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after a dismall weekend of calling upstate pa I decided I had to hit a spot I knew had critters in.  I headed to a local state forest that I had planned to hunt hard last year but never did.  main reason is the use it gets.  there are alot of horseriders hikers walkers along with hunters that use this area.  I headed to a area I had planned on hunting at night but since it was daytime I set the decoy and call up at a intersection in the road.  the red circle with black dot was where the call was setup.  blue dots where aproach.  the wind was coming straight at me in the face.  the green dot is where I sat to watch the setup.  I was setup in the bottom of a valley.the stream which is right in the center of the green pine trees is about 150 yds to my south east.  I started out with some rabbit distress and waited about twenty minutes later I started in on grey fox pup and then switched out to grey fox n coon fight.  I pretty much just wanted to call something in.  a pick me up in my confidence more then anything.  well sure nuff there is a hollow that runs north west of the caller and continues south east down to the strem and I kind of makes a area with 5 points.  I hear some flickers raisin cain up the north west hollow.  it swung to the western white line which is a very well maintained logging path.  then started in and got about 50 yds away from the call.  I could really only make out the top part of his body.  he pretty much just stayed there.  My best guess he was either called before or just did not care to inspect the decoy.  the call was not running but I am sure if I would have changed the sound to a squeeker or so the lil fella would have wanted to play.  my problem is I could not really get  a shot at him unless he would have got to the call.  how would you have setup?  after about 5 minutes of sitting there he decided he had seen enough and walked back up the hollow he had came from.  when I got up to get the call and such I heard him givin me the devil.  I was hopin he was allready far enough away to not see me but all well.  tell me what you guys think?

(http://www.bigbenshaus.com/callin.jpg)

I'm interested in the responses you'll get to Ben.

I like hunting logging roads in the thick the coyotes don't have as many options.

Here is my take on your setup. The caller is were you want him to checkup at but, the caller is there so he will check up on one of the other roads. Before you see him and it will give him to much time to react to what is going on.


In the first pic here it gives him a place to checkup in the curve of the road before preceding on. Perfect place for a shot.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Plumbrich/callincopy.jpg)


Second pic lets the coyote come down either road and checkup at the fork which is another place for a good shot.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Plumbrich/callin2copy.jpg)


I believe your setup does not give the coyote a place to check up so you can see him before he comes through the woods. More than likely the coyote came up the road checked up when he got closer then went back into the woods.  He then had all the time in the world to bust you or get spooked and leave.

Dont worry about the caller being behind you. If a coyote comes in from that direction as soon as he hits the road and smells where you walked in you want have time to shoot anyway. Only time I look in the direction where I walk in is when hunting cats.

I just want to add I was not hunting foxes.  so I would not have took the shot.  fox does not come in till later in the season.  but if I wanted to take a shot it woulda been a head shot through grass.  I cannot see your pics here at work CCP so I will wait till I get home I just wanted to point out the fox deal.  I coulda seen that would have got bad quick if it was took the wrong way. 

Nice job ccp.

man that is gonna be odd havin the call behind.  me I will give it a try a lil later in the season.  what about setting the call in front of me about 20 yds staying back fromthe intersection around 50 yds?  not doubtin ya but would that work?  in a perfect world where I would have had another shooter I would have set one looking up the western road and me on the other side of the tree lookin up the northeastern road.  the guy watchin the western road would be good with a rifle.  you can see atleast 100 yds up it before you cannot see over the crest.  the other way it is only about 30 yds till the road bends.

here is another scenario.  same intersection only walkin in the western road.  this road goes about 300 yds up the mountian to a major highway over the mountian.  park there and walk in.  would you still set the call up behind ya or keep it at the intersection of the three roads and two valleys?

.

bigben,

I really suck at reading topo maps, so I can't tell what kind of terrain you are hunting. I see the line of trees next to the path you walked in on, and what looks like a stream to left of the path. What I can tell you is that I would personally NEVER  setup with the E caller behind me.  I haven't called with the wind in my face for a long time now either. I want the caller out there where I can see it, because the caller is where any predator is headed. Coyotes love to come in down-wind of the sound in attempt to get a whiff of the screamer. I set the caller cross-wind when ever possible, and I watch down-wind.

all I can tell ya al is me or anyone that I hunt with would not take a shot if we did not think it was safe.  it wouldn't be any safer shooting with a shotgun if you put it in the same scenario.  I would set the shooter up as that any bullet would travel through a animal it would have a safe back stop.  I am sure you had good intentions but I am not that much of a idiot.  sorry. 

;

I was just stating my opinion please keep it.  it is something that needs brought up every now and then.  but I had hoped that some would have known that I wouldn't have took the shot if it was not safe. 

bigben,

I knew that all along.  :roflmao:

';

BigBen: I'd have to agree with Rich Cronk and CCP on this deal.  I always try to place the ecaller where I am likely to see the spot the coyote stops to take a looksee. Sort of making him pay for the privilege. Same goes for sampling the wind-make him pay for the privilege.  I find that the coyote nearly always wants to gain that vantage point where he can see where the sound is coming from, regardless of whether he is coming from downwind, upwind, or someplace in between. I sure don't want the ecaller behind me anytime.  I assumed you would always take a safe shot or no shot at all. Good hunting at ya.

'

THO,

BigBen would never shoot at anything standing on the crest of a hill. Not even on private property. Neither would anybody else that has common sense. I know Bigben, he has broke bread with me, right here in my home. That is why I know he is much too wise to shoot a bullet over a hill top. I hope this explanation clears up your fears. Calm down Al, everything is well here.

ya know what it aint worth it.  I was gonna explain to al how I would setup but if I get time this weekend I will run up in the truck and video it.  they are supposed to have the gates open by then.  I seen your prior posts before you deleted em al and I understand the consequences and why it is not good to shoot over a hill.  like I said I aint stupid.  I am young but not that stupid.  until next time al see ya.

I'm curious as to why you would NEVER put the call behind you ?

QuoteI'm curious as to why you would NEVER put the call behind you ?

  me too. :confused:

hey I will try anything a few times.  I understand CCP's thinkin on this and it does make sense.  the only thing it would scare me of is a grey that gets bold and goes to the call instead of comin the way ya want em to.  of course ya can't kill em all.

Guys,,
When a critter comes in to investigate the screams, he may well come in from behind you. If you have the caller behind you, the critter may stick his nose right in the speaker but you won't see it happen.

I agree with Rich. Someone always needs to be watching the caller because that is where the action will end up most times. I have two personal rules when hunting with an ecaller. I can always see the speaker and I never retrieve the caller without a gun in my hand.

Randy

Quotewhat about setting the call in front of me about 20 yds staying back from the intersection around 50 yds?

Ben let me give you an example maybe it will help.


I used to kill coyotes for alot of watermelon farmers when I lived in FL. Alot of these places were new clear cuts with pine groves at the far end. The pine groves would usually be several thousand acres and to thick to hunt other than old logging roads and fire breaks.

I would only kill 10 or 15 coyotes in these roads but new there were more coyotes to be had. In my regular hunting around fields I would notice coyotes coming for a long distance on a run. Once they reached a certain distance from the sound were they felt safe they would stop for a moment and start to circle (usually around 150 to 200 yards). Taking that knowledge, I knew coyotes did the same in the woods they run in to a certain distance and then try to get a visual and then circle(usually 60 to 80 yards).

Using that observation I began setting up around 60 to 80 yards of a bend or rise in the roads. I started killing more coyotes. Then in 1987 an old plumber friend wanted to go with me on these watermelon raiders. I would set him up around the bend or over the rise and I would call around 60 or 80 yards from him.. He killed around 60 coyotes in two watermelon seasons like this. I never seen the coyotes only would hear the shot. I did have a few bobcats come out on me during this time. This is why I don't use this setup hunting bobcats.

I got a foxpro around 2004 or 05 and when by myself would set the foxpro up where I would have normally sat and I would sit where I would have normally set someone else and continue this to this day. If I get a call for a problem coyote I always set my shooter 60 or so yards in front of me toward where I believe the coyote to be at. Reason is when hunting problem coyotes I always use hand calls.

Here is another way of looking at it. If you have scouted and have a good idea of where the coyotes are and feel good about your setup, when using hand calls do you continually turn 90 degrees to look behind you? If not then why do you need to with the E-caller?

Ben when you read about other peoples hunts on the internet that hunt open fields they usually say something along these lines. The coyote came into around 150 to 200 yards and wouldn't come any closer and I shot him. Now think they do the same in the woods now what can a person do to close that distance?

Like Aaron says some coyotes will come bolting in with no caution to the wind but we aint setting up for them there coming no matter how you setup in most cases. I don't know about you but we don't have many coyotes that come running in a lot or out in the wide open areas. So we do some things different than the norm. If you do have alot of coyotes and they always come bolting in then DON'T set the caller behind you keep it in front of you where you can see it. If you have more than 1 in 20 coyotes bust you from behind then it is not the calling it is in how you are setting up.



The 14 yard coyote clip on youtube we have the caller 60 yards behind us and to the right. Nothing but big open field back there.

The white colered coyote in the video had the caller behind us 60yards and 60yards to our left. There was nothing but highway and a house past the caller so we knew nothing was coming from that direction.


Putting the caller behind you is not good on all setups but is a good tool in some situations logging roads being the best  situation. One other thing make sure there is not a game trail leading out of the thick woods on that section and you have a good cross wind. Of course in all good setups we know where all the game trails are from our pre scouting of the area.

Find a friend and one of you stay with the caller and the other up the road around a bend or over a rise the direction of where you think the coyote is and see. You maybe surprised at what you find.

Sorry so long Ben if you are still curious give me a call i will make you up a DVD on how to setup like this.

BigBen: As you can see, there are different strokes for different folks.  Never is a long time where coyote hunting is concerned, but I would never want to put the ecaller behind me.  I might have to some time if the situation dictates it, but in the big majority of circumstances, I want to see all around the ecaller.  In my opinion, you are giving up a valuable part of the ecaller when you give up the backside by placing the caller behind you.  Of course if you are hunting with a buddy, you aren't necessarily leaving the ecaller unwatched.  Like CCP, I wouldn't be looking behind me when using a mouth call, but I have been busted from the blind side plenty of times when hunting alone using hand calls.  That is one of the biggest advantages to a well placed ecaller, being able to watch all directions from the sound.  You will gain experience in the setups as time goes on, which is the most important element in coyote hunting to my way of thinking.

Great thread guys!  Keep it going.  I'm learning.

Jim

Today frogman and I put the e-caller between us and it was to both our backs. he was watching east and I was watching West on a dozered road..........I had a grey fox come in (blue dots, path he took) We can not hunt them yet so I let him get real close........(He stopped on the red arrow)
He started to leave away from me.....(Green arrow) I called him back to the red arrow two more times (About 10 feet from me with a mouth call!!!) All the while the E-caller was too my back, then he went right back on the path of the blue dots and circled around to frogman where he came too him twice.
Frogman and I were about 50 yds. apart and the E-caller between us .......the frog was sporting a shotgun and I a rifle.
I would say anything could work if you set it up right.....But we have all made the same mistakes and learning from those never stops. :wink:
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh123/alscalls/wherewesawagryfox.jpg)

what if you put the Ecaller  behind you but had an obstruction so the coyotes could not get behind you.

Such as having a swamp behind you and the Ecaller between that swamp and yourself. That way the coyote would have to either come in head on or try to flank you and it would leave very little room to get behind you.

I hunt close to the caller out of not being able to see throught the thick woods, Not like I shoot alot of stuff but in my situation, the caller wood be 30 or so yards behind me on the swamps edge.

Make any sense?

Quote from: possumal on October 02, 2008, 06:59:52 PM
I would never want to put the ecaller behind me.  I might have to some time if the situation dictates it, but in the big majority of circumstances, I want to see all around the ecaller.  In my opinion, you are giving up a valuable part of the ecaller when you give up the backside by placing the caller behind you.

In order to never put an e-caller behind you: you'd have to know ALL variables on EVERY single stand before you hit the play button.  Foolishness.   Placement of a caller depends on the conditions given (terrain/weather/ect) along with the likely location of the coyotes your calling and finally including the wind direction and thus, the most likely path of approach.   To say the caller should "never" be "behind" you is inconcievable in calling Eastern coyotes.

Many folks have hard-fast rules about seeing the caller at all times- others want to watch all directions equally.  Personally I am willing to play the odds and give up the occasional coyote that comes in from up-wind to pounce directly on the speaker if it means having a better shot at the 85 coyotes that will sooner circle downwind at a comfortable distance.   I have no bobcat variable here- I have very few active daytime fox- so my woodland calling revolves around coyotes that are fairly predictable in their effort to not step on a sound before smelling it.

Large obstructions like lakes/swamps and cliffs do not necessarily work the way we'd like them too.  You'll probably see tracks all around from their daily grind- but working a call is another story.  Under the stress of working a calling stand they aren't likely to put themselves into a deathtrap inched between a source of anxiety and an impassible object.  The ones that do work into that pinchpoint will be more killable- but you've just knocked the percentage of coyotes willing to work a call down on that stand by sitting where you did.  Rather than using something to make it harder on a coyote- I prefer to leave his options open and make one route easiest.... that being the route to my muzzle.  Weather you're setting a speaker on a wooded hillside or trying to blend a Briger #3 into a flatset- the simple minded coyotes prefers to have options and security before he does the inevitable.

One final thought.... 80' whiteoaks and 36" goldenrod have one thing in common.  They're both over a coyotes head.  "Thick Cover" has as many definitions as the phrase "Behind You" in coyote hunting.



Left arrow representing a dead coyote... Right arrow representing the primary shooter on a stand.  I killed a coyote just 10/15 yards from the primary shooter because it "backdoored" him and the conventional caller placement which was upwind of him.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/CrpSetup.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/Crpdog2.jpg)




That stand produced that way not just once.... but twice.  Again I picked off a coyote just before he put the puzzle together: using terrain/cover & wind to his advantage he was able to backdoor the most "popular" methods of stand selection. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/coyote2-1.jpg)



Finally by putting the caller "behind" the primary shooter... he sniped an old 50 pound male at close range.  No more mop-work for me on this stand... caller placement changed the way we kill coyotes here.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/coyote3-1.jpg)

Very good Jason! Your post always bring stuff to the table!

"Finally by putting the caller "behind" the primary shooter... he sniped an old 50 pound male at close range.  No more mop-work for me on this stand... caller placement changed the way we kill coyotes here."
------------------------------------------------------------
It is this type of bad advice that causes the unknowing newcomer to become confused and often scared away from even trying to learn the proper way to call critters. It is also why I don't give advice on public boards very  much anymore. I have been calling wild critters since JRB was still in diapers, but he is already set himself up as the "all knowing". The development of the remote controlled E caller was meant for the purpose of getting the sound and scent out away from the hunter. Now JRB has stated above that the "traditional" E caller placement is to set the E caller upwind of the hunter. I find that statement foolish and misguided. Doing this means that the all knowing JRB is still practicing the old wind in your face method, which I learned long ago is a very bad idea. He also has not yet figured out that the coyote that circles around  is trying to get down-wind of the screams before final approach. Setting the caller behind you and watching upwind? Maybe JRB should check for fresh coyote tracks down-wind  of where he had been sitting. He just might open his eyes a little bit when he learns how many times he is getting back doored. I am an old fart with no need to prove anything to anybody. My knees are bad, four arteries in my heart have been bypassed and I carry too dang much body fat around. I can't hunt as hard or as long as I once did. I will not allow age to enter in to my quest to learn more about the coyote, nor will I allow the youth an inexperience of Mr. JRB  to influence my opinion of the fellow. Placing the caller behind you  where you can not see it is always a bad idea, period. JRB kills a few coyote that way. I know he does, or he wouldn't have said that he does. What I also know is this. JRB would kill a heck of a lot MORE coyotes if he learns to open his mind. Place the dang caller CROSS-WIND for crying out loud, and watch the DOWN-WIND side at least 90 percent of the time.

Edit: In reading JRB's post, I believe that I misinterpreted  which way he watches according to wind direction. I didn't read it very well beyond the first paragraph. I also believe that he hunts with a pardoner a lot, which makes a huge difference. I stand by my statement that placing the caller behind you where you can't see it is a very bad idea. Someone needs to be watching that area where caller is sitting.

Another thing to consider, in my own personal opinion anyway, is too not bank too much of your strategy on the actions of called in Grey Fox.
Those things have to be the dumbest creatures on earth. They will bang their head on the barrel of your rifle, run under your truck, run across your legs, run away and then come back and do it all again. :wink:

I need more greys around here !!  :biggrin:   

Randy Buker (Hunting the Night Shift) used to call them ego boosters. :laf:

I haven't read all the post but ,hear is my take,
I cant tell by the photo just how I would go about calling it, if I could see the photo zoomed way out to where I could see more of the terrain I could  better tell how I would go about calling it.
But to me after reading what the hunter did just make me think this,  some time your get to bust a primer and sometimes you don't, I don't think you did anything wrong, just got out witted by the critter. witch i feel happens to most of us most of the time .
everyone knows I am a big believer in staying as far out of the critters territory  as possible when calling coyotes here in eastern PA,, I would of went 25 yards of the road and called, I like doing this for many resins. first let me say this  I would most likely only stopped in the area if the wind is right,with the wind  coming out to the road or a cross wind coming from the direction I think the critter will approach . Since my thinking has let me down so many times on where I think they should come from I now fined my self calling spots when the wind is bad, they  the critters make mistakes to if they didn't we wouldn't kill as many so by just stopping and calling just off the road it doing a couple thing to help yea out , first being that the noise of a good road can cover many noises you will be making on entering the woods and setting up and also  at the same time the road I find makes a great barrier for them to not wont to cross to try and back door yea or get your sent..I have always thought if you can put a barrier behind you that they don't like to enter or cross the better you be for it. I feel the critter nose that your and my sent equals danger , are woods here are just so USED ,,,Hikers , bikers, walkers fisherman bird watchers mushroom hunter picture takers kids playing and hunters, ask the average person going to the wood how many coyotes or bear they have encountered on there outing?  most likely the answer more times then not will be never.
so staying as far out of the target critters area the better here in northeastern PA
another thing i  keep in the back of my mined is that lots critters meet there demise from car bumpers and die close to the road,so my whimpers of a dyeing rabbit my not be that far from being realistic .
So for me i would try and call that spot if possible,,,,from the least invasive set up i could make.

I haven't put a call behind me wile i was alone, but one trick that works when calling with a partner is to set them up 75 yards out in front of me , and i would call, they would shoot, and lots of time this has worked well with are hard to kill coyote , they are busting me on thier last one or two times they check up to try and locate the sound, in the right situation and a good shooter out in front of the caller this setup  can help shooter get a shot off and crack the cranium of a call shy critter as he looks for the location of my cry's. if you think you know witch way the critter fox or coyote will enter the area i think a guy calling alone could possibly trick the critter and kill him as he checks up to look for the call thats x amount of yards behind yea,, i guess that's one of the perks of a remote and a electronic call you can put it way back behind yea and work it on and off... now doing this with a good barrier behind you would work even better.

I don't think the hunter from what his map shows did anything wrong , sometime you get and sometimes you don't :biggrin:

sorry about my bad writing skills

Quote from: FinsnFur on October 03, 2008, 10:12:07 PM
Randy Buker (Hunting the Night Shift) used to call them ego boosters. :laf:

All I was trying to point out was......ya never really know what is going to happen on any particular stand. Ya just should never stop trying to learn from the good and the bad, and give it your best effort........Like the coyote does you. :wink:

Oh I agree 100% Al.
Coyotes dont have a written reference to refer to, so they know how to respond to the call. Ya just never know what will happen. :wink:

And dont get me wrong. When a Grey shows up to my calling, I still enjoy it :eyebrownod:

Quote from: Jrbhunter on October 03, 2008, 08:33:57 AM
I killed a coyote just 10/15 yards from the primary shooter because it "backdoored" him and the conventional caller placement which was upwind of him.

When dealing with coyote behavior I try to avoid saying never and you guys can put the caller any where you want, it don't make a damn to me,

BUT I can assure you of one thing... if anyone was ever stupid enough to let off a shot, aimed anywhere in my direction, I can guarantee it would never happen again.


Foolishness does not even start to describe that type of behavior.  :doh2: :argh: :mad3: :mad2:

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.   

Al

Yeah, that shot was was too close to suit me. I don't want the business end of my hunting partner's barrel to be pointed anywhere near me. 

 Me and Aaron don't post our hunts on the internet anymore but found today's hunt to be related to the subject. We are not going to use this so thought we would share it with you bigben maybe it will help you see what we are talking about. It is not a road setup but still should give you an idea of the concept.

The camera see's things in 2D and we see in 3D so keep in mind the distance from us to the wood line across from us is only 70 yards and the coyote was only 40 yards. We scouted and new where the coyotes where holding up so we new the direction the coyote's would come in. There was a coyote behind this one 80yards but was never on camera. We expected the coyote's to come from that direction but stopping on the hill and then work down wind toward the caller leaving us a easy shot. As you can see this coyote came in with the after burners on locked in on the sound. The decoy was on but more than likely it was locked on the sound. We don't have many coyotes and they are pressured here so we don't get to see many run in hard like this.

P.S.
Ben, Aaron's shooting has greatly improved this season so don't hold this one hunt against him. :laf:  In his and Mike's defense they were shooting through a old blow down didnt expect to have to be shooting this quick there were pieces of old tree limbs going everywhere. :roflmao:

Time on stand till the coyotes came in 51 seconds.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Plumbrich/th_clipforben1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Plumbrich/?action=view&current=clipforben1.flv)

"HE COME BOLTIN!!!!   :roflmao:

That was pretty cool fellas. Hope that helps you out Ben.

One more thing Ben..........NEVER shoot in the general direction of your partner unless a bear is fixing to eat him.  :wink:
My partner has been hunting them since 1973 and I don't believe he has ever seen a situation where you need to shoot towards your partner.  :eyebrownod:

"There was a coyote behind this one 80yards but was never on camera. We expected the coyote's to come from that direction but stopping on the hill and then work down wind toward the caller leaving us a easy shot. As you can see this coyote came in with the after burners on locked in on the sound."
---------------------------------------------------
CCP,

I want to be sure that I understand this setup. The caller was 100 yards or so down-wind of you guys? When I look at the video clip, the wind is blowing on your right shoulder then?  All three of you were pretty close to each other while watching the clearing for coyotes?  Was there someone  back near the caller to whack any coyotes that may come in from down-wind?

CCP, What path did you take to put out the call?
How did you or did you use scent?
How were you sure the coyote would come from that direction?
I am curious cause we sometimes set up very similar.
Tell that feller not to sweat it too hard we have all been there and done that.....Those dogs can be flat tough.

QuoteThe caller was 100 yards or so down-wind of you guys?

It was up wind at an angle.

QuoteAll three of you were pretty close to each other while watching the clearing for coyotes?

Yes while filming we set beside of each other as one. I run the camera and do the calling and try to show people how we would setup as a single person. We happened to have another person with us this morning and let them have a shotgun.

QuoteWas there someone  back near the caller to whack any coyotes that may come in from down-wind?

The wind was blowing from the caller out into the field at an angle. Down wind of the caller would be in the field about where the coyote was when the first shot was fired.


I wish this coyote had not have come in so hard. Usually the coyotes around here are seasoned to people shooting at them. In a a case of normal coyotes around here it would have ran down the field until it was around 150 yards from the caller. Then checked up on the hill to try and get a visual.(50 Yards from us) Then angled down the edge of the fence line. If it had done that it would have went right in front of us on the point before moving back out into the field to get down wind of the caller.

QuoteCCP, What path did you take to put out the call?

We dropped it off 100 yards from where we were going on the way in to the set.

QuoteHow did you or did you use scent?

None, we just always try to setup where the coyote doesn't come from the direction we walk.

QuoteHow were you sure the coyote would come from that direction?

From scouting you can tell where a coyote goes during the day the hardest part is finding what day they are on the certain piece of property.

QuoteTell that feller not to sweat it too hard we have all been there and done that.....Those dogs can be flat tough.

He was pretty tore up about it. He had some 2-3/4 #1 buckshot I had some 3inch #1 in the truck and he took them instead. He setup a target when he got home at 40 yards and said they were shooting higher. I think he shot more behind it but I have missed my share  through the years.

Quote from: Rich on October 03, 2008, 08:52:12 PM
It is this type of bad advice that causes the unknowing newcomer to become confused and often scared away from even trying to learn the proper way to call critters. It is also why I don't give advice on public boards very  much anymore. I have been calling wild critters since JRB was still in diapers, but he is already set himself up as the "all knowing". The development of the remote controlled E caller was meant for the purpose of getting the sound and scent out away from the hunter. Now JRB has stated above that the "traditional" E caller placement is to set the E caller upwind of the hunter. I find that statement foolish and misguided. Doing this means that the all knowing JRB is still practicing the old wind in your face method, which I learned long ago is a very bad idea. He also has not yet figured out that the coyote that circles around  is trying to get down-wind of the screams before final approach. Setting the caller behind you and watching upwind? Maybe JRB should check for fresh coyote tracks down-wind  of where he had been sitting. He just might open his eyes a little bit when he learns how many times he is getting back doored. I am an old fart with no need to prove anything to anybody. My knees are bad, four arteries in my heart have been bypassed and I carry too dang much body fat around. I can't hunt as hard or as long as I once did. I will not allow age to enter in to my quest to learn more about the coyote, nor will I allow the youth an inexperience of Mr. JRB  to influence my opinion of the fellow. Placing the caller behind you  where you can not see it is always a bad idea, period. JRB kills a few coyote that way. I know he does, or he wouldn't have said that he does. What I also know is this. JRB would kill a heck of a lot MORE coyotes if he learns to open his mind. Place the dang caller CROSS-WIND for crying out loud, and watch the DOWN-WIND side at least 90 percent of the time.

Edit: In reading JRB's post, I believe that I misinterpreted  which way he watches according to wind direction. I didn't read it very well beyond the first paragraph. I also believe that he hunts with a pardoner a lot, which makes a huge difference. I stand by my statement that placing the caller behind you where you can't see it is a very bad idea. Someone needs to be watching that area where caller is sitting.

Rich, before you go off with longwinded and attacking replies you should take a moment and read the post your replying too thoroughly.  It appears you're so open minded you might've lost it somewhere.  If I was a "Wind in your face" guy I wouldn't be killing 1/3 of the coyotes I do... and even you've commented on that on different hunting forums last fall.  The crosswind concept was something I explained, with your applause, nearly four years ago... and now you're going to powder my diaper with old news?  My tongue-in-cheek comment about conventional calling stands was meant to stir up some of the more experienced guys: but not with misguided rants and personal attacks. 

Having hunted with a partner extensively for about ten years: I usually give them what we percieve to be the best shot... then get myself "out of the way" and see what develops.  This allows me to pretend the shooter is alone, running his own caller, and I can get a birds eye view of what might've happened to him had I not been there.  Did he get circled? Did a coyote come straight at the caller?  He would've never known on our "one man stands" but because I was there we can document what went down.   THAT'S why I will give up view of the caller when I do hunt alone- because 85/90% of the time a view of the caller was unnecessary in our thick cover stands.  Not always- but usually- it was more productive to be downwind at all costs.   You can't always have it both ways when hunting solo- and a wise caller will choose the most productive method when options run thin.  If seeing the caller meant giving up a logroad 45 yards downwind---- no way I'm going to be looking at a speaker on that stand.

As for shooting close range coyotes, and coyotes remotely close to other hunters, I'll leave that up you fellas to judge since that's apparently what this topic has become.   We all have different amounts of trust in the guys we hunt with and variable levels of fear in our surrounding.  In my wild wrecklessness I've let two guys simultaneously hurl six-barb crankbaits over my head on a 12' johnboat as well.  I've even shot bow competitions indoors with 10 other guys of various abilities occasionally glacing arrows off concrete and metal siding!  I've ridden ATV's without a helmet for years, racecars with no HANS, sat on the bedrails of many trucks and even clung to a rope behind a speeding boat balanced on two wooden planks.  I've climbed a thousand treestands with no harness and swam in a few rivers with no life jacket.  I guess I'm a general maniac amongst this crowd, taking those types of risk.  (Yeah- Right)  :roflmao:    To each their own.  :sneer:

yeah jim I agree grey foxs are ego boosters but when it is runnin around with a 40.00 price tag on him I want that ego booster.  hear what I mean?  coyotes round these parts aren't worth diddly.  heck a nice full thick coon is worth more then coyotes.  I plan on tagetin mainly greys and coon this year along with coyotes when the opportunity presents itself. 

JRB,

If you read my edit, you will see that I already stated that I may have misunderstood which direction you were watching in relation to prevailing wind.  Your practice of placing the caller behind you where you can't see it was so wrong that it caused my emotions to take over. I am pretty sure that you already know the mistake you are making by not watching the area around the caller which is source of the screams. If you want to do that yourself, that is one thing. There are beginners reading the advice given on this forum, and to advise folks to set the caller behind you where you can't see it is wrong.  There are times when placing the caller further away from you can certainly help, but in order to enjoy the best results, you still must keep that sound source in your view. I can only hope that you will think about this subject a bit more.

Ben,

We have a lot of coons around here, a heck of a lot of coons. Sometimes I ponder the idea of calling coons instead of coyotes. That would mean that I would have to skin em though.  :roflmao:

Rich, I'm not sure we're all on the same page here.

We aren't talking about putting a caller 500 yards away in another conrfield... or even across a fencerow just out of sight.  We're not talking about sitting over a ridge from your caller, or facing an entire different direction.  We're not talking about calling open desert, sprawling pastures or open tundra here.

The theory is: in thick cover (Weather it be hardwoods or high CRP) the shooter can not ALWAYS watch the most likely approach route AND the electronic caller at the same time.  Not ALWAYS.  In some cases it is best- undenyably- to put yourself between the soundsource and the coyotes most likely approach even if it means not having visual contact with the caller.

In the event that a hunter is alone, as the only shooter he must put himself in the best possible location to kill the MAJORITY of the coyotes that will respond to that stand.  Yes he will give up an upwind charger on 1 in 75 stands if he cannot see the caller... but by covering the MOST LIKELY approach route in situations where he cannot cover both- he will kill more coyotes with a caller behind him.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear, or maybe you're as clueless on hardwoods calling as you seemed to think I was earlier Rich.  I'm not sure.  This discussion is getting way more complicated than it should be: but pulling coyotes "thru" your position isn't rocket science anymoreso than taking the lesser of two evils and losing eyesight of your caller for a stand here and there.  Both of these practices are common knowledge to succesful elk and turkey hunters even riper in age than Cronk himself- why it's so hard for a predator hunter to grasp is beyond me.


PS: Before your emotions get wound up again- remember that I've done many many stands in this cover with partners which is where my experience of getting circled comes from.   Succesful calling, to me, is a numbers game.  I've seen the percentages in which a caller got circled- and the percentages in which a coyote charged from straight upwind to pounce the caller.  I've seen how hard it is to swing a rifle in the woods, hit moving objects at close range with a rifle, and all the other factors that come into play when hunting this terrain and cover.  I am not basing my tactics on something Murray Burhnam said about West Texas or Rich Cronk said about Iowa- I do what I do because of my success with it.

"The theory is: in thick cover (Weather it be hardwoods or high CRP) the shooter can not ALWAYS watch the most likely approach route AND the electronic caller at the same time.  Not ALWAYS.  In some cases it is best- undenyably- to put yourself between the soundsource and the coyotes most likely approach even if it means not having visual contact with the caller."
---------------------------------------------------------------
JRB,

We are on the same page sir. I agree wih most of your calling methods, but you are dead wrong on your idea of placing the caller behind you where you can't see  the area around it.  Take CCP's video clip stand for instance. He could have placed the caller out in the clearing some 60-80 yards  out front and to his  hard left. The hard charging coyote which was possibly headed for the sound source may have offered a better shot when checking up at the speaker. Now if the coyote was simply running from the hunters he just smelled, maybe a coyote distress yipe or two might have caused said coyote to stop and look back. Either way, the hunters would have seen anything that approached the caller. Since they couldn't see the area around the caller, they don't know how many coyotes came in to check it out.

I've not seen the clip, nor will I engage in nitpicking one stand versus another in a hypothetical dreamworld.   

I would gladly (and have in the past) embrace new ideas or techniques that would help me kill coyotes.  Same goes for abandoning old habits that were costing me coyotes- I've done my fair share of that over the years.   I've gathered information from hundreds of sources yet evolved my style of hunting based on works best for me... and until someone crawls out of the woodwork around here it'll remain the most succesful method for miles and miles and miles around on these hardwoods coyotes. 

Coyote population dynamics, coyote hunting, public ground access, hunting pressure, equipment available and calling in general has changed SIGNIFIGANTLY since your prime Mr. Cronk.... much less in an area 600 miles EAST of your experience zone.  You're talking apples and oranges with your cookie cutter phylosopies.  As it pertains to hunting Eastern coyotes in thick cover, I stand by what I said.  Your mind is closed- and I've killed enough coyotes to disprove your theory to myself so I'm not buying into it.   Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and all outsiders will have to consider the sources for themselves.

JRB,
I had you figured correctly when I posted the first truth about your "know it all" attitude. I have seen a lot of guys like you in my time. Those who know it all already, will never really learn the truth of his downfalls.  There is no man alive, who knows everything about coyotes.  That is the reason that guys like me continue the never ending quest for better understanding of the critters. I do know that you have to see a coyote before you can shoot it, which is why I never turn my back  to the sound source while on stand.  The screams are the lure, so that is where the coyote is headed. It sure would be embarassing  to see fresh coyote tracks in the snow, way back behind me when I walked over to pick up the caller. I hold no ill will toward you JRB. I'm headed to an Orthopedic surgeon the day after tomorrow. If he can fix my knee up so I can walk again, I will be back out there calling coyotes. Why? Because that is my real passion.
Good hunting to you,
Rich

Quote from: Rich on October 06, 2008, 11:51:22 AM
JRB,
I had you figured correctly when I posted the first truth about your "know it all" attitude. I have seen a lot of guys like you in my time. Those who know it all already, will never really learn the truth of his downfalls.  There is no man alive, who knows everything about coyotes.  That is the reason that guys like me continue the never ending quest for better understanding of the critters.

You've known me online for 7 or 8 years and I've spoken to you on the phone as long as 5 years ago... you've sent me emails and private messages commending my success and writing skills and now I'm just another "know-it-all"?   You've acknowledge my abilities and knowledge enough to ask me for help in understanding variables like Topography & Thermal Airflow... and I'm a "wanna-be"?   

This must be another Foxpro, I mean Minaska, I mean Foxpro moment for you Rich.  I've been the same guy all along- willing to learn and graciuos to those who taught me.  I've taken lessons from many guys you know and several more you don't: guys on a level of coyote knowledge that you will never reach- and I only hope too with another 40 or 50 years of effort.

Rich, you've narrowed your mind beyond believing that hunting coyotes here... and hunting coyotes there... could be any different.  You've narrowed your mind beyond believing that a guy who is more succesful than 95% of the callers in his STATE could understand something that you don't- even though you're 600 miles away.  You've lost touch if you believe cornrow coyotes of the 1980's and deep woods pressured coyotes of today are one and the same.   The basics will always be the basics: but the variables that make succesful callers succesful are not in a Randy Anderson video.


PS: I don't believe coyotes in the hardwoods are heading "to the screams" as you say.  I tink they're heading to a location where they can smell and/or see the sound source- via structure/cover/terrain that will keep them hidden.  I kill coyotes on their way to that location: not to a speaker.   Old timers talk about the way foxes, and even the earliest coyotes in this area, would barrel in "to the screams" but it ain't that way anymore.   A small percentage- yes- but enough to bank on?  No.  That crap apparently ended in the 1980s.

JRB,
You are trying to put words in my mouth that I didn't say. I never said that you were a "Wanna be", never said that you were not a pretty dang good coyote caller, never said that coyotes didn't act differently in other area's. You are the one who stated that placing the caller behind you was a good idea, and you inferred that those of us who know better were "foolish". Since you are absolutely certain that your method is great, no need to listen to anybody who trys to explain otherwise, just pass em off as "foolish", it isn't hard to see who has the "closed mind". Since you already know everything about calling coyotes, I guess maybe "Know it all" describes ya fairly well. If the shoe fits, wear it. I am old enough to be your Grandpa, yep, I have a grandson who is 27. Be kind to us old farts OK?  :roflmao:  I am finished with this conversation now. There are a few folks out there who actually want to hear good advice.

You talk in circles more than John Kerry ever did.   For the sake of accuracy... let's go back to the original quote in which you disagree in its original context.  Notice I didn't say anyone's technique was foolish- only the thought that anyone could know everything about a given stand was ludicrous.

Quote from: Jrbhunter on October 03, 2008, 08:15:39 AM
In order to never put an e-caller behind you: you'd have to know ALL variables on EVERY single stand before you hit the play button.  Foolishness.   Placement of a caller depends on the conditions given (terrain/weather/ect) along with the likely location of the coyotes your calling and finally including the wind direction and thus, the most likely path of approach.   To say the caller should "never" be "behind" you is inconcievable in calling Eastern coyotes.

I am absolutely positive that my method can be succesful here in the conditions described- proofs in the pudding- and I'm fairly certain these Eastern callers that generated this discussion in the first place aren't picking up much useful advice from your 30 year old cookie-cutter techniques on cornrow coyotes.  Yes it would be wonderful to see the caller and the coyotes approach and downwind and the escape route at the same time... but it's not possible here.

I'll go out on a limb and say you've never hunted this region of Indiana, nor the region of KY described in the original thread, nor many of the other Eastern states inhabited by those involved in this topic.  By your own admission in the past- you don't know the terrain, the cover, the populations and other variables we're dealing with. If you have hunted even remotely similar conditions- you haven't done it since the explosion of predator calling popularity took hold nor dealt with the public lands and hassled access that myself and others do.   If I'm wrong- please correct me- but these are just a few of the reasons I'll not bow down to your "age over experience" yammering.


You're making something out of nothing here Rich- and complicating this discussion WAYYYYY beyond it's value.   We've managed to type and argue for two pages about a scenario that comes into play in a very small percentage of the stands we make in my region.  That's foolishness.



EDIT: I was just made aware that this is likely the result of a "FOXPRO MOPHIA" grudge.  I don't keep track of who's on what team anymore... if I disagree with someone on any staff it's entirely coincidental that they're pushing a second rate product.   :roflmao:

If anyone is YAMMERING in this thread, it is the famous "Know it all"  JRB Hunter. I have never hunted Indiana or Kentucky, but I know and old boy down in Kentucky who has probably called and killed more coyotes already this fall than the infamous JRB has killed in his entire life. It matters not which brand of caller a man uses if he is just gonna turn it on and never bother to look at or around the area where said caller is set. Wow guys, JRB believes himself to be the Clint Eastwood of coyote callers. What a poor excuse for a joke.

Jim Champion,
I believe there is a "Dandy" arund here someplace. :)

Awesome story .........thanks for sharing :wink:

Quote from: Rich on October 06, 2008, 03:38:24 PM
It matters not which brand of caller a man uses if he is just gonna turn it on and never bother to look at or around the area where said caller is set

Oh come on now Rich, take a deep breath and think about what you're posting.  You are talking outside your experience base, about something you DIDN'T do 30 years ago.  The older you get- the better you were- right?   You're making something out of nothing, twisting my words and sliding this whole discussion out of context.  Come back to this thread later and read my post, word for word, and you'll find no basis for the comment you just made.

---------------------

Quote from: Rich on October 06, 2008, 03:38:24 PM
I have never hunted Indiana or Kentucky, but I know and old boy down in Kentucky who has probably called and killed more coyotes already this fall than the infamous JRB has killed in his entire life.

Now that your spin machine has slowed down... may I back you into a corner?   Who is this mystery Kentucky coyote machine- and what part of the state has he taken 300 coyotes in 3 weeks?  Let's go out on a limb and say you exaggerated- but surely he's killed 30 coyotes in the last 3 weeks right?  Any way we could contact him to verify?   :readthis:
 

I am a predator caller from Pennsylvania.   Here I always  place my electronic caller behind me and travel 100 yards down wind of the caller to intercept the Eastern Coyotes going from point A  down wind to the caller that is Point B up wind.   When I use the mouth call to call in coyotes I  call up wind and send the shooters 100 yards down wind.  What I am doing is making the coyotes come pass the shooters to the call.  I can't ever remember a coyote stepping out of the woods right where I was calling with the mouth call.  Most times all I hear is the shot down wind of the elctronic caller or my calling.

Even the great Dennis Kirk will tell you that predators will get in the loudest or strongest part of the speaker.  Where the speaker is pointed they will go to that first then circle down wind.  So I always point the speaker down wind and I make sure the shooter is posted where they will get a shot at the incoming predator.


The poster that passed on how he likes to use the bend in the road really knows his stuff.  That is a sure killer for all canines.  Best to get on the outside edge too since you can see the critter coming down that road hundreds of yards away.   Inside edge your going to miss his apporach.



You really have to know just how predators act in different parts of the country.  Someday I am going to hunt with Bigben and I will put the speaker behind me or I will call and send him about 100 yards down wind of my position.  Probably down wind on a  old logging road.  Maybe he will find a hight spot that he can watch cross wind of the logging road and pick one off as it passes his point and heads toward my calling up wind or my speaker up wind of his position. 

This is how I hunt red fox here in Pa too.  However grey's?  I  post just 30 yards away from the speaker,  Now that is when you have to hunt the speaker for sure.


Nice forum you have here.   

Almost forgot.  I have know Bigben for about 5 years now.  He is an safe ethical hunters.  One of those young men that actually made Eagle Scout too.   Yep what I like about his research he has done on some of the things I learned from him about shooting.  Shotgun patterns and special things to add to lights to make the night time caller more stealth and safe.  Yep here in Pa we can hunt at night time.  I would feel real safe with Ben calling for me up wind with a gun and me down wind 100 yards of his position waiting for the coyote to come past me on his way to see Ben's dying rabbit. 

Since you brought up the Spin Machine Jason R Bruce, could you please put your spin on this one for us?

You said, you had known Rich Cronk for 7 or 8 years on line.   You said, you had talked to him 5 years ago on the phone.

How is it Jason R Bruce, that there is no mention of a JRBHunter on the internet prior to 2004, and since Mr. C was a Moderator at PM well before 2003, how is it that you, joining in May of 2004, have known him for 7 or 8 years on line?  How is it you spoke to him on the phone before you ever even knew him?

If you are embellishing these facts to bolster your image, your knowledge, your skill as a hunter, please explain why we should believe you would not embellish other facts as well, and why anyone should ever take anything you say in the future with more than a grain of salt.

In addition to trying to make a name for yourself by misrepresenting facts too easy to check,  you seem to have a complete disregard for basic hunting safety.  I know of no experienced hunter who would advocate climbing a tree stand without a safety harness.  No hunter who would point a firearm in the direction of his hunting partner under any circumstances with the exception of attempting to dispatch dangerous game in time of emergency.   Yet you scoff at those of us who would not condone such activities.  

I do not see how you can honestly justify these actions, the numbers, or the statements you have made in this thread.  What you could bring to the table in any discussion will now always be met with "is he telling the truth or just trying to make himself look good again?"  You've severely damaged your credibility by not doing as you suggested.  It might be high time for you to

Quotetake a deep breath and think about what you're posting

.

Your rude and arrogant manner has now caught up with you.  I am sure you are going to try and spin it till the cows come home, but the fact remains, you are just another guy who will do and say anything to make himself look good in the eyes of others in a vain attempt to feed his ego.  

I feel sorry for you Jason R Bruce.  If you were truly as good as you would have us believe you are, you wouldn't have to try to make yourself look better by making others look bad.  You have squandered what talents have been given to you in an effort to prove to the world that you are someone, and, to an extent, you have succeeded.  Unfortunately it is not someone many of us would want to associate with.



Al

QuoteI think they're heading to a location where they can smell and/or see the sound source- via structure/cover/terrain that will keep them hidden.  I kill coyotes on their way to that location: not to a speaker.

I agree and anyone that has watched my video can tell you we usually setup for where the coyote checks up not at the sound source. This is from years of calling coyotes not a guess or what I think but from real world experience.

There are guys that find scat and tracks and say hey there are coyotes here. Lets set the call out there and we will set here by the tree line. In these cases a person should be able to see the caller at all times.

Then there are guys that see scat and tracks and spend the time putting it all together and know how the coyote is entering and leaving the area. These guys setup  and adjust there tactic's to funnel the coyote where they wont it to go.

If you set the caller out in the field at random and shoot a coyote at the first opportunity of a shot then you will more than likely not be able to understand what is being said here. By watching coyotes approach that last 80 yards you will see they are very predictable how they use the terrain. By using this predictability in your sets it will help produce more coyotes because you will make better stand selections.

QuoteEven the great Dennis Kirk will tell you that predators will get in the loudest or strongest part of the speaker.

This is so true!! I have seen several times coyotes stick there nose in the speaker with the volume turned all the way up. By having the sound pointed down wind and yourself down wind  is a win win situation in most cases.

QuoteMost times all I hear is the shot down wind of the electronic caller or my calling.

After awhile one realizes in my area coyote coming from up wind is 1 in 100 and I had rather have the 100 than the 1 any day.


edited for spelling

JRB, I'm going to give you a tip on photography. When you post a picture of a pile of coyotes, like you did on August 8th, and claim that you shot them, like you did on August 8th, you should turn the coyotes so that the trap marks on the legs are not showing in the picture. :roflmao:

Look close at the legs. That dosen't look like bullitt holes to me. :roflmao:
You've got about as much credibility here as Fanny Mae. :rolleye:
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k311/weedwalker/CoyoteHuntEdit.jpg)

I have seen that pic on another forum by another person.....I said the same thing.......Trap marks, clear to see.

Quote from: weedwalker on October 07, 2008, 02:45:17 AM
JRB, I'm going to give you a tip on photography. When you post a picture of a pile of coyotes, like you did on August 8th, and claim that you shot them, like you did on August 8th, you should turn the coyotes so that the trap marks on the legs are not showing in the picture. :roflmao:

Look close at the legs. That dosen't look like bullitt holes to me. :roflmao:
You've got about as much credibility here as Fanny Mae. :rolleye:
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k311/weedwalker/CoyoteHuntEdit.jpg)

Quote from: alscalls on October 07, 2008, 05:46:11 AM
I have seen that pic on another forum by another person.....I said the same thing.......Trap marks, clear to see.

OOPS!    :roflmao:

LOL!!!!!  This is why!!!   :roflmao:


Al, you're obviously an expert on credibility- seeing as how a swarm of suckups have kept you afloat and left you loosely perceived in this crowd as a legitimate predator caller.  That swarm gets thinner and thinner each time you try to take a poke at me, with emails and pm's and phone calls coming in to separate themselves from your squandered username.   It seems the backbone of your argument gets weaker and weaker each time too- all that remains is your venomous hatred of me and my success with few connections to predator calling or the discussion at hand.

We've been down this road before with the timing and dating of my JRB username and my appearance online: Mr. Cronk will not come here to deny speaking with me in 2003 about sponsoring a rendezvous with his calls (which he did in 04- thanks) nor speaking to me on an old forum for trappers and predator callers (Huntersite/Huntsite?).  He won't do it- because you've assumed the roll of aggressor here since he talked himself into a corner with the 300 Kentucky coyotes comment... you of all people know what its like to have your back against the wall Al.   Bait & Switch, duck & weave, spray & pray.  You've lived that way online for years- eventually ending up HERE to make your final stand in a community that doesn't laugh at you in unison (yet).  Every couple months you give up in shame and drift away into depression then resurface again full of spite- but we both know it's inevitable- you've put a lot of miles on those Velcro shoes.

On the issue of safety, I'm all for you and your suit of bubble wrap Al.  To each their own, myself and many others prefer to live differently.  I've seen you ridicule a dozen people on these forums in your true internet-expert way... with advice on safety and barks about dangerous situations.  The real world doesn't work the way you see on the Sportsmen's Channel Al... Harnesses are extremely rare, helmets aren't commonplace and earmuffs are near non-existent on hunters in the field round these parts.  Lifejackets, Hans Devises, Steel Toes & Hardhats all serve a purpose in some applications... but most of us in the real world take an assumed amount of risk on a daily basis and live to tell about it.

I hope the bandwagon gets full off that post- because it's certainly taboo to discuss anything but the most extreme safety measures on an internet forum.  Wouldn't be the first time my realistic approach and brutal honesty wedged me up against the rocks.  LOL!  Have at it!  Your diversionary tactics and apparent "side-bets" never pan out in these discussions Al.

As for the trap line picture... man you guys busted me!  LOL!   :roflmao:  Weedwalker, Alscalls & Semp you just put yourself out in left field with that one!  That photo is actually the property of a young man named Alan from Michigan that I hardly know- he was a client that I guided for two days and he snapped that picture as we wrapped up his hunt.  Great guy with a level head and willingness to learn.   He posted that picture on his home state forums, and on Midwest Predator Hunters, and I stole my copy from that thread.  I never took a picture of those coyotes myself.  He and one other FNF member watched each those kills take place in the field (as in bang/flop)... and a few more MPH guys inspected those animals (for 22-250 fur damage) when we set them up for skinning.

I'm sure ole' Woodard remembers those threads popping up here and there- further deflating his hopes I was all talk- or he would've jumped on this bandwagon of fake pictures.   He probably said "oh shit" when he saw this trapmark conspiracy theory develop because he knew it'd be quickly squashed like all his other loosely wound rants over the years.  Absolutely zero substance to the trapping claims- zilch.  (Mental Note) The only coyote traps I own  are custom built for live market trappers and you'll find that rarely does any coyote I trap have visible foot damage whatsoever.  A mark on that leg would make an $80 coyote worth $8 so live market guys take those offsets & laminating real serious!

The simple facts, I do a pretty respectable job of killing coyotes in my area... and I'm confident in where I stand on these discussions of tactics and technique regardless of who disagrees.   Truth is, Rich Baxter and I have probably brought more good solid calling discussion to the table here in this thread than Semp & THO have in their history of FNF membership combined.  Seriously.  This thread has been very interesting and worth the read: right up to the point THO saw an opportunity to try and creep back up that make believe ladder of his with the help of some conspiracy theories.  Now AL stands corrected, now the peanut gallery has egg on their face, and the thread is forever doomed.

Egocentric?  Self Centered?  Know-it-all? Cocky?  A little yes, but not nearly in the way it comes across online!  I see how my comments are taken, I understand that, and honestly it's not entirely accidental.  Why don't I just change the way I post and conform with mainstream predator gab?  Why not turn belly up anytime someone twice my age post in contradiction?  If I were here to make friends or build alliances I would do just that and avoid these discussions- but I'm here to learn from others and question my own methods in hopes of getting better at what I do.

You'll notice that very rarely, if ever, will these shitstorms attacking my character involve a coyote hunting related issue. They usually derive from someone's ego getting bruised, someone's ties to a particular product, or an old online grudge that someone can't let go.  These shitstorms will often be full of accusations about my income, my family, my age, false photos or my neighbor's cousin's ex-wife being accused of check deception. 

I'll take those attacks all day long- as they've lead me to some of the best coyote information I've ever seen.  Just last night I had great discussions about coyotes with two successful hunters simply because of the ignorance you boys have showed here- tickles me to death.  I scribbled down three ideas that I'd never thought of before last night, and I hope like hell they pay off at least once this fall.

Quote from: Jrbhunter on October 07, 2008, 09:00:03 AM
If I were here to make friends or build alliances I would do just that and avoid these discussions-

At least you have admitted that you are NOT here to make friends.   That's the point I have been making for some time now.   My issue with you has never been about what you know or don't know about coyote hunting.  Your narcissistic attitude and abrasive personality is the issue.  But you are only 26 years old so you've got time to learn.........the hard way. 

Good hunting.

Semp

I've yet to see you make a point in these discussions Semp- you've been a constant voice of emotion and a puppet on a string for Al Woodard over the last year or so and nothing more.  You've repeatedly argued my advice and tried to shoot holes in my credibility then looked up to Al with a puppy dog face waiting for a head pat- that has nothing to do with your newfound "point" that I'm not here for group hugs.

We all visit these forums for our own reasoons.  Some of us are serious about coyote hunting and enjoy the company of others of similar interest and various experience levels.  Some of us are good ole' boys that enjoy bullshitting with other good ole' boys and this predator calling website somehow seems to be a fine place to get the daily fix of socializing. 

A quick review of your "Previous Post" will show where your intentions lie Semp: we are what we are and I make no apologies for where I stand anymore than you do.  I hunt coyotes, I talk coyotes, research coyotes and I enjoy getting to know those who do the same.   I visit many other forums that, like here, hold a variety of friends and aquaintences in the predator calling world.  I have far more friends than adversaries in this crowd, I'm just one of the few willing to take the time and slug my way thru a good conversation on occasion while most remain silent and laugh under their breath.  Since this is the last place ole' Al Woodard resides... my posting here is like walking a minefield of emotional IED's that interejct diversions into otherwise great coyote discussions.  I'll take the collateral damage of Al's chemical emballance so long as I continue to learn more about coyotes and hone my skills as a hunter.

You're right that I have plenty of time to learn... and I'm grateful to be where I am in life.

CCP, and others interested in learning,

The technique of placing a shooter down-wind of the caller is not new, and it is a very good way to kill some  wised up or otherwise "spooky" coyotes.  If you hunt with a pardoner and use electronic caller, you would be wise to have one hunter cross-wind of the caller so that he can whack the coyotes that  approach from a direction other than directly down-wind.  When calling solo like I do about 99 percent of the time, you need to set up in a way that you can see the area around the caller. Search out small clearings like the one in CCP's earlier video clip. If you watch the clip, and read CCP's explanation of the wind blowing from left to right, you will better understand the caller placement I recommend in that particular situation. They had expected the incoming coyotes to check up on the hilltop which appears to be about top center of the video screen.  I would place the caller to far left of the screen, and about 50 yards out in the field. I would park my butt up against a tree on outside edge of the timber, rather than hiding inside the timber like CCP and crew did. I would do this so that I would not have to shoot through trees and brush when the coyote showed up. You do take the chance of a coyote or two catching your scent or seeing you when you walk out cross-wind to set the caller down, but  you always take the chance of spooking a coyote or two everytime you walk into their living room.  Someone needs to be watching the area around the caller. That is my best advice.  If you choose to ignore my advice, that is your choice. No hard feelings on my part. This will be my last attempt at giving calling advice on a public forum. I have learned from experience that giving good advice on a public board is almost always followed by someone giving BAD advice. Now a new guy who is hungry for calling information does not know who to believe.

JRB, Here is what you posted with the picture on August 8th....

Two years ago I had a client come in from Michigan in early February.  I'd had a good year locally... but that meant most of my productive farms had been pounded all winter so I was leary about our chances of getting him his first coyote in just one day of hunting.   I knew I would have to mix it up a little in order to put coyotes in front of him.  By using crow and hawk sounds in a series of wooded and partially wooded stands we managed to get him his first coyote and his first double that day.   He also put some lead in what was apparently the toughest coyote on the continent: we tracked what appeared to be gallons of blood before we lost it.   

I cashed in on the change-of-pace myself by killing several that got around him or came in on top of me.   All-in-all, we had a great day despite an incredible amount of calling pressure on those coyotes... and in several cases it was the ambient sounds that killed those coyotes.   There are a lot of factors that go into succesfully calling coyotes- even more factors involved in CONSISTANTLY being succesful.   There aren't any silver bullets out there that make things easy but as you develop more and more coyote knowledge you will feel like the stars simply align and things start clicking for you.

Here is a picture of the truck before my Michigan friend went home- the Red Fox and two of the buried coyotes were actually taken the day before he arrived.  I was on cloud 9 when this picture was snapped because I had just gunned down a 3 legged female on a farm that had been jynxed for me for years.  She came in 5 minutes into the stand- solely to a crow call.

Quote from: weedwalker on October 07, 2008, 02:45:17 AM
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k311/weedwalker/CoyoteHuntEdit.jpg)

Quote from: Jrbhunter on October 07, 2008, 09:00:03 AM

As for the trap line picture… man you guys busted me!  LOL!   :roflmao:  Weedwalker, Alscalls & Semp you just put yourself out in left field with that one! 

JRB you also used the same picture back on April 15th and claimed you killed those coyotes with squirrell sounds. I'm looking forward to another one of your exciting hunt stories with that picture again. :biggrin:
JRB you're so full of BS it's starting to drip off of my screen.

I guess I'm confused here... are they trapped coyotes or are you perplexed by the use of more than one sound on a day of calling?   You can't even pick a platform on which to argue.  What seems to be the descrepency?

It says right there in your August quote- as in the April quote- as with any time I've discussed that hunt- that ambient sounds and "Change of pace" distress sounds killed those coyotes.  That is solid calling advice from a productive late season tactic- you can't spin that out of context and derive any deception on my part. 

Weedwalker, you are apparently looking at the dark shin colorations on a couple of those coyotes and calling them "trap marks".  That says enough for your ignorance that no respectable coyote hunter or trapper has read another word of your post.  Do you think fur bruises? LOL! 

You dug this picture up from months ago because it stuck in your throat when I posted it and is lodged in your brain yet today.  You're not the only eastern guy that despises pictures like that, pictures that debunk the myths folks purpetuate on these forums about uncallable and educated Eastern Coyotes.  I have a few more that catch people's eye- but I'm not foolish enough to take those pictures without plenty of references and witnesses! LOL! 


After looking up his old threads on that hunt I have a couple clarifications- for those interested in the fact checking.

His name is Aaron L, not Alan.   He came in February of 2007, 21 months ago but not "a couple years" as I stated.  I killed 2 coyotes behind another hunter the evening before he arrived and the Red Fox the morning before.  That should clarify "a couple coyotes and the fox" for the doubting Thomas's.

Aaron and I killed 5 coyotes together... there were 3 extras in the truck before we started calling not 2... one was a nasty one refused by a furbuyer after the IPC.  Also, we called 9 in a day and a half he was here not 8.  He wounded one, I believe we both missed at least one, and my partner from the day before also missed one.

Here's a picture of the 3 legged coyote with a twisted up ball for a stub... in case that was also disputed!  LOL!!
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e72/wannabecoyotehunter/CoyoteHunt001.jpg)


Pick your battles a little more wisely Weedwalker.  You've just hit the end of your rope.

JRB, you posted the pics, not me. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency in your statements. I'm no expert coyote hunter, and unlike you, I don't claim to be. But I am pretty good a picking out people that are full of shit. And I have you pegged there.
You do a lot of typing to not say anything. It's like you have an overpowering urge to impress people with your fantasies. Well, I'm not impressed. :rolleye:

Show me the inconsistancies... show me the trap marks... show me some form of logic behind the content you have added to this thread.

 :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: I don't see how you can defend that pic. It speaks for its self. :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. In this case, it shows that your words don't mean squat.

Oh... now I understand where you're coming from!   :whew:





:sleep:

 :readthis:


I am probably the worst coyote hunter on all these boards combined. My 1st coyote came after FIVE years of trying. It would have been a double had I not MISSED the 2nd one.   :eyebrow:  I used a hand call for this pair. Now my 2nd coyote came about 17 months later over my FX3. So now I'm up to 2(TWO) coyotes in 6 1/2 years. 7 years ago this past June was when I started calling them. I was in a tree stand with the tape player speaker on the ground BELOW me. Which I believe makes it downwind correct? Within the 1st 3 minutes a coyote came up over the hill from behind & on my right. I'm right handed & couldn't turn far enough to get the shot. But I was hooked. Since then I know FOR A FACT I've called in 14 other coyotes because I have seen them but not gotten the shot. So all in all I've called in 17 coyotes that I HAVE SEEN. I killed 2 & missed one (3) plus the 14 I've seen makes 17 for the scorekeepers.

Now having said that you don't read ANY of my posts about how great I am at NOT calling & killing coyotes. I don't feel the need to brag to anybody that I've probably made OVER 350 stands with a Western Rivers tape player, a 416B & an FX3 plus many many stands with hand calls only. I also do not like to post pictures of my hunts. Especially with NO dead coyotes in them.  :nofgr:  Now I defy anybody to come forward with the numbers I've put up here & tell me they are worse than me. 

I just want to have fun & enjoy nature while I'm out. But I also never go out without a serious intention of killing a coyote. I try to do everything right but it's tough when you're in the hills with constantly swirling winds but that doesn't stop me from adding to my pathetic numbers. But on the bright side,, I highly doubt ANYBODY has made as many dry stands as I have & I STILL GO OUT & TRY TO KILL COYOTES.

So if anybody doubts my colossal number of futile attempts,,  I'm extending an invitation out to anybody that wants to see 1st hand how bad I really am. Stop by & we'll screw up a set or 3 in a matter of about 2hrs with driving time. And maybe even lunch in between the 1st 2 stands.

I'm done now & I challenge anybody to a duel of pathetic numbers of coyotes per stand/year(s) because I know FOR A FACT how pathetic I really am. I just don't like to brag much tho.

I gotta go now. My arm hurts from smacking myself in the head for giving away the best kept secret on the internet.   :sad:

:rolleye:

HaMer, With all the expertize I see on this tread I'm sure someone can help you get your Kill ratio up, sounds like you are doing a pretty good job calling them in and I sure you have had a lot of fun making all those setups and beside you got to spend valuable time in the Great outdoors, I'm sure you, VV and Bill can lay them on the ground.CC  :biggrin:

"Mr. Cronk will not come here to deny speaking with me in 2003 about sponsoring a rendezvous with his calls (which he did in 04- thanks) nor speaking to me on an old forum for trappers and predator callers (Huntersite/Huntsite?).  He won't do it- because you've assumed the roll of aggressor here since he talked himself into a corner with the 300 Kentucky coyotes comment"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I actually DID donate a few calls to JRB's site, and I may have talked to him over on the HuntSeek board a few years ago. I don't recall talking with JRB over there, but it is certainly possible. I had an enjoyable online trading of calling techniques with JRB and others on his Indiana site for awhile.  JRB is actually pretty knowledgeable about coyote calling. I don't know when or where he picked up the idea  that it is a good idea to place the call behind him where he can't see it, but it really surprised me to learn that JRB actually swallowed that notion. I didn't back myself into a corner with a 300 Kentucky coyotes remark though. I only stated that I know an old guy down in Kentucky who has probably called and killed more coyotes already this fall than the great JRB has called in his entire career. Now understand that JRB is just a 26 year old kid, so his career can't be all that long of a time period. JRB has a very large ego that he needs to stroke by talking loud, and showing disrespect for his elders. He is unable to admit that he may well be wrong about anything coyote, but then I have decided to consider the source. JRB has insulted me with loud and unseemly language here for all to see. He has inferred that I have a closed mind, and he actually believes that he has defeated me here. I have been defeated a few times, but not by the likes of JRB. I am trying to tame my temper these days. I have become older and wiser with my advancing age. JRB will one day learn that he isn't as wise as he once thought. I would love to speak with him face to face one day. Maybe I will get that chance. Things are mighty different in real face to face conversations than you see while sitting behind a key board.  :wink:

Thanks CC.  :biggrin:  The idea of a coyote coming on every stand is what keeps me going.  :yoyo:  I hope I'm there when Bill connects for the 1st time & when VV smacks anuther one.  :eyebrow:

I found the pic on WestVirginia Sportsman and that guy claimed he shot those yotes :shrug:
I gave up trapping a while back......But I have helped some kids get into trapping and I know a little.
No left field here, I think they have marks on thier legs...............and
I am 43 and know enough to make me happy.LOL

Quote from: HaMeR on October 07, 2008, 02:55:36 PM
:readthis:

:  Now I defy anybody to come forward with the numbers I've put up here & tell me they are worse than me. 

DUDE, I so got you beat!


I had this conversation the other day with some one and MAYBE THO will back me up. While burning yard waste in my fire pit, we  gotta play ring around the rosy to avoid the smoke. Any day any time any season it is like this. While watching my stack from the woodstove I notice the same thing 30 feet in the air. The smoke predominatly blows out in the north west direction but will change for short burst alot with in minutes. sometimes it will change and hold for a while then change again.

POINT? I find it, in my newbie, wet behind the ears, "should spend more time in the woods to learn" self that it is VERY hard to play the wind around here.

any ways, sorry to high jack the thread.

p.s. JRB did you ever get that wood stove that you were lookin for?

 :roflmao: :roflmao: It aint so lonely at the bottom now is it??

Browning204   

There is a scientific reason why smoke follows you around a fire.


~ from the RV Traveler magazine ~

Given the absence of, or very low wind, the campfire creates rising air and smoke. This creates a partial vacuum
(low pressure area) at the ground level of the fire with air moving in to fill the vacuum. If you are the only one standing
or sitting near the fire, you will block air from arriving to the fire from your position. Because air will enter the fire from
all unblocked sides, your area will be of lower pressure than the other, unblocked areas. The rising smoke will seek the
low-pressure area to move toward. This low pressure area will be where you are standing or sitting. This applies to
multiple people as well -- if everyone tries to 'get away' from the smoke, it will move toward them all because they
are blocking the inflow. It's hard to win against nature!"

To understand how wind currents work in heavily forested areas, you should spend some time on the net, and while you are at it, look at how water flows in a river.  It is similar to how the hills ridges and woods affect the wind.

Wind is rarely a problem here if you know how to use it and as long as you are not hunting in wide open spaces like on some of the farms with big fields. 

Also keep in mind that what is going on 50 feet above your head may not be what is going on at ground level.

Al

Al,
To get back on topic, would you put the e-caller on the low pressure side of the fire, or the high pressure side? :biggrin:

And Big Ben, sorry about the hi-jack of your thread.

Ed

Ed,

That's a tough one to answer.   While I don't have any hard engineering type facts to back it up, allow me to BS you.  My experience tells me that the placement of any e caller or other sound producing device around a camp fire is more dependant on the type of fire retardant material the fire watchers are imbibing in than the wind. 

In some cases, setting the caller or device too close to the fire is not recommended as it could cause an unsafe situation where as the fire watching participants, in an effort to escape the smoke following them around said fire could trip and fall into the fire, which could break the caller or device, and depending on when this happened, the fire watchers may not be sufficiently loaded with fire retardant material to put you out.   And even if they were, well, I don't know which would be worse, being burned or hosed off by a bunch of drunk coyote hunters.

On the other hand, setting the caller or device too far away, say like on the tree line, is also not recommended as sooner or later, the talk always seems to turn to misting, and if on the tree line, the caller or device is subject to being misted upon.

Based on these two scenarios, I believe, and again, I am not a scientist or an engineer, but I believe that the caller or device should be placed in an elevated position near, but far enough away from the camp fire so as not to be a trip hazard, and so that those who wish to try the misting technique can do so and use the excuse of walking over to change sounds as an excuse so they will not be noticed to have left the circle of fire watchers and can therefore go mist in private and peace and not be heckled by others.  This elevated position also serves to keep fire watching participants from inadvertently toppling over and maybe even falling into the fire as they bend down to change sounds.  I don't know what causes this toppling, but in the past, I have blamed it on the low pressure created as in the above post being stronger than expected.  Which is why I posted the above.  It is always best to be able to explain things with a scientific or engineering type explanation as it makes you look smart even if it is all BS.

These are of course just theories, and perhaps more testing needs to be done.  Perhaps a real world test could be made at the LBL this year and an article written up for the Journal of Coyote Hunting otherwise known as PreatorXtreme and published for all to reed.

If this is done, a large number of participants and several different types of fire retardant chemicals need to be on hand to make it a fair and unbiased report,

Al

What if the fire was "trapped" or some how contained before the positioning of said caller??   :roflmao:

OK sorry, just had to make an attempt at a joke.

As for the fire statement, This does not happen only when we are standing around it, while burning and I am collecting other things to burn, it happens as well.

How do you explain the chimney smoke? I am I standing near it creating a void 25 feet in the air?

I just think it is hard to play the wind around here.

Oh, I have a stream in my back yard, i will go watch it and maybe it will answer some of my many questions about life.  :laf:

B204, throw a pebble into the water and then by ascertaining the action of the ripples in the water you can achieve that which you seek  :wink:
                                                   The Dalai Nastygunz

Actually Browning, watching the stream might not be a bad idea.

Wind currents flow much like the water in the stream.   When the water hits a rock, it does not go through it, it goes around it.   The wind will do the same thing.  To an extent.   

The water will also bounce back and create a dead area right in front of the rock, trout fishermen know this a pretty good place to put a fly as current there is calm, but if you look closely the water actually goes backwards at times behind the rock.  Wind works the same way.  That is why a hunter in a tree stand on the very edge of a field with the wind blowing right at him, may spook a deer with his scent out in the field.  The wind hits the trees and bounces back out into the field a bit.

I said if you spent some time in the woods you would learn more than reading on this or any other board.  It's true.  We have prevailing winds here.   The more time you spend in the woods, the more you will understand how the wind affects the area you are hunting, so that when you have a specific wind condition, you will have a better idea of how the wind will be acting where you want to hunt, and you can either choose to hunt that spot or go to another one.

I also said that what is happening 25 or 30 feet above your head, may not be what is happening on the ground.   Use the chimney to teach you a lesson.

Get a marabou feather and tie a piece of sewing thread to the stem.  Tie that onto a stick.  Stand there and watch the smoke out of the chimney and your feather.  Chances are, they will react differently.   The marabou feather on a thread is widely used by traditional bow hunters as a cheap and very effective wind gauge.  It works.  I have one on my walking stick for just this reason.

It's also helpful to know how the sun affects thermals in the area you hunt.  Hot air rises.  Cool air sinks.   This is a huge factor in the mountains and valleys, and it can cause wind currents in fields also. 

You can learn to play the wind in New Hampshire by learning a little bit about how it works.   I was not being a wise guy.   Sometimes, sitting just below the crest of a ridge, looking down into a creek bed, even with a pretty good wind at your back, will leave the area scent free.  Sometimes getting on one side or the other of a mountain will lesson the wind effect here too.  Or a big tree line.   

I have no doubt that a guy could pick up a call or e caller and go sit in the woods with no regard for anything and eventually kill a coyote.   But when you get out more, and understand the areas you are hunting, you will be able to say

"the coyote is going to come here, he is going to stop here" and then, all you have to do is be able to shoot straight.

Remember that day? 

Even if the wind is blowing south to north there, it makes no difference because you are down below the crest of the land, and there is a big forest behind you.   Your scent goes right over the trail.   I have killed deer there from a tree stand and the ground as well as coyotes.  The wind is not going to blow those trees over, nor is it going to follow the dips and drops in the land.   It will somewhat, but not a great deal.   If you sat in that spot long enough, you would find that even on very very windy days, the eagles still fly up and down that drainage and just glide  - they are out of the buffeting currents because of the lay of the land.

If the wind on the ground was always swirling around, the coyotes and other animals that rely on their noses would go nuts.  There are patterns that you can learn and then use in the areas you hunt.  That is why I said if you get out more you will do better.   A million words wont ever take the place of a few days in the woods.

That's how guys find honey holes.   Not by reading internet boards, but by hunting,  And that is how guys can take you out and tell you that the "the coyote is going to come here, he is going to stop there" and you see it happen. 

It doesn't always work out the way you want it too.  But by learning what is happening in the areas you hunt, you will be much better off even in a new area. 

Do a google search on thermal wind currents.  There are some really good articles on some of the bow hunting sites that will really drive the point home and help you.   

It's not a Zen thing, watching the stream.   Open your mind.  That's a Zen thing.

Al
 

And for Nastygunz -

The pebble in the water is another great learning tool for hunters in big woods.  And it has nothig to do with Zen either.

You are the pebbel.  And the rings that move outward from it are the effects you have on the woods around you.   

You alert the birds  first ring   who alert the squirrles  second ring, who alert other animals  third ring and on and on.  Everything is connected in the woods.   Don't ever think for one moment that there aren't 1000 eyes on you the minute you step off the trail.   If animals will come to ambiant sounds, as was discussed in this very thread, then they can certainly be alerted by ambiant sounds too.  How often are we as hunters alerted to a coyote coming by a bird or squirrel squaking?   It's a two way street and the pebble in the water is a great way of teaching that. 


Al

What a "pool" of knowledge  :biggrin:

You know, I've visited your web page, such as it is, and read some of your writings.  Very nice.  I am quite sure we know a lot of the same people.   Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I know who gave you the casting lesson up at Archery Pond, and the muskrat fly.   You might have even seen me up there a time or two.  Not so much fishing, but shooting the long bow on the practice butts.

I was the guy who pushed the moron off the wood pier over the outflow tube into the pond one day for being a wise ass to Ernie and Doug.

That wasn't you was it?    :confused:

Al

very nice Al, thanks.

My stream joke was just that.

Good reading in this thread

Al,
Thanks for all the info on fire pit caller placement. It will come in handy at the LBL. Many of our stands are of that type of a set-up, around a fire.
And very good points on the misting. That is also a widely used technique at the LBL too. A hunter has to really be on his game though as some tend to fall asleep in the misting zone.

Ed

 :roflmao:

Quote from: Rich on October 07, 2008, 04:19:09 PM
I actually DID donate a few calls to JRB's site, and I may have talked to him over on the HuntSeek board a few years ago. I don't recall talking with JRB over there, but it is certainly possible. I had an enjoyable online trading of calling techniques with JRB and others on his Indiana site for awhile.  JRB is actually pretty knowledgeable about coyote calling.

I had forgotten about discussions on the Indiana Site- but you WERE there as well.  The calls I was referring too went to a calling contest at a local fur buyer.  Small gig, 6 guys blew calls, and I ended up receiving the prizes from Dan Thompson just two days before the contest.  The Howler you donated to MPH was fairly recent (2 yrs) and went to someone who won a contest on there.  Thanks again for your support there.

Quote from: Rich on October 07, 2008, 04:19:09 PM
I don't know when or where he picked up the idea that it is a good idea to place the call behind him where he can't see it, but it really surprised me to learn that JRB actually swallowed that notion.

I thought I had made myself clear, but I’ll try again.  On a very small percentage of the stands I make… stands in thick cover… when hunting alone… I PERSONALLY found it advantageous for me to be between the sound source and the coyotes likely approach route.   Let’s not complicate this- we’re now talking about 5 stands a year… maybe 10… out of hundreds.   We’re talking about a concept I devised for lack of something better, and surprisingly ole’ CCP has been doing it for years with great success himself.  Others have as well- I know only because they’ve emailed and called and pm’d telling me how far off base you are with your “ROCK SOLID” theory that the caller cannot be placed behind a shooter.    This is not a JRB thing- this is a tactic used by several successful hunters in the East and probably a dozen or more fellas reading this thread do it at one point or another every season.   This is not Cronk vs. Jrb – this is guys who know kill coyotes using a method versus a guy 600 miles away that thinks differently.   Period.

Quote from: Rich on October 07, 2008, 04:19:09 PM
I didn't back myself into a corner with a 300 Kentucky coyotes remark though. I only stated that I know an old guy down in Kentucky who has probably called and killed more coyotes already this fall than the great JRB has called in his entire career. Now understand that JRB is just a 26 year old kid, so his career can't be all that long of a time period.

My career is very short, only 10 years.   Your statement was very bold- so let’s not walk wide circles around it.  You said there is a man in Kentucky that has probably killed more this fall than I have in my career- so where is he and what are his numbers?  Has he killed 100 coyotes since September 22nd (First day of fall)?  Has he killed 50?   Has he killed even 25 in those 16 days?  I have serious doubts- so I’d like you to validate your claims and speak up here.  Otherwise, it’ll look like you painted yourself into a corner and are hoping we’ll ignore that statement.

Quote from: Rich on October 07, 2008, 04:19:09 PM
Things are mighty different in real face to face conversations than you see while sitting behind a key board.  :wink:

This is something I have never understood- why in the hell would things be different in a face to face meeting?   It just blows me away how many guys will make this comment… then walk up and shake my hand and discuss coyotes at one function or another.  It’s asinine to think that I would type something here that I wouldn’t say to your face, or on the phone Mr. Cronk, because there is a very reasonable chance that we will meet in the not too distant future.  I am a very easily accessible man and I have met probably a dozen folks who have made that “face to face” claim and left with a smile and a more often than not a new friend.   As a general rule, I type quickly but proofread thoroughly, so if I said it here… I’d gladly read it back to your face someday.   Hope I get the chance.   Make no mistake about that.

Rich- I know I come across just as you stated.. big head, big ego, full of pride.  Honestly, that's not the case at all... but I'm simply not motivated to come across any other way.  I'm a humble student in this game, and I continue to learn with each discussion like this.  My mind is open to all new ideas and I'll gladly try a handful of new tactics each season that I picked up from guys all across the country.  What you've done here is walked into a discussion on Eastern coyotes and hypothosized that what I "DO" with moderate success simply will never work.   Let's say your toilet continues to run after flushing but you fix it 5 times a day by jiggling the handle... who would I be to sit here 600 miles away and tell you that no amount of handle jiggling will fix a running toilet?  There are tricks to this trade and variables from coast to coast- you are fighting an impossible battle of convincing me that my methods haven't worked in the past.  That's where my confidence comes from- that's where my apparent "ego" or emotional attachment to my method comes from.  I do it, it works, and in no way can you tell me its less than credible advice for Southern Indiana and generally "EASTERN" callers.   Sorry if I offended you- but that's where I'm coming from.



Now, on to other business.

Quote from: alscalls on October 07, 2008, 04:40:30 PM
I found the pic on WestVirginia Sportsman and that guy claimed he shot those yotes :shrug:
I gave up trapping a while back......But I have helped some kids get into trapping and I know a little.
No left field here, I think they have marks on thier legs...............and
I am 43 and know enough to make me happy.LOL

First, I’ll drop a $100 check in the mail to the first guy that can show me the photograph of my truck and my coyotes on a West Virginia Sportsman forum where anyone other than myself claimed to have shot them.  I’ve never been to that site- and nobody else shot them- so I’m willing to bet that Mr. Alscalls is telling another fib like those he’s apparently become notorious for around here.  Disprove my theory and get $100.  Fair enough?

Secondly, if you had ever set a coyote trap, seen a coyote in a trap, much less HELD A COYOTE TRAP you would know that the shin colorations on those coyotes are wayyyyy too high to be markings left from the jaws.  I know, I know, this is elementary logic and I’m stooping way down to bring this up- but it is not only untrue its virtually impossible that those markings would be from a trap.  If you are arguing this- you're either railroading down an agenda or you're completely clueless (which means you lied about your trapping experience).

Factor in that half a dozen credible witnesses that either shot those coyotes, saw them shot or skinned them and your trapping theory is toast.  Add the fact that these photos and accounts of the hunt were supplied by a thid party- and you don’t even know who you’re calling a liar anymore.  Plain and simple- Alscalls has been called out and he has no choice but to post another little smiley icon and hope nobody notices.

Quote from: browning204 on October 07, 2008, 07:11:22 PMp.s. JRB did you ever get that wood stove that you were lookin for?

Yes and no!  I was researching to find the best styles and most efficient designs in hopes of building my own- and I’ve started phase one of that project.  I’m putting a double barrel stove in my shop made from two steel 55gal drums.  The stove for the house has been designed and material set aside but I don’t have the labor hours free in the shop to fabricate it yet.  I have a huge load of 8x8 tieblock stacked in the barn and plenty of hurricane damaged oak to cut up yet… hell it’ll probably be spring before I get it all done.

THO has done a good job of explaining thermal airflow here. I believe the understanding and recognition of those movements is crucial in hunting the terrain many Eastern hunters work with.  One factor he seems to have omitted in his campfire diaries- is where to position the dead coyotes from a days hunting.   Can’t imagine why that didn’t come up… don’t drink downstream of the herd and don’t sit downwind of the killpile.  They must not’ve pumped that edition of Predator Extreme up to you Yankee’s yet.  ;) 


First stand I’ve made this fall was 7am this morning… called three- killed this big chunky male.  I’ll give THO and Browning204 a full week COMBINED to match those numbers.  Anybody want to take odds?   :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:  You guys are too much fun!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/DriftersCoyote.jpg)

Jrb: "My career is very short, only 10 years.   Your statement was very bold- so let's not walk wide circles around it.  You said there is a man in Kentucky that has probably killed more this fall than I have in my career- so where is he and what are his numbers?  Has he killed 100 coyotes since September 22nd (First day of fall)?  Has he killed 50?   Has he killed even 25 in those 16 days?  I have serious doubts- so I'd like you to validate your claims and speak up here.  Otherwise, it'll look like you painted yourself into a corner and are hoping we'll ignore that statement."
--------------------------------------------
He is a member of this board, and has posted photos of several coyotes that he called and killed already this season. I won't reveal his name because although we ain't the best of friends he doesn't need to hear your unending rants.  You just shot your first coyote of the season yesterday?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/DriftersCoyote.jpg

The Kentucky guy is way ahead of ya son.  :roflmao:

Quote from: Rich on October 08, 2008, 03:09:03 PMHe is a member of this board, and has posted photos of several coyotes that he called and killed already this season. I won't reveal his name because although we ain't the best of friends he doesn't need to hear your unending rants.  You just shot your first coyote of the season yesterday?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/jrbhunter/Predators/DriftersCoyote.jpg

The Kentucky guy is way ahead of ya son.  :roflmao:

First, my season hasn't even begun (7 days away) so no that is not my first coyote of the season thats why I said FALL.  It's a preseason kill.  Secondly I killled the coyote TODAY.  That's two examples of your reading comprehension in one sentence Rich.   Calm the emotions down and read carefully.

Please do not lose focus of the question here either Rich- has he killed 100 in 16 days?  Has he killed 50 in 16 days?  Hunters in states that have no seasons or seasons that open before mine are obviously expected to be "way ahead of me" since I'm 7 days from even starting.   I have no issue with believing the guy kills far more than I do... a lot of folks do... I just wanted to see you stand behind your statement.   Anyone that says they're averaging killing 10-20 coyotes a day in Kentucky is probably using fuzzy numbers like the guy who said he called 18 adults on one stand and lost track of how many they killed.

JRB has already admitted he's not here to make any friends.  He's here to tell lies and more lies and piss people off.  

Let's see how he spins and lies his way out of this one.

Have at it, JRB.  Tell us a another good 'un.   :innocentwhistle:

Quote from: Semp on October 08, 2008, 03:26:29 PM
JRB has already admitted he's not here to make any friends.  He's here to tell lies and more lies and piss people off.  

Let's see how he spins and lies his way out of this one.

Have at it, JRB.  Tell us a another good 'un.   :innocentwhistle:

What exactly is "this one" Semp?   You're embarassing your buddies Semp... just wait until one of them pats you on the shoulder and gives you the nod.   Then come in barking.   :roflmao:


Please point out a lie, or simply sit there in silence and hope folks forget that you were once again pointed out.

Spin and lie is all you do, JRB.  You have no credibility.  But your ego won't let you see that.   You want no friends here.  All you want to do is LIE and play the troll.

So tell us another lie and post another bullshit pic but make it sound good this time.   

"I'm a humble student in this game, and I continue to learn with each discussion like this.  My mind is open to all new ideas and I'll gladly try a handful of new tactics each season that I picked up from guys all across the country.  What you've done here is walked into a discussion on Eastern coyotes and hypothosized that what I "DO" with moderate success simply will never work"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say that it would NEVER work. I simply stated that placing the caller behind you where you can't see the area around it is never a good idea.

"I thought I had made myself clear, but I'll try again.  On a very small percentage of the stands I make... stands in thick cover... when hunting alone... I PERSONALLY found it advantageous for me to be between the sound source and the coyotes likely approach route.   Let's not complicate this- we're now talking about 5 stands a year... maybe 10... out of hundreds."
----------------------------------------------------
I see that your tune has changed quite a lot Jason. At first you made it sond like the one and only best method, and now it is one out of 50 stands, or maybe even one out of  hundreds of stands? Interesting, but is starting to make a little bit better sense. If you go to same stand three times, and have the same coyote bust you from the same place every time, we are talking about a whole nother  problem. I have dealt with that problem a time or two myself.  I return to the area another day, place the caller where I normally would sit my big butt down.  Then I walk to one side some 50 yards or so, but can still see the caller. It sometimes works.

"This is something I have never understood- why in the hell would things be different in a face to face meeting?   It just blows me away how many guys will make this comment... then walk up and shake my hand and discuss coyotes at one function or another.  It's asinine to think that I would type something here that I wouldn't say to your face, or on the phone Mr. Cronk,"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You already know the anwer to that one Jason. It is pretty safe to hide behind a key board and insult a man. To do the same while face to face could be very dangerous indeed. I went to an Orthopedic surgeon this morning. He thinks I hve a torn  meniscus in my right knee. Tomorrow night at 9:00 I am scheduled for an M.R.I
If surgery is needed, I will be out of comission for awhile but will be healed up before snow is flying. I will be taking myself out calling before long. Maybe we will meet face to face one day Jason. Maybe we will. The more insults you make, the sooner that day will come.  I am very calm and collected right now Jason. How about you taking your own advice?

Quote from: Jrbhunter on October 08, 2008, 02:35:46 PM
I'll give THO and Browning204 a full week COMBINED to match those numbers.  Anybody want to take odds?   :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:  You guys are too much fun!

Now Jason, was that really needed? why would you drag me into this? I have all I can do to watch my stream and think about wind!

Jason R Bruce

Give recent events, and based on your dwindling credibility on this board, I have to pass.   

There is no proof Jason R Bruce, that you actually shot that coyote.  The picture could have been taken from any number of small obscure web sites on the net.  The picture could be years old.  It could be a picture of a coyote that a friend shot recently.   It could be, Jason R Bruce, the only coyote you ever shot.  I don't know.  We only have your word, and as has already been stated Jason R Bruce, your word, based on the photographic evidence you have posted recently is in question.

I hunt coyotes for the fun of it.  Not to prove anything to anyone else.  If you want us to believe that you shoot 100 coyotes a year, and that makes you happy, wonderful.  It is your choice.  If you want us to believe you are the greatest coyote hunter that ever lived, fine.   If that's what you want, I wont argue with you.  One can never win an argument with another man who has no integrity, because he just keeps changing his story, until, as in the photo posted earlier, it all unravels and comes apart, which sooner or later, it surely will.   So since we have reason to believe that your stories sooner or later tend to unravel Jason R Bruce, there is no reason to play in the middle.   It's just a waste of time and bandwidth.

As for this statement

QuoteThis is something I have never understood- why in the hell would things be different in a face to face meeting?   It just blows me away how many guys will make this comment then walk up and shake my hand and discuss coyotes at one function or another

I'm sure that most men who meet you for the first time and get a good look at you, just feel so damn sorry for you that they just have not got it in them to screw you up any more than you already are.     Most of us have a sort of "man code".  We dont hit women, children, or the mentally challenged.   Which gets you pretty much off the hook in a couple of categories if not all three. 

You, your ego, and your bogus pictures need to go find a new sand box to play in.

I hope you have a wonderful night. 

AL

PS

Browning204 - you are becoming quite the wise guy.   How is the coyote hunting going?

Perhaps Jason R Bruce, you will tell us how it is you come here today, October 8th, and post a photograph of a coyote that you, Jason R Bruce, claim to have shot today, October 8th 2008, when the Indiana Coyote season does not even open until October 15th?

Did you, Jason R Bruce, shoot this coyote out of season?

Did you shoot it as Animal Damage Control, and if you did, please tell us the exact location of the kill, weather you own the property or not, and if not, please provide some eveidence that you had, prior to the taking of the coyote, written land owner permission to do so?  Remember, proof.  Your word, because it is already in question, will not sufuice.  Proof that you are a licensed wildlife damage control officer will also suffice.   Scanned copes should fill the bill as long as they can be verified by an independant source.

Or, are you just a poacher?

Have a wonderful night

AL

dang this thread turned to a shitpile quick.  there is some good info in there for those that like to read.  but for the ones saying that those coyotes where trapped have some dang good vision.  I have been trappin for 10 years now and I could not see any disturbance where the jaws would catch a coyote on the paw.  as much as I think that JRB is cocky I hate to say I do not believe he caught them coyotes.  there seemed to be alot of chit throwin and when ya got someone that really does not give a chit who they piss off or on then it keeps going.  I aint gonna ask JRB to stop though however.  I feel that anyone has the right to defend their thought or opinion.  so with that onward.

THO I will get some pics this weekend of the first setup just so I can put your mind at ease about my safety.

George.  you have explained your way of callin to me in pm's and unless you plan on walking down the steep side of the mountian to call which is more then a 45 deg slope ya aint gonna call it effectivly.  and no place to park the whole way.  

CCP thanks a bunch for the posts,  ya helped me a good bit

uncle buck.  glad to see ya make yer way over here.  hope ya like it and stay a bit.

Rich.  I respect your opinion but I will have to tell ya keepin the call in sight has produced for me but I will never know what I might be missin if I do not try it.  the more I think about it the more the original setup that ccp posted makes sense.  I do know however that I would never shoot towards or anywhere in the vacinity of my hunting partner.  no coyote is worth it.

Quote from: THO Game Calls on October 08, 2008, 05:10:38 PM



Browning204 - you are becoming quite the wise guy.   How is the coyote hunting going?

Wise guy? How?

Coyote hunting?

Again, couldn't tell you. To busy with the kids and family, sucks to be me if I wanna hunt I guess.

But when I do hunt this year, I have a couple spots up north to try out. Some private some public. Seems like all the land around here has had claims laid on it already.  :sad:

There are over 20,000 acres of land just 20 minutes from you to hunt.   Public land.  I'm sure you could find many many places that would be productive.   No one has or can lay claim to it.  A fact which you expertly exploted by hunting the 1/2 acre spot you were shown within that 20,000 acres, time and time and time again.

That is just "not cool" as you would say.   It has nothing to do with laying claim, and everything to do with honor and respect.

Al

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.  ~Albert Einstein

:sneer:

Every dog has it's day. It only takes one time for someone to be less than affable to change a certainty.

Quote from: THO Game Calls on October 08, 2008, 06:05:46 PM
time and time and time again.

No Pissing match, that would be "not cool" but I must ask. Could you please explain the above?

As I said to you before, that spot I have hunted twice (2) without you. Once with Omega ( which you ran off of FNF) and once with my bro-in-law. My bro-in-law in fact which lives in Derry, owns his own business AND works at Logan Airport to provide insurance to his young family. He works 6 days a week, EVERY week. We needed a spot that MIGHT just might produce something so the poor guy can say that he got out, held his new AR and saw a critter. Soon real soon after we sat down and started to call, we heard automatic gun fire from that trash pit. Needless to say we quickly packed up and left to go to Chester rod and gun to kill paper.

First you give me the dickens about the spot that I am talking about and then you give me the dickens about the raccoon spot that you posted HERE for all to see. Nasty came in and knew the area. So to help me he went out and took pics and wrote about its location to help me, we have never even met but he tried to help. I know you realized your errror and I am fine with that but come on man, I can't remember the last time I went hunting other than in my Parents land and the powerlines and swamp than run along 28 in Derry/Londonderry.

Please don't say that I disrespected anyone, I don't play that game. Omega has got me access to TONS of private land WAY up off 93. He has gotten me night and bait permits for other areas up there also. All I had to do is E-mail him my name, address and contact # for the paper work. I didn't ask, he offered. I don't ask to go, he calls me when he wants company because I don't step on anyones spots unless it is " totally cool" with them.

I am sorry that we don't see this issue in the same light!  :shrug:

tho, I wont get into this too "deep".....but it wasnt me that you pushed into the pond which I heard is pretty "shallow" anyways  :roflmao:

Quote from: Jrbhunter on October 08, 2008, 02:35:46 PM

Quote from: Rich on October 07, 2008, 04:19:09 PM
Things are mighty different in real face to face conversations than you see while sitting behind a key board.  :wink:

This is something I have never understood- why in the hell would things be different in a face to face meeting?   It just blows me away how many guys will make this comment... then walk up and shake my hand and discuss coyotes at one function or another. 

Trust me JRB when I tell you that your day is coming.  :eyebrownod:
NOW, I know that a vaginal blister such as yourself will sue and have a man put in jail, but I reckon that's just the way it will have to be.

I will warn you ahead of time though. If we meet, DO NOT put your hand out to shake mine. You better swing and I do mean quick.
Not a threat my little Ceasar Milktoast buddy..........it's just reality staring you dead in the face.  :sneer:

When Baxter and I were in Kansas we met a guy that we had never met before, and upon discussing the Fins and Fur Forums, he claimed that he had indeed heard of us, but only lurked.

Baxter told him he should sign up and participate, check things out and ask some questions, that we'd be happy to have him around.

You know what his reply was?
I thought about it, but it seems like every other topic I read someone is smashing someone else for the way they do something or for what they posted about the way they hunt. It's like everyone is fighting with everyone. I really dont wanna get involved in that.

How many other people are lurking and getting the same impression? How long are we going to continue to do this?

And just for the record, there is no ONE person at fault for all this horseshit. There might be some carrying more then the next but, there is no one person.

Young person let me tell ya this......I saw it on there posted by someone else!!!!!! If you would climb down off your soap box for a second any one could see I did not mean you posted it.
I was not calling any one a anything I was just stating that that pic has been abused.
I am sure you know a lot about Hunting.......but after seeing all your hatred for people I would question your ethics..LOL
I have always thought those were trapped and I will sleep OK......
You take your money and get some anger management or some shells or something and enjoy OUR sport and support it...dont bash it :nono:
I am sure you know a lot...I did too....But I do know you will need someone someday and they may remind you of when you knew a lot and walk away.  :biggrin:<<<NOTICE THIS ......  :roflmao:  LOL
http://wvsportsman.net/smf/index.php?topic=1124.0 (http://wvsportsman.net/smf/index.php?topic=1124.0)<<<This guy even says he stole it.......see the date?
http://wvsportsman.net/smf/index.php?topic=4615.msg39982#msg39982 (http://wvsportsman.net/smf/index.php?topic=4615.msg39982#msg39982) <<<<<He claimed he shot em

FinsnFur ,

You are correct of course. I have said more than enough to get my point across, and others involved have said their piece also. Any further discussion regarding this subject should be done in private E mail or a face to face conversation.  I have decided to do the right thing and walk away from it.

I'm glad I took a moment to sign up for that blocked WV forum and read your link Alscalls, it appears you're being mocked pretty harshly and didn't even realize it.   If you think he was seriously trying to convince you he killed all "my" coyotes with a crossbow in one day- you're just as gullible as they hoped you were! LOL!  A couple guys were having fun at your expense... although I don't know any of them.  I do find all your calling advice on that forum interesting- I'll continue to check back on occasion in hopes of learning more.

This fight-talk is simply laughable.  If anyone here has cooked something up in their head, that was derived from the Internet, that you believe is worth fighting for... then you're banking wayyyy too much of your livelihood on this online atmosphere.  This is supposed to be an environment of fun and conversation and learning- nothing you take home at night and wake up with in the morning.  Geeze!  :doh2:

Bopeye, I'll paraphrase some of your friends and longtime acquaintances with "it's all he's got"... so I understand your humiliation from previous arguments we've had here.  You've stooped all the way down to being saved by Christ on a Sunday- calling me to repent and apologize for all you've wronged me- thanking me for all I've done for you- and now you're back up to physical violence.   You confidentially lashed out at THO about his imbalanced behavior and utter ignorance and now you're flying right under his wing again.  I give up with you bud.  :)  I'm sure we'll all cross paths next year at the World Predator Expo wherever it may be... or perhaps even sooner at a rendezvous this winter.  We're obviously both unafraid and confident so like all things- it'll work itself out.

Jim, I apologize once again if my part in this has caused trouble for your board as a whole.  Posting here, for me and a few others, is definitely a game of choosing battles.  I try to stick to what I know and defend only what I need too- but I'll focus even harder on that in the future.   I've pledged to remain only "reactionary" to THO's regular attacks on me, and I'll do the same with any new fledglings he takes on in his mission.  As we've discussed in the past, the ebb & flow will inevitably wash away the culprits in any community.  Not necessarily the minority or the least popular, but the turds always float in time.   You've taken a lot of heat from a couple "top posters" wanting to have me banned- and your integrity impresses me quite a bit.  Perhaps I was wrong to have questioned you in the past with other members, it appears you stand for your convictions more than most, can't hold that against a man.


PS: Yes Al that coyote was killed yesterday morning, and perfectly legally, by yours truly, but I wouldn't expect you to publicly acknowledge that.   If you'd like to delegate someone to come take a look at my camera phone's time stamp on the file... or the rotting carcass in my sinkhole... or the tacky bloodstains on my truckbed... please shoot me a PM.  Otherwise just remain calm and everyone will likely forget you've been called out again.   Thanks;

Quote from: Jrbhunter on October 09, 2008, 07:46:56 AM
  I'm sure we'll all cross paths next year at the World Predator Expo wherever it may be... or perhaps even sooner at a rendezvous this winter.  We're obviously both unafraid and confident so like all things- it'll work itself out.

Yep, it'll work itself out. I can assure you that the attempt I had made with you to mend fences will never be extended again. I look forward to meeting you.  :wink: