tonights stand

[HaMeR]

Thanks CC.    The idea of a coyote coming on every stand is what keeps me going.    I hope I'm there when Bill connects for the 1st time & when VV smacks anuther one. 

[alscalls]

I found the pic on WestVirginia Sportsman and that guy claimed he shot those yotes
I gave up trapping a while back......But I have helped some kids get into trapping and I know a little.
No left field here, I think they have marks on thier legs...............and
I am 43 and know enough to make me happy.LOL

[browning204]

:  Now I defy anybody to come forward with the numbers I've put up here & tell me they are worse than me. 

DUDE, I so got you beat!


I had this conversation the other day with some one and MAYBE THO will back me up. While burning yard waste in my fire pit, we  gotta play ring around the rosy to avoid the smoke. Any day any time any season it is like this. While watching my stack from the woodstove I notice the same thing 30 feet in the air. The smoke predominatly blows out in the north west direction but will change for short burst alot with in minutes. sometimes it will change and hold for a while then change again.

POINT? I find it, in my newbie, wet behind the ears, "should spend more time in the woods to learn" self that it is VERY hard to play the wind around here.

any ways, sorry to high jack the thread.

p.s. JRB did you ever get that wood stove that you were lookin for?

[HaMeR]

 :roflmao: :roflmao: It aint so lonely at the bottom now is it??

[THO Game Calls]

Browning204   

There is a scientific reason why smoke follows you around a fire.


~ from the RV Traveler magazine ~

Given the absence of, or very low wind, the campfire creates rising air and smoke. This creates a partial vacuum
(low pressure area) at the ground level of the fire with air moving in to fill the vacuum. If you are the only one standing
or sitting near the fire, you will block air from arriving to the fire from your position. Because air will enter the fire from
all unblocked sides, your area will be of lower pressure than the other, unblocked areas. The rising smoke will seek the
low-pressure area to move toward. This low pressure area will be where you are standing or sitting. This applies to
multiple people as well -- if everyone tries to 'get away' from the smoke, it will move toward them all because they
are blocking the inflow. It's hard to win against nature!"

To understand how wind currents work in heavily forested areas, you should spend some time on the net, and while you are at it, look at how water flows in a river.  It is similar to how the hills ridges and woods affect the wind.

Wind is rarely a problem here if you know how to use it and as long as you are not hunting in wide open spaces like on some of the farms with big fields. 

Also keep in mind that what is going on 50 feet above your head may not be what is going on at ground level.

Al

[weedwalker]

Al,
To get back on topic, would you put the e-caller on the low pressure side of the fire, or the high pressure side?

And Big Ben, sorry about the hi-jack of your thread.

Ed

[THO Game Calls]

Ed,

That's a tough one to answer.   While I don't have any hard engineering type facts to back it up, allow me to BS you.  My experience tells me that the placement of any e caller or other sound producing device around a camp fire is more dependant on the type of fire retardant material the fire watchers are imbibing in than the wind. 

In some cases, setting the caller or device too close to the fire is not recommended as it could cause an unsafe situation where as the fire watching participants, in an effort to escape the smoke following them around said fire could trip and fall into the fire, which could break the caller or device, and depending on when this happened, the fire watchers may not be sufficiently loaded with fire retardant material to put you out.   And even if they were, well, I don't know which would be worse, being burned or hosed off by a bunch of drunk coyote hunters.

On the other hand, setting the caller or device too far away, say like on the tree line, is also not recommended as sooner or later, the talk always seems to turn to misting, and if on the tree line, the caller or device is subject to being misted upon.

Based on these two scenarios, I believe, and again, I am not a scientist or an engineer, but I believe that the caller or device should be placed in an elevated position near, but far enough away from the camp fire so as not to be a trip hazard, and so that those who wish to try the misting technique can do so and use the excuse of walking over to change sounds as an excuse so they will not be noticed to have left the circle of fire watchers and can therefore go mist in private and peace and not be heckled by others.  This elevated position also serves to keep fire watching participants from inadvertently toppling over and maybe even falling into the fire as they bend down to change sounds.  I don't know what causes this toppling, but in the past, I have blamed it on the low pressure created as in the above post being stronger than expected.  Which is why I posted the above.  It is always best to be able to explain things with a scientific or engineering type explanation as it makes you look smart even if it is all BS.

These are of course just theories, and perhaps more testing needs to be done.  Perhaps a real world test could be made at the LBL this year and an article written up for the Journal of Coyote Hunting otherwise known as PreatorXtreme and published for all to reed.

If this is done, a large number of participants and several different types of fire retardant chemicals need to be on hand to make it a fair and unbiased report,

Al

[browning204]

What if the fire was "trapped" or some how contained before the positioning of said caller??   :roflmao:

OK sorry, just had to make an attempt at a joke.

As for the fire statement, This does not happen only when we are standing around it, while burning and I am collecting other things to burn, it happens as well.

How do you explain the chimney smoke? I am I standing near it creating a void 25 feet in the air?

I just think it is hard to play the wind around here.

Oh, I have a stream in my back yard, i will go watch it and maybe it will answer some of my many questions about life. 

[nastygunz]

B204, throw a pebble into the water and then by ascertaining the action of the ripples in the water you can achieve that which you seek 
                                                   The Dalai Nastygunz

[THO Game Calls]

Actually Browning, watching the stream might not be a bad idea.

Wind currents flow much like the water in the stream.   When the water hits a rock, it does not go through it, it goes around it.   The wind will do the same thing.  To an extent.   

The water will also bounce back and create a dead area right in front of the rock, trout fishermen know this a pretty good place to put a fly as current there is calm, but if you look closely the water actually goes backwards at times behind the rock.  Wind works the same way.  That is why a hunter in a tree stand on the very edge of a field with the wind blowing right at him, may spook a deer with his scent out in the field.  The wind hits the trees and bounces back out into the field a bit.

I said if you spent some time in the woods you would learn more than reading on this or any other board.  It's true.  We have prevailing winds here.   The more time you spend in the woods, the more you will understand how the wind affects the area you are hunting, so that when you have a specific wind condition, you will have a better idea of how the wind will be acting where you want to hunt, and you can either choose to hunt that spot or go to another one.

I also said that what is happening 25 or 30 feet above your head, may not be what is happening on the ground.   Use the chimney to teach you a lesson.

Get a marabou feather and tie a piece of sewing thread to the stem.  Tie that onto a stick.  Stand there and watch the smoke out of the chimney and your feather.  Chances are, they will react differently.   The marabou feather on a thread is widely used by traditional bow hunters as a cheap and very effective wind gauge.  It works.  I have one on my walking stick for just this reason.

It's also helpful to know how the sun affects thermals in the area you hunt.  Hot air rises.  Cool air sinks.   This is a huge factor in the mountains and valleys, and it can cause wind currents in fields also. 

You can learn to play the wind in New Hampshire by learning a little bit about how it works.   I was not being a wise guy.   Sometimes, sitting just below the crest of a ridge, looking down into a creek bed, even with a pretty good wind at your back, will leave the area scent free.  Sometimes getting on one side or the other of a mountain will lesson the wind effect here too.  Or a big tree line.   

I have no doubt that a guy could pick up a call or e caller and go sit in the woods with no regard for anything and eventually kill a coyote.   But when you get out more, and understand the areas you are hunting, you will be able to say

"the coyote is going to come here, he is going to stop here" and then, all you have to do is be able to shoot straight.

Remember that day? 

Even if the wind is blowing south to north there, it makes no difference because you are down below the crest of the land, and there is a big forest behind you.   Your scent goes right over the trail.   I have killed deer there from a tree stand and the ground as well as coyotes.  The wind is not going to blow those trees over, nor is it going to follow the dips and drops in the land.   It will somewhat, but not a great deal.   If you sat in that spot long enough, you would find that even on very very windy days, the eagles still fly up and down that drainage and just glide  - they are out of the buffeting currents because of the lay of the land.

If the wind on the ground was always swirling around, the coyotes and other animals that rely on their noses would go nuts.  There are patterns that you can learn and then use in the areas you hunt.  That is why I said if you get out more you will do better.   A million words wont ever take the place of a few days in the woods.

That's how guys find honey holes.   Not by reading internet boards, but by hunting,  And that is how guys can take you out and tell you that the "the coyote is going to come here, he is going to stop there" and you see it happen. 

It doesn't always work out the way you want it too.  But by learning what is happening in the areas you hunt, you will be much better off even in a new area. 

Do a google search on thermal wind currents.  There are some really good articles on some of the bow hunting sites that will really drive the point home and help you.   

It's not a Zen thing, watching the stream.   Open your mind.  That's a Zen thing.

Al
 

[THO Game Calls]

And for Nastygunz -

The pebble in the water is another great learning tool for hunters in big woods.  And it has nothig to do with Zen either.

You are the pebbel.  And the rings that move outward from it are the effects you have on the woods around you.   

You alert the birds  first ring   who alert the squirrles  second ring, who alert other animals  third ring and on and on.  Everything is connected in the woods.   Don't ever think for one moment that there aren't 1000 eyes on you the minute you step off the trail.   If animals will come to ambiant sounds, as was discussed in this very thread, then they can certainly be alerted by ambiant sounds too.  How often are we as hunters alerted to a coyote coming by a bird or squirrel squaking?   It's a two way street and the pebble in the water is a great way of teaching that. 


Al

[nastygunz]

What a "pool" of knowledge 

[THO Game Calls]

You know, I've visited your web page, such as it is, and read some of your writings.  Very nice.  I am quite sure we know a lot of the same people.   Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I know who gave you the casting lesson up at Archery Pond, and the muskrat fly.   You might have even seen me up there a time or two.  Not so much fishing, but shooting the long bow on the practice butts.

I was the guy who pushed the moron off the wood pier over the outflow tube into the pond one day for being a wise ass to Ernie and Doug.

That wasn't you was it?   

Al

[browning204]

very nice Al, thanks.

My stream joke was just that.

Good reading in this thread

[weedwalker]

Al,
Thanks for all the info on fire pit caller placement. It will come in handy at the LBL. Many of our stands are of that type of a set-up, around a fire.
And very good points on the misting. That is also a widely used technique at the LBL too. A hunter has to really be on his game though as some tend to fall asleep in the misting zone.

Ed

[THO Game Calls]

 :roflmao:

[Jrbhunter]

I actually DID donate a few calls to JRB's site, and I may have talked to him over on the HuntSeek board a few years ago. I don't recall talking with JRB over there, but it is certainly possible. I had an enjoyable online trading of calling techniques with JRB and others on his Indiana site for awhile.  JRB is actually pretty knowledgeable about coyote calling.

I had forgotten about discussions on the Indiana Site- but you WERE there as well.  The calls I was referring too went to a calling contest at a local fur buyer.  Small gig, 6 guys blew calls, and I ended up receiving the prizes from Dan Thompson just two days before the contest.  The Howler you donated to MPH was fairly recent (2 yrs) and went to someone who won a contest on there.  Thanks again for your support there.

I don't know when or where he picked up the idea that it is a good idea to place the call behind him where he can't see it, but it really surprised me to learn that JRB actually swallowed that notion.

I thought I had made myself clear, but I’ll try again.  On a very small percentage of the stands I make… stands in thick cover… when hunting alone… I PERSONALLY found it advantageous for me to be between the sound source and the coyotes likely approach route.   Let’s not complicate this- we’re now talking about 5 stands a year… maybe 10… out of hundreds.   We’re talking about a concept I devised for lack of something better, and surprisingly ole’ CCP has been doing it for years with great success himself.  Others have as well- I know only because they’ve emailed and called and pm’d telling me how far off base you are with your “ROCK SOLID” theory that the caller cannot be placed behind a shooter.    This is not a JRB thing- this is a tactic used by several successful hunters in the East and probably a dozen or more fellas reading this thread do it at one point or another every season.   This is not Cronk vs. Jrb – this is guys who know kill coyotes using a method versus a guy 600 miles away that thinks differently.   Period.

I didn't back myself into a corner with a 300 Kentucky coyotes remark though. I only stated that I know an old guy down in Kentucky who has probably called and killed more coyotes already this fall than the great JRB has called in his entire career. Now understand that JRB is just a 26 year old kid, so his career can't be all that long of a time period.

My career is very short, only 10 years.   Your statement was very bold- so let’s not walk wide circles around it.  You said there is a man in Kentucky that has probably killed more this fall than I have in my career- so where is he and what are his numbers?  Has he killed 100 coyotes since September 22nd (First day of fall)?  Has he killed 50?   Has he killed even 25 in those 16 days?  I have serious doubts- so I’d like you to validate your claims and speak up here.  Otherwise, it’ll look like you painted yourself into a corner and are hoping we’ll ignore that statement.

Things are mighty different in real face to face conversations than you see while sitting behind a key board. 

This is something I have never understood- why in the hell would things be different in a face to face meeting?   It just blows me away how many guys will make this comment… then walk up and shake my hand and discuss coyotes at one function or another.  It’s asinine to think that I would type something here that I wouldn’t say to your face, or on the phone Mr. Cronk, because there is a very reasonable chance that we will meet in the not too distant future.  I am a very easily accessible man and I have met probably a dozen folks who have made that “face to face” claim and left with a smile and a more often than not a new friend.   As a general rule, I type quickly but proofread thoroughly, so if I said it here… I’d gladly read it back to your face someday.   Hope I get the chance.   Make no mistake about that.

Rich- I know I come across just as you stated.. big head, big ego, full of pride.  Honestly, that's not the case at all... but I'm simply not motivated to come across any other way.  I'm a humble student in this game, and I continue to learn with each discussion like this.  My mind is open to all new ideas and I'll gladly try a handful of new tactics each season that I picked up from guys all across the country.  What you've done here is walked into a discussion on Eastern coyotes and hypothosized that what I "DO" with moderate success simply will never work.   Let's say your toilet continues to run after flushing but you fix it 5 times a day by jiggling the handle... who would I be to sit here 600 miles away and tell you that no amount of handle jiggling will fix a running toilet?  There are tricks to this trade and variables from coast to coast- you are fighting an impossible battle of convincing me that my methods haven't worked in the past.  That's where my confidence comes from- that's where my apparent "ego" or emotional attachment to my method comes from.  I do it, it works, and in no way can you tell me its less than credible advice for Southern Indiana and generally "EASTERN" callers.   Sorry if I offended you- but that's where I'm coming from.



Now, on to other business.

I found the pic on WestVirginia Sportsman and that guy claimed he shot those yotes
I gave up trapping a while back......But I have helped some kids get into trapping and I know a little.
No left field here, I think they have marks on thier legs...............and
I am 43 and know enough to make me happy.LOL

First, I’ll drop a $100 check in the mail to the first guy that can show me the photograph of my truck and my coyotes on a West Virginia Sportsman forum where anyone other than myself claimed to have shot them.  I’ve never been to that site- and nobody else shot them- so I’m willing to bet that Mr. Alscalls is telling another fib like those he’s apparently become notorious for around here.  Disprove my theory and get $100.  Fair enough?

Secondly, if you had ever set a coyote trap, seen a coyote in a trap, much less HELD A COYOTE TRAP you would know that the shin colorations on those coyotes are wayyyyy too high to be markings left from the jaws.  I know, I know, this is elementary logic and I’m stooping way down to bring this up- but it is not only untrue its virtually impossible that those markings would be from a trap.  If you are arguing this- you're either railroading down an agenda or you're completely clueless (which means you lied about your trapping experience).

Factor in that half a dozen credible witnesses that either shot those coyotes, saw them shot or skinned them and your trapping theory is toast.  Add the fact that these photos and accounts of the hunt were supplied by a thid party- and you don’t even know who you’re calling a liar anymore.  Plain and simple- Alscalls has been called out and he has no choice but to post another little smiley icon and hope nobody notices.

p.s. JRB did you ever get that wood stove that you were lookin for?

Yes and no!  I was researching to find the best styles and most efficient designs in hopes of building my own- and I’ve started phase one of that project.  I’m putting a double barrel stove in my shop made from two steel 55gal drums.  The stove for the house has been designed and material set aside but I don’t have the labor hours free in the shop to fabricate it yet.  I have a huge load of 8x8 tieblock stacked in the barn and plenty of hurricane damaged oak to cut up yet… hell it’ll probably be spring before I get it all done.

THO has done a good job of explaining thermal airflow here. I believe the understanding and recognition of those movements is crucial in hunting the terrain many Eastern hunters work with.  One factor he seems to have omitted in his campfire diaries- is where to position the dead coyotes from a days hunting.   Can’t imagine why that didn’t come up… don’t drink downstream of the herd and don’t sit downwind of the killpile.  They must not’ve pumped that edition of Predator Extreme up to you Yankee’s yet.  ;) 


First stand I’ve made this fall was 7am this morning… called three- killed this big chunky male.  I’ll give THO and Browning204 a full week COMBINED to match those numbers.  Anybody want to take odds?   :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:  You guys are too much fun!

[Rich]

Jrb: "My career is very short, only 10 years.   Your statement was very bold- so let's not walk wide circles around it.  You said there is a man in Kentucky that has probably killed more this fall than I have in my career- so where is he and what are his numbers?  Has he killed 100 coyotes since September 22nd (First day of fall)?  Has he killed 50?   Has he killed even 25 in those 16 days?  I have serious doubts- so I'd like you to validate your claims and speak up here.  Otherwise, it'll look like you painted yourself into a corner and are hoping we'll ignore that statement."
--------------------------------------------
He is a member of this board, and has posted photos of several coyotes that he called and killed already this season. I won't reveal his name because although we ain't the best of friends he doesn't need to hear your unending rants.  You just shot your first coyote of the season yesterday?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/DriftersCoyote.jpg

The Kentucky guy is way ahead of ya son.  :roflmao:

[Jrbhunter]

He is a member of this board, and has posted photos of several coyotes that he called and killed already this season. I won't reveal his name because although we ain't the best of friends he doesn't need to hear your unending rants.  You just shot your first coyote of the season yesterday?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/DriftersCoyote.jpg

The Kentucky guy is way ahead of ya son.  :roflmao:

First, my season hasn't even begun (7 days away) so no that is not my first coyote of the season thats why I said FALL.  It's a preseason kill.  Secondly I killled the coyote TODAY.  That's two examples of your reading comprehension in one sentence Rich.   Calm the emotions down and read carefully.

Please do not lose focus of the question here either Rich- has he killed 100 in 16 days?  Has he killed 50 in 16 days?  Hunters in states that have no seasons or seasons that open before mine are obviously expected to be "way ahead of me" since I'm 7 days from even starting.   I have no issue with believing the guy kills far more than I do... a lot of folks do... I just wanted to see you stand behind your statement.   Anyone that says they're averaging killing 10-20 coyotes a day in Kentucky is probably using fuzzy numbers like the guy who said he called 18 adults on one stand and lost track of how many they killed.

[KySongDog]

JRB has already admitted he's not here to make any friends.  He's here to tell lies and more lies and piss people off.  

Let's see how he spins and lies his way out of this one.

Have at it, JRB.  Tell us a another good 'un.