like the study because we do NOT have the ability to do this our selves.  I like, no love the conversations in this thread...   

[snowcamoman]

Thanks TheHunt, I appreciate the kind words.
I'm trying to stay afloat and make my funds stretch until this fall when most of the manufacturers release their new products. I have some stuff to sell that I'll put into the e-caller pot and wait on. I know that the original testing didn't cover a ton, but the new rounds should be great. I'm actually thinking of getting a digital video camera to film and post some of the testing on. I need to be careful and make sure that the sounds don't get put on the web, but I can edit that stuff out. I think with some short videos and pictures, guys can really get a grasp on each product and what they'll do.

[THO Game Calls]

First you have to realize that the remote was certified in 1993.  Not 3 to 5 years ago.  That may make a huge difference.

Secondly, just a casual reading of the test report would show that it is highly unlikely that the FCC made a mistake.  It is clearly stated in the report that the remote is basically a midland FRS radio.

Third, the testing was done IN HOUSE by the FCC.  It was not subcontracted out as was often the case.  Being done in house leaves less room for error I would imagine.

Now, here is what I think happened.

The FCC certified the remote.  Fox Pro got hold of it and took it apart as you said   Then they tried to build one like it but, they could not get it certified.  We do not know what the FCC rules for FRS radios were in 1993 but I am going to make an educated guess that they changed with the times and the popularity of FRS radios, just as the regs for CB radios changed over the years.  

Fox Pro might not have been able to get a remote certified because of the changes, and WT might have been grandfathered.  

Sour Grapes on Fox Pros part?   Mad because of the TOY statement on BM's chart?

Maybe so, but I can show you a quote where a current Fox Pro Field Staffer once said that the Loudmouth had the Fox Pro beat in sound quality.  

And finally, it's all a moot point.   WT no longer uses FRS technology in their callers.  Has not for at least 5 years?

Yet the Fox Pro Field staff still bring it up in an effort to make WT look bad and Fox Pro look good.  

That is why we are having this discussion.   If it had not been brought back up by Fox Pro this thread would be 4 or 5 pages shorter.

The question then is......

When are THEY going to let it go and move forward?

Al

[snowcamoman]

THO,
Where did you find that the NW6KAS-2000 was certified in 1993? Everything I see is during 1998/1999. There is even discussion about the FRS unit in this chain of emails with FCC:
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewCorrespondenceReport.cfm?calledFromFrame=N&RequestTimeout=500&application_id=92451&fcc_id='NW6KAS-2000'

The FCC Report of Certification I have was in 1998. If you have something that says otherwise, can you email it to me? Also, in reading the correspondence items, it's interesting to read this part:
"Apparently, the transmitter
will allow one-way voice call as well, if so programmed on the touchpad. Wildlife Technologies will produce the products with the voice call available by pressing A on the touchpad."
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=210745&native_or_pdf=pdf

It really doesn't matter at this point, but it still is amazing to me that it was certified. I know that none of the 8 WT remotes I have can be used to activate any type of one-way voice calling by pressing A. I don't believe the FRS regulations were much different then. If they've changed, it probably wasn't in regards to this type of item we're discussing here. I would imagine the old regulations could be found somewhere, but it's not worth getting into.

And finally, it's all a moot point.   WT no longer uses FRS technology in their callers.  Has not for at least 5 years?

I bought a KAS-2020 in 2004 and their website says that the new KAS-2030 came out in 2006, so the FRS technology was used up until the new model KAS-2030 came out. 

I'm certain that at some point, the WT FRS remote issue will dissolve. There is newer technology available to get a  new FCC Certified remote with probably over a mile range.

Even without going into the FCC WT certification issue, what is your take on the 1991 and 1995 WT remote use? Legal? Ethical?

[THO Game Calls]

Peter,

I can't comment on the 91 to 95 remotes.  Up until the later half of 93 I was still on active duty in the Marine Corps and hunting coyotes at that time was the furthest thing from my mind.   Between 93 and 95 I was trying to get my family settled, start a new job and adjust to civilian life,



Concerning legality and ethical issues, if you remember, when all this blew up in 2005, I was looking at buying an E caller.  I called the FCC to sort out the legal issue for myself.   

As far as ethical issues go -

everyone screws up and does things they wish they hadn't.   All we can do is do our best and learn from out mistakes.

I try to be ethical in my dealings with others, in both my business and my personal life.  I'm not always successful in some peoples minds, but it isn't for lack of trying on my part.  I over commit sometimes and that makes me look bad to some.   There are a couple people who asked me to build them calls that I still have not completed.  One because of time, and one, asked for something really special and I dont think I have found that one piece of wood that will be what he wants.  It may take another 6 or 12 months but I will find it, and when I do he will get his call.

There is one person who sent me a couple of calls that were so beautiful that I never felt I had anything to repay him with.  That has been over three years now.  One day I will have something that will meet what i feel is a fair trade for the kindness he showed me.   HuntnCarve, I have not forgotten you, just never had anything that measured up to what you sent me.

I guess I don't fully understand coyote hunting yet.  Oh I understand the mechanics of it, the calls and calling, set ups, wind, rifle selection, but I don't understand the God Almighty Importance of being on the top of the heap in a game where most of the time, we just leave the animals lay in the field to rot after we kill them.

This should be a sport where we all help each other, have fun, enjoy the bounty that nature has given us and the friendships we can derive from all of it.

Instead, it is all about who is the best, who can sell the most, who can make himself look the best in other peoples eyes.   Why?

I dont buy an e caller to say I have the best e caller on the market,  I buy one to kill coyotes with. 

I don't buy a rifle so I can look cool to the blue jays when I am out calling by myself.  I buy one to kill coyotes with.  I dont buy calls to say I have this or that or something else, I buy them so I can make the calls I produce sound better and learn and grow in My craft.

I am a hunter - I buy things that make my time in the woods easier, safer, and more productive.  Not to be a fashion statement or an Internet hero on some discussion board. 

My boots are well worn, but still very serviceable.  My camo has been patched a time or two but it is now soft and quiet in the woods.  The bluing on my old Savage 243 is starting to wear a bit on the barrel, but the gun still shoots minute of coyote out to about 200 yards and that is all I can ask of it.  It's an old familiar friend that just knows where to go when I bring it to my shoulder.

I've watched Loudmouth, FoxPro, Mionaska, Western RIvers and WIldlife Technologies go at it for years on these boards trying to prove who has the best e caller.   No one remembers the past, when they used 78 RPM records to call coyotes.  I wonder how many reading this ever had a Tape Player freeze up on them in the wood yet still managed to call and kill coyotes with it when it got warm enough to work?

The mark this and mark that sound libraries, digital this and digital that, 16 bit, 24, 32 and 48 bit sounds - - my god man they are coyotes and guys used to call them with 78 RPM records - when will it all end and we can just go hunting again?

And the worst part for me is the guys who produce the videos that teach others how to hunt.   Nothing is more disturbing than that to me.  I know that most of these guys have their hearts in the right place, but they get so taken in by the quick buck that it just ruins the whole process.  You watch a video and instead of trying to glean a little information out of it, you end up trying to see if the reviewer or the comments on the boards were accurate and you end up missing the whole point.

Nothing will teach you to hunt coyotes in your area like actually getting out there and hunting them.  And no amount of money or fame or perceived position will ever come close to equaling the rewards that nature can provide the man who takes the time to sit under a tree and watch the sun rise on a crisp fall day.

Feel free to use whatever rifle, e caller, camo pattern, back pack, or what ever you want.  Hunt for fame an fortune if that is your thing.  I will hunt because I am a hunter, and I hunt for what the experience of the hunt can give me, not for what I can exploit of it to others for monetary gain, because what I get is much more than I could ever take when I am in the woods.

Have a safe day Peter

Al

[browning204]

Browning204:  If you are making a concentrated effort to get some of the Foxpro Field Staffers to play your silly game, you are failing miserably.  If you are trying to pull Foxpro, Inc. into your cesspool, you are weak on that effort too.  My sincere advice would be to get out of that way of thinking, and post what you want to post about products you like, and try to inform readers on this forum with positive information.

Possumal: I am not trying to get anyone to play my silly game, from the looks of it the game is already been in full swing, Now and before I even came around to these forums.

I am not trying to pull foxpro into anything, they don't need my help, they do it well by themselves.

Thank you for your advice ( I don't remember askin for it) but I have and do post positive things about products that I enjoy. You see, long before I knew about E-callers, Bill Martz, The Dillons, Minaska and all the other stuff I would cruise the forums and read what I could. I read alot about the foxpro on PM but after a while I noticed how the "goon squad" raved about the product and how they treated people who did not have the same feelings, but I blew it off. I ended up buying the WT and started learning about E-callers and all the things that make them work and YES I used foxpro's in the feild. Then it was I noticed, in my opinion how much of a truck load of hype the foxpro's are. And I continuied to watch the Dillons and some mods on pm and how they marched around and screamed "foxpro or die" That is really what caused me to go anti-foxpro. Not so much the caller, but the people behind it and supporting it.

If your so wise on the forums than you will remember that it was ME that got gang raped long before I ever posted a negative thing about anything. I had NO IDEA about the caller wars. I posted that I had met Bill, bought his caller and then it was all over from there. So why don't you go preach your "be kind to others and post happy thoughts" To the people that jumped on me long ago. Why don't you go tell the "goon squad" to tone it down? Why does it have to be the people who DO NOT like foxpro that are assholes?

By they way, I have seen you post more things in a negative way about Bill than I have EVER posted about foxpro.Why don't you take your own advice and be warm and fuzzy?

And you can take my "goon squad" comments and apply them anyway you want.

[browning204]

Peter: I will respond to you at lunch time.

[Greenside]

"I was able to play with one at the SHOT show. It honestly looked like a cheap plastic kids toy and I'm betting that as rough as our community is on equipment, it isn't going to hold up very well"

Here's an example of what I was referring  to in a prior post.  It's a reply from a staffer concerning the new primos call that will be coming out in the near future. I'm sure it's nothing more than an attempt to turn people away from buying a product from a reputable company, that's in competition to the company he represents.  Maybe not out right but it's sure easy to read between the lines

This is one thing that I wish the boards could put the reigns on.  All  he e-caller companies do it, some just worse than others. The same with the custom call people. someone asks about a Sceery, critr' or like and the next thing you know it's  so and so's custom that you really need.

Very annoying to me.

[snowcamoman]

THO,
Very well said and I agree that it's all about calling animals and getting out there and doing it. The past is done and things change over time as they always do. People and companies make mistakes and must move on as well. I'm not a cheerleader for anybody and will be the first to help anybody who wants it with anything. I think most people on these forums really do want to give advice to help other hunters and teach the younger generation coming into the sport. Some of the things that go on in these forums just shouldn't happen or even be discussed. Politics will always be just that and no matter how hard somebody argues or tries to prove their point, things never change in some people's minds. I do not agree with all that goes on and how things are done by companies, but they're not my companies to run and we as the general public have a small view of what might really might be going on behind the scenes. I can only ascertain certain ideas based on information that I have available to me. I personally think that WT was in the wrong from 91-97, since there is no evidence of a FCC certification of any sort for a remote. Again, if somebody has evidence or an older FCC certification that is not listed on FCC's site, let me know and I'll eat crow on it. Again, everybody makes mistakes and should be humble enough to fix it and move on, which everybody has done.

[HaMeR]

Greenside-- I took that as a slam as well. He didn't even try to hide it either. soreloser sure picked his handle well. Thats ahy i posted the link to the new WR call in that thread. Wonder how long it'll take to get that removed. 

[browning204]

Peter, I don't know how to do that multi-quote thing in the same thread so I give it a shot this way.


""but I don't make a habit of stomping and complaining about the owner of WT. I have no reason for allegiance, I'm not paid by anybody and it's my money and time that goes into testing.""

No you don't, I never said that you did but some just cry and cry about it. So Bill called someone a moron? Get over it and grow some balls!!! Peter, we both know people are doing this.

""Sound quality is an item which I have no way of "testing". It's an opinion based on hearing of what comes out of the speakers. I do and will address sound quality on my next round of testing and I can assure you it'll be done fairly as all of my testing has been.""

I understand completely, I was just telling you what people told me. Remember I said that I could be wrong, looks like I was. Thank you for explaining.

""Since you're close to BM, ask him to make me a model that has open access sounds and send me one. I'd like to see the 24bit 48kHz soundfiles that are supposedly in the new WT's. He doesn't have to worry about me stealing the sounds, I already have most of them anyways.""

You know that he just treats me well as he treats most others that I have referred to him well. You know I can't do that!

""I emailed BM awhile back that he could easily protect his sounds and offer a programmable caller by simply storing his sounds in a secure bank and then making a section for programming/adding sounds. It's not rocket science and I'm sure if I sent it to a few of my friends they could write the code to do it.""

Great idea! That would be an awesome caller!

""Do you feel as though my test results were not true? If you think that something I posted was not true, let me know what and I'll address it. Again if you read the test results on PM, you would see that the WT remote had the longest range, what's the problem with that? What is the problem with me posting the FCC information for that matter either?""

I do not think the tests are untrue. I don't think that I ever said that. I could care less about the FCC info. As been discussed here, That was just a scare tactic by another company to use on potential customers.

""I don't see what smoke and mirrors you're talking about, the WT remote had the farthest range at that time. What smoke and mirrors are you talking about? ""

The smoke and mirrors are not from you, sorry if I wrote that wrong. Smoke and mirrors from companies advertising their product. such as "new long range remote" Do they mean the same one that needs the reciever hung on a tree to the transmitter and reciever can communicate??

""Mike,
Let me know how the user can program the 40 channels on that WT remote. If the user can't program it, why is it shown as a feature????? Things like that just chap me.
It is what it is""

Again, you know that I can't do that. I don't know how nor do I care. My remote works fine how I use it.

Peter, as I said before, no attack on you, I was just asking questions as to why and how you did and are gonna do things. I appreciate your comparison and look forward to the next one.

I think you read more into my post than needed to be, again sorry if I didn't write it so it was more clear.

[TheHunt]

Here's an example of what I was referring  to in a prior post.  It's a reply from a staffer concerning the new primos call that will be coming out in the near future. I'm sure it's nothing more than an attempt to turn people away from buying a product from a reputable company, that's in competition to the company he represents.  Maybe not out right but it's sure easy to read between the lines

Very annoying to me.

Welcome to marketing 101.  Microsoft has used this marketing approach for years.  IT professionals call it vaporware.   Your opinion that the product is very toyish.  Well, it could be a first step into getting into the e-caller market.  It it is cheap enough people will buy it.  Will Primos will put a video out and the product will sell.  Will it be the best?  You answered that already!!!   Will it sell, Absolutely. 

Jim

[browning204]

And another thing, THO is right. Where is foxpro? they love getting into dust ups on PM, why haven't the swooped in here to say their peace?

Are they SKEERED?

I am sure one of the Goon squad has forwarded this thread to them!

I want to read their take on the "your gonna go to jail if you buy a WT" issue.

[THO Game Calls]

I think that this has run it's course for me.

I used to have a ton of respect for Rich Cronk -

But one day because of a squabble with another predator hunter, he is no longer telling everyone how great the Minaska Callers are, and instead is extolling the virtues of the Fox Pro.  Where is the credibility?  What about the guys who bought a Minaska in great part because of what Rich Cronk said?  Where are they now?   What do they think?

And now, I have had my service to my country disparaged by a Fox Pro Representative, and a Spokesman for a major predator hunting board.

That is the last straw for me.

Jim Renaud - you should be ashamed of yourself for what you said to me.  I suppose you are because you were not man enough to sign your snide little e mail.

I want to remind you, sir, that you are able to say what you want, when you want to who you want, because assholes like me stood on that wall every day defending your right to do so.    Some gave all, all gave some.  And when you slam one of us, you slam all of us.  

People join the military for a host of reasons, but those who stay, stay because they want too.  They believe in their country, they believe in their freedoms, and they are not afraid to stand up for people like you, even if you do not appreciate what they do or have done.  They will always be there.  For you.  For your family.  Even if you are not there for them.  

I am deeply offended, as all military men and women should be, because of your remarks.  You owe me, you owe all of us, an apology, and you owe us thanks for what we have done to allow you to be the ungrateful man you are.

I shudder to think that Fox Pro shares your feelings.  They have not spoken yet, and their silence over your remarks is deafening.

The Marine Corps Motto is Semper Fidelis.  We used to joke that some days it was Simply Forgot Us.   It is readily apparent in this case that you, and Fox Pro have done just that.

Sleep well tonight Redfrog.  There are rough men and women on that wall, and no matter how you really feel about them, they will remain there, protecting and defending you, your family, your way of life, even if you could give a crap less about them.

Al Woodard
USMC Retired
And DAMN PROUD OF IT.

[coyote101]

I am deeply offended, as all military men and women should be, because of your remarks.  You owe me, you owe all of us, an apology, and you owe us thanks for what we have done to allow you to be the ungrateful man you are. - Al Woodard

As a military retiree, I too am offended by the remark.  To disparage  the man's service as a means of insulting him is childish,  despicable and beneath contempt.  You should be ashamed.

Ralph P. Lageman
CW4 (Ret)
US Army

[Rich]

"I used to have a ton of respect for Rich Cronk -

But one day because of a squabble with another predator hunter, he is no longer telling everyone how great the Minaska Callers are, and instead is extolling the virtues of the Fox Pro.  Where is the credibility?  What about the guys who bought a Minaska in great part because of what Rich Cronk said?  Where are they now?   What do they think?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Al,

I couldn't care less about what you think of me. You have never seen me post one single negative thing about Minaska or the callers they make. Minaska makes good callers, and I have said that many times. People who know me will always hold my credibility very high. They know my word is good, and I refuse to lie for anyone. You have a thin skin which causes you to say things nasty about people. That is why I am  letting everyone know that I do not consider you as a reasonable man. I am not sure why FoxPro hasn't posted on this thread, but I can guess. The folks at FoxPro are honest businessmen who try to always take the high road. They know that with  unreasonable people like you over here, any honest statement that they may make over here would be a waste of valuable time. I just wasted my time in typing this message too, but at least my real friends will see that your big tough "I am a Marine" talk does not scare me.

[Uncle Jay]

Wow! 15 pages!
Jim, you should charge admission for this thread and sell passwords to open it.
It has it all.  Suspense, drama, comedy, conspiracy, GOON SQUADS...CRAP!

Goon Squads?  Sounds like a Spontaneous Assumption to me. I guess that includes me too. 
I'll freely admit that Cronk is borderline goon, but that's only because I know him.  Most of the others I can't say for sure because I never met them.

I've met the Borelands in person and have nothing bad to say about them.  .  I visited with them and Burnham at the Shot Show this year.  Don't have any of their products so I can't say one way or another anything about their product.  I'll just have to assume that they have fine products  from everything I read and what I have heard firsthand from actual owner.

I've talked to Mr. WT twice on the phone (during the Shade Tree days) and found him a little too "New Yorkish" for my tastes.  I have hunted behind his units on a few different occassions but could not say they were any better than a hand call.  I'm not a fan of louder is better.

I've hunted behind many ecallers over the years.  They ALL work (as do all handcalls - except the Olt T-20) and the great thing about the variety is that there is one out there within your affordable price range.

Keep the thread alive.

[snowcamoman]

Browning, THO, Anybody,
No offense taken at all on anything. I think we've all said what we needed and I'll step out from any other issues going on at the moment.

I do want thank anybody out there who has served or is currently serving our country. 


Uncle Jay,
I like your sense of humor.

Let the Good Threads Roll

[browning204]

I do want thank anybody out there who has served or is currently serving our country. 




Let the Good Threads Roll

Damn straight!! We owe our lives and freedoms and so do others around the world to AMERICAN Military